Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

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Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:24 am

I just wanted to know, what your thoughts are on, and maybe we can do a bit of digging in the scriptures about, Salvation.

Do you Attain Salvation Automaticaly when you recieve the Holy Spirit? or is it an End result?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Adstar on Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:03 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:I just wanted to know, what your thoughts are on, and maybe we can do a bit of digging in the scriptures about, Salvation.

Do you Attain Salvation Automaticaly when you recieve the Holy Spirit? or is it an End result?

I believe one is either in a state of salvation or out of the state of salvation.

If one has the Holy Spirit they are in the state of salvation.

Now can a person reject what they once accepted. Yes i believe they can.

Can people fall away from salvation. Yes i believe they can.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:52 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:I just wanted to know, what your thoughts are on, and maybe we can do a bit of digging in the scriptures about, Salvation.

Do you Attain Salvation Automaticaly when you recieve the Holy Spirit? or is it an End result?
Scripture teaches that you attain salvation before the foundations of the world when your name was written in the book of the Lamb. A true sheep can never fall away from Grace.

Doctrine of Election & Assurance

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:42 am

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:10 pm

Was John writing to specific people? or You? (Not ment to sound as threatening as it does haha.)


Salvation is the STATE you are in, completion of this state is at the end, if you abide in christ, obey ALL his words, and adhere till the end. You Have eternal life because you are IN christ. You CAN walk away from Christ. You have free will. John 6:67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.." He will ALWAYS give you the Choice.

Matthew 6:15 "but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Luke 12:45-46 "But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.(So this IS talking about a servant of the master...one who is allready a servent of Christ, in turn, Turning his back on JESUS and his fellow servants.)

Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."



1 Corinthians 15:1-2 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22-23 "he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Hebrews 3:6 "but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope."
vs 14 "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them"

Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels(so if you overcome, and adhere to the END then Jesus will NOT blot out your name...yes, fro mthe foundation ofthe earth your name was written, but if you leave, JESUS wil not stop you, if you live for self, Jesus will not stop you...etc)

If you commit a sin, and DO NOT repent of it, is your "salvation" Sure at that point?


2 Peter 3:17 "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

1Peter 1:5 "who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."

Romans 13:11 "Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed."

2 Timothy 3:15 "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


So Im PRETTY sure that the scriptures make it clear, that Salvation is the state of surrender and Rest in Jesus Christ, that you can leave at any time. If you fall into sin, you have an advocate with the father, adn then you are back in the state you were in, and its like it never happened. But if you DONT repent, and you saty in a state of sin, or unforgiveness. Then you are NOT abiding in the free salvation. and are instead deceived. At the END of the State of Salvation, at the END of the way of salvation IS the end result OF etrnal life, if you adhere til the end and find the Narrow door. It wouldnt be called narrow if it was inevitable that you would get there.

So a TRUE sheep can never fall from Grace. But what Is the ONLY sign that you are indeed a true sheep? Staying IN christ, untill the END. If you back out, if the fire gets a bit to hot, and you run to go "cool off" then you will NOT be in the state of Salvation. Right? YOu can ALWAYS get grafted back in...at Repentance. But its up to YOU.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:27 am

hi Rob!
all those warnings are true. and we have to continually watch, and examine ourselves, most definitely.

but here's the context of your first passage (not all who profess Him, or say they follow Him TRULY believe...they were "following", but we see they stopped following because they hadn't been drawn, or granted permission to follow by Father):

John 6:67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.." He will ALWAYS give you the Choice.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

look at Peter's profession - is that not ours, as well?

where would we go, Rob? why would we choose to walk away?

Jesus said Peter's profession was revealed to him by God!

is ours not also?

and here:

Matthew 6:15 "but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

do we not ask forgiveness continually?

if we do, if we know we need it, don't we know others do too?

but does this apply to ALL trespasses, Rob? Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to NOT forgive certain sins....do we overlook false doctrine for harmony? do we kiss the pope's ring?

and here:

Luke 12:45-46 "But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.(So this IS talking about a servant of the master...one who is allready a servent of Christ, in turn, Turning his back on JESUS and his fellow servants.)

this happens every day, doesn't it. people "lose" their faith. they say they USED to be a christian. or they think because Mom & Dad are Christians, or Grandma was a devout woman it applies to their lives as well.

doesn't peter say there'll come a time when people say WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? this sounds a little like the Dominionists...they plan to have christianity grow and grow. bring it in by force if need be.

are you saying Our Lord is delaying His coming? i'm sure not: looking around today looks pretty bad.

and:

Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

if i EVER lose sight of the fact we are saved by Grace alone, by unmerited kindness and favour slap me. The Bible is Christian (GRACE, unmerited favour and FAITH from Genesis to Revelation)

the branches are broken off due to unbelief. back to peter's profession: to whom would we go Lord?

and:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

have you believed in vain?

do you believe what Jesus and the apostles taught?

and:

Colossians 1:22-23 "he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

are you continuing in the faith Rob?

are you doubting? do you trust Jesus to keep you?

what are you living for? what are you hoping for?

and:

Hebrews 3:6 "but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope."
vs 14 "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

and, on your deathbed, will you still profess your love for Jesus?

will you be certain of where you are going?

do you trust Him? or will you get tired of being a Christain before YOUR end?

and if you are alive but persecuted or tortured, will you deny Him? or will you hold fast to "the end"?

those who don't do not believe He gives grace at that time (recall Stephen). they never trusted Him.

and:

2 Peter 2:20-21 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them"

so, what happened to them?

surely they didn't REALLY BELIEVE.

if they did, would they have gone back to their vomit?

and:

Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels(so if you overcome, and adhere to the END then Jesus will NOT blot out your name...yes, fro mthe foundation ofthe earth your name was written, but if you leave, JESUS wil not stop you, if you live for self, Jesus will not stop you...etc)

this is very interesting Rob....let's do a study on what it mean to overcome. is it you who overcomes? how do you do it? how do the saints oercome the devil in Revelation, even though they are killed?

John talks a lot about it.

love zone.

ps: are we not in continual repentence, daily?

we have an High Priest.

we sin daily. anybody who says they don't is either a liar or has no CLUE what God demands.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:53 am

I agree with EVERYTHING you said.


But to say you CANT walk away, is actualy calling jesus a liar. You Can.
Why would you want is the Question. But Jesus will ALWAYS give us the option.

And yes, you will sin, the objective is not to LIVE in sin. NOt to have unrepentant sin, and not to justify yourselves.

Not to say anyone here does those things. Not to say anyone here, will ever do those things.

But the "Hour of Temptation" isnt called that for no reason. If you feel like you will never be tempted heavy enough to deny christ, besure he will test you to see if you are correct in your assumption.

I just dont beleive in Once saved always saved. You CAN walk away. Even if you once belonged to him. If you TRULY love him you WILL adhere in him till the end.

However, its apparent that it is possible to walk away. Or even walk away and think that you ARE not, or have not walked away...


Now thats not to say that God Has not made some that are "vesels of Wrath" Like Pharoah, Judas, im sure others...Maybe Hillary Clinton?..hahah ok sorry, thats not funny. My point is NOT every one is going to get saved even though its open for everyone. And NOT everyone will continue in salvation, even if they were picked to do so. Why? Becasue of Freedom. If that was the case, if you were hand picked to be saved, and now nothing you can do would stop that, then you really wouldnt have to repent or really do anything. And God would Automitcaly forgive you.

Which is not the case. We have an Obligation to rest in Christ is we want to reach the finishing line. We are running a race, and we need to stay focused. if we stop running, then we never reach the end. if we fall while running, well we have the Spirit to pick us right back up, And Becasue God is Great and Mercyfull he brings us RIGHT back to where we fell as if we didnt fall at all, we end up right back to were we were...no time lost(though sometimes he needs to spank us before he puts us back to that spot) But if we are running and we fall, or even stop...and go, i dont know, stop for lunch or somthing...and nthen walk home, and NEVER finish the race, becasue we would rather do something that is comfortable, And we STAY at home, then God will un graft us from the vine, adn put the cales back, and our hearts will grow cold again.


Again, Not to say that, anyone here will let that happen, actually im positive no one would...but it IS possible.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:29 am

hey Rob.
yes, we COULD walk away, i guess....wander away in many ways.

the lusts of the flesh, the cares of this world, persecution, false doctrines.

The Parable of The Sower is the key to all that...let's do a thread in Theology.

consider this, regarding one terrible way to fall away - perhaps the worst....receiving the free gift, knowing it is all Grace, then turning it into self-righteousness:

Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gill's is interesting. always the reminder of Who this is about.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Are ye so foolish?.... Is it possible you should be so stupid? and do you, or can you continue so?

having begun in the Spirit; that is, either in the Spirit of God, whom they had received through the preaching of the Gospel. They set out in a profession of religion in the light, under the influence, and by the assistance of the Spirit; they began to worship the Lord in spirit, and in truth, without any confidence in the flesh; they entered upon the service of God, and a newness of life, a different conversation than before, a spiritual way of living in a dependence on the grace and help of the divine Spirit: or in the Gospel, which is the Spirit that gives life, is the ministration of the Spirit of God, and contains spiritual doctrines, and gives an account of spiritual blessings, and is attended with the Holy Ghost, and with power. This was first preached unto them, and they embraced it; this they begun and set out with in their Christian profession, and yet it looked as if they sought to end with something else:

are you now made perfect by the flesh? or "in" it; not in carnality, in the lusts of the flesh, as if they now walked and lived after the flesh, in a carnal, dissolute, wicked course of life; for the apostle is not charging them with immoralities, but complaining of their principles: wherefore, by "the flesh" is meant, either the strength of mere nature, in opposition to the Spirit of God, by which they endeavoured to perform obedience to the law; or else the law itself, in distinction from the Gospel; and particularly the ceremonial law, the law of a carnal commandment, and which consisted of carnal ordinances, and only sanctified to the purifying of the flesh; and also their obedience to it; yea, even all their own righteousness, the best of it, which is but flesh, merely external, weak, and insufficient to justify before God. This is a third aggravation of their folly, that whereas they begun their Christian race depending upon the Spirit and grace of God, now they seemed to be taking a step as if they thought to finish it in the mere strength of nature; and whereas they set out with the clear Gospel of Christ, and sought for justification only by his righteousness, they were now verging to the law, and seeking to make their justifying righteousness perfect, by joining the works of the law unto it, which needed them not, but was perfect without them.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Adstar on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:54 am

Strangelove wrote:
Scripture teaches that you attain salvation before the foundations of the world when your name was written in the book of the Lamb. A true sheep can never fall away from Grace.

Doctrine of Election & Assurance

I never knew you where a calvanist Strangelove.

No one can pluck us from the hands of God but we can remove ourselves from the hand of God by coming to disbelieve in the atonment of The Messiah Jesus.




2 Peter 2




15They have forsaken
the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who
loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he was rebuked for his
iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of
the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for
whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 18 For when they
speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the
flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live
in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are
slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought
into bondage. 20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of
the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are
again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the
beginning.
21For it would have been better for them not to have
known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them
according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,"
and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."


Peter says it has happened to them. Those who once had escaped from the pollitions of the world through the Lord Jesus have fallen away and gone back to wallowing in the mire.

The parrable of the seeds also shows ones who fall away from the truth.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:06 am

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

hi guys.

that passage is not talking about born again believers.

it's talking about the shallow faith, those who fall away, apostates.

it's talking about people who hear about Jesus, have a knowledge of Him, but haven't received saving faith.

people can get close to The Door, the Gate, The Cross, but never get there and truly believe.

again, the parable of the Sower.

i agree with Doc that when we knock He opens. and we enter in and can go in and out and find pasture.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:49 am

I wish I could get in on this discussion, but I've been so busy the last day or two with work.

Cant wait!

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:54 am

Adstar wrote:I believe one is either in a state of salvation or out of the state of salvation.

If one has the Holy Spirit they are in the state of salvation.

Now can a person reject what they once accepted. Yes i believe they can.

Can people fall away from salvation. Yes i believe they can.

You believe they can?

Ok but do you believe that they DO?

Do people walk away from genuine saving Grace? If they do, what does that say about the power of saving Grace and the power and effect of God's call to His Sheep?

I'm not sure what the problem is with this doctrine. Is it because people think that if you give in to the clear teachings of predestination, election and assurance...that you might somehow be promoting a 'license to sin' for Christians?

Is that why people struggle with this?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Thats any man or devil or power or ANYTHING. Nothing shall take a true believer away from Christ! What an overwhelmingly AMAZING assurance. I think I'll go out and get drunk every night and beat my wife coz I'm assured of salvation!



NOT. We know that a true believer will show the fruit of the spirit and not live in sin. See how it all works so nicely?

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:31-39).

Nothing can seperate me from my Lord. Nothing at all.

Can I make a free will choice to turn away from Christ??

I don't know. But fact is, there is no....way...I'm gonna do that! And if I DO end up walking away, then you can rest assured that I never had saving faith in the first place.

But I do! hehe....I am His Sheep forever.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Did you see that? Kept by the power of God! Not through our own efforts but by His power! What a wonderful assurance! I dont have to lean on myself and my own performance to stay in Christ. God does it for me! Oh joy and peace!

That means I can go out and sin all I want coz God's got my back! Ermmmm.....NO! Because I dont feel the need to do that. I wonder why? Could it be because I have been reborn a new creature? Question

1 John 3:14, "We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren."

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Praise Jesus for the confidence and assurance He has given His Sheep.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:27 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Salvation is the STATE you are in, completion of this state is at the end, if you abide in christ, obey ALL his words, and adhere till the end.
Wait, are you saying that upon belive in the risen Son of God we HAVE not PASSED from death unto life?
KingdomSeeker wrote:You Have eternal life because you are IN christ. You CAN walk away from Christ. You have free will.
No-one who has heard the call and TRULY believed in Christ has ever fallen away. It's something I've noticed many believers have a hard time with but thats what scripture teaches. If your name is down on the list then you are getting in. It's as simple as that

None of the scripture you quote is talking about TRUE belivers who have SAVING FAITH.

KingdomSeeker wrote:so if you overcome, and adhere to the END then Jesus will NOT blot out your name...yes, fro mthe foundation ofthe earth your name was written, but if you leave, JESUS wil not stop you, if you live for self, Jesus will not stop you.
Where does scripture teach that our names will be blotted out of the book of life if we dont PERFORM to standard?

I found this that teaches the opposite:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It's not about performance dude. It's not about our work. thats works based salvation. We live in FAITH not in works. We dont have to worry about the things we do to please God. We produce the fruit of the spirit NATURALLY. We dont have to TRY REALLY REALLY HARD to obey Christ.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

KingdomSeeker wrote:If you commit a sin, and DO NOT repent of it, is your "salvation" Sure at that point?
If you ABIDE in unrepentful sin then you are definately not saved. If you commit one sin in a blue moon, then we can put that down to a momentary stumble. I watched some porn last night for the first time in months. I used to watch it every night. I repented. I'm a repentful sinner.

KingdomSeeker wrote:So Im PRETTY sure that the scriptures make it clear, that Salvation is the state of surrender and Rest in Jesus Christ, that you can leave at any time.
'Fraid not mate. The scripture doesnt teach that at all. They are simply warning to those who call themselves 'brethren'. Scripture teaches that a truly saved individual is CERTAIN of salvation no matter what. Hooray...I'm off to commit adultery!



KingdomSeeker wrote:If you fall into sin, you have an advocate with the father, adn then you are back in the state you were in, and its like it never happened. But if you DONT repent, and you saty in a state of sin, or unforgiveness. Then you are NOT abiding in the free salvation. and are instead deceived.
Agreed! The trick is to keep your FAITH that way repentenc comes as a fruit of the spirit.

KingdomSeeker wrote:At the END of the State of Salvation, at the END of the way of salvation IS the end result OF etrnal life, if you adhere til the end and find the Narrow door. It wouldnt be called narrow if it was inevitable that you would get there.
Sorry, no. Theres no teaching I know of that says salvation comes at the end depending on our perormance. We ARE saved now! We have already passed from death to life at our rebirth. The only 'adherence' we need is to keep our faith in Jesus. The rest takes care of itself. There is nothing we can DO outwardly to improve our chances bud. The reason its a narrow road is because so many fall into the trap of thinking they can either carry on sinning OR simply 'obey' LAW without putting all their trust in God to get into heaven. Both these are on the wide road.

You have to trust God to KEEP you through HIS POWER alone. It's got nothing to do with what we do for our own salvation lest we boast!

KingdomSeeker wrote:
So a TRUE sheep can never fall from Grace. But what Is the ONLY sign that you are indeed a true sheep? Staying IN christ, untill the END. If you back out, if the fire gets a bit to hot, and you run to go "cool off" then you will NOT be in the state of Salvation. Right? YOu can ALWAYS get grafted back in...at Repentance. But its up to YOU.

Ok TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO TO KEEP MY SALVATION PLEASE!

How are we saved?

Excellent thread guys.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:18 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:But to say you CANT walk away, is actualy calling jesus a liar.
People who profess to be Christians can walk away. they do it every day. Because they are lukewarm. A true believer cannot and WILL not turn away from the Lord. Nowhere to my knowledge does Jesus ever say that its possible for one of His Sheep to fall away. In fact He clearly teaches the opposite. We cannot be plucked out of His hand. Not by any power or any man.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Why would you want is the Question. But Jesus will ALWAYS give us the option.
It doesnt matter what options we've got. It wont happen to a true beliver. We are predestinated to salvation. Don't you find such peace in that assurance? Isn't it so much better than relying on your own works?

KingdomSeeker wrote:And yes, you will sin, the objective is not to LIVE in sin. NOt to have unrepentant sin, and not to justify yourselves.
Nope. the objective is FAITH. To BELIEVE in Christ is always the 1st and foremost objective. We must always look to Christ. If you look to your own performance then you are attempting to justify yourself.

KingdomSeeker wrote:But the "Hour of Temptation" isnt called that for no reason. If you feel like you will never be tempted heavy enough to deny christ, besure he will test you to see if you are correct in your assumption.
Oh the testing will come. I'm ready for it. Never been readier. But the only ones who will fall are those who have no love for the truth in scripture. They are the ones who will receive the strong delusion. The ones who dont trust God to keep them.

I dont care what God wants to try to make me loose my faith. I know I'm a believer. I know FOR SURE that God will keep me through His divine power THROUGH FAITH and nothing else. See the confidence? Can you see how satan is not gonna get near me no matter what he tries? I have the assurance of Christs Word. Thats what its there for. So we can trust it!

Mate, you posted that wonderful testimonial of your friend talking about LEANING ON JESUS. This is it Brother! This is how you do it. You put TOTAL trust in Him to save you through His power and you dont worry about all the things YOU have to do to be saved. FAITH ALONE! Thats what its all about. Oh the peace and joy in Christ!

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

It's not us dude. It never has been.

KingdomSeeker wrote:I just dont beleive in Once saved always saved. You CAN walk away. Even if you once belonged to him. If you TRULY love him you WILL adhere in him till the end.

However, its apparent that it is possible to walk away. Or even walk away and think that you ARE not, or have not walked away...
You're contradicting yourself here.

KingdomSeeker wrote:And NOT everyone will continue in salvation, even if they were picked to do so.
Scripture says different. Our names cannot be blotted out. End of story.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres just no getting away from this.

KingdomSeeker wrote:If that was the case, if you were hand picked to be saved, and now nothing you can do would stop that, then you really wouldnt have to repent or really do anything.
I dont get it when peeps say stuff like this. When you came to believe in Chrst did you go off and make a list of things you need to repent from and draw up like a monthly plan of all the STUFF YOU HAD TO DO??

For me it just happened! I just naturally didnt WANT to get drunk all the time anymore. I naturally didnt WANT to smoke weed. I didnt WANT to watch porn every night. So I didnt!

I felt myself changing in the way I approach people. I found myself turning conversations toward Christ. Wow..I'm evangelizing the Gospel of the Lord. I didnt say to myself I really really need to start doing this or that....I just did!

I dont need to go and look up all the laws in leviticus to know if I'm pleasing God or not.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

And that coming from me a JEW!

KingdomSeeker wrote:Which is not the case. We have an Obligation to rest in Christ is we want to reach the finishing line. We are running a race, and we need to stay focused. if we stop running, then we never reach the end.
Are you talking about keeping the focus of our FAITH or what? If we lose our faith we will never reach the end for sure. If we lose our faith then it was never real faith.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
if we fall while running, well we have the Spirit to pick us right back up, And Becasue God is Great and Mercyfull he brings us RIGHT back to where we fell as if we didnt fall at all, we end up right back to were we were...no time lost(though sometimes he needs to spank us before he puts us back to that spot)
Right then, theres no need to worry then is there?

KingdomSeeker wrote:
But if we are running and we fall, or even stop...and go, i dont know, stop for lunch or somthing...and nthen walk home, and NEVER finish the race, becasue we would rather do something that is comfortable, And we STAY at home, then God will un graft us from the vine, adn put the cales back, and our hearts will grow cold again.
I'm very comfortable in my faith. Will god un-graft me if I only rely on my faith and God's power to keep me? Should I be doing more?

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Again, Not to say that, anyone here will let that happen, actually im positive no one would...but it IS possible.

No, not possibe. True belivers have passed from death unto life and can have supreme confidence in their salvation. The Word of God says so.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1
Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:


Last edited by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:23 am

Ok TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO TO KEEP MY SALVATION PLEASE!




Thats pretty simple. DO NOTHING. Again. When i say the things that i have said(The same thing happens to Zone, and happens to others i have talked to) You think that i may be believing a works based Salvation. Im not. You can work till your blue in the face. That WILL NOT Save you, The only thing that can save you, is the Saving Grace of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. HOWEVER, God calls us to be Holy and righteous. Nothing we can do of our own, In order to do so, we need to Stay in christ and OBEY. Obedience/Love(cant have one without the other) is THE Theme of the bible. Those under the lordship of Christ, do not get a free ride.

If I cheated on my wife(i dont have one...but for this conversation i do...her name is Wanda)

If I cheated on Wanda, and then begged for her forgiveness, maybe i even think i mean it. She forgives me. But months down the line, I cheat on Wanda again. She forgives me again. This keeps on happening. Am I actually ever remorsefull? Repentance is a complete 180? No? Now I KNOW God will forgive us EVERY time, becasue God is WAAAAY more merciful then even sweet sweet Wanda. But it STILL lays in our lap. Were we ever truly sorry? EVERYTHING is not left up to God, he DOES give us choices.

So WOULD his elect truly WANT to keep cheating on wanda? Would his elect allow himself to cheat on wanda in the first place?


Question: Annanias and saphaira....Were they Chosen by God? Are they with(or will they be with) the Father?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:38 am

Adstar wrote: never knew you where a calvanist Strangelove.
Well....as you know I have never been exposed to any denomination and have never stepped foot in a church. So...all my doctrine comes from reading the Bible. Predestination and assurance of salvation are in there. Simple as that

Adstar wrote:No one can pluck us from the hands of God but we can remove ourselves from the hand of God by coming to disbelieve in the atonment of The Messiah Jesus.
How can a true beliver in Christ ever turn away from that faith? Can you imagine it?

How weak must the power of God be that KEEPS His sheep. I know that I'm saved and I know that I will have eternal life. Do you?

Do you have peace and joy and confidence in Christ or are you scared and worry for the future?

Adstar wrote:Peter says it has happened to them. Those who once had escaped from the pollitions of the world through the Lord Jesus have fallen away and gone back to wallowing in the mire.
Sorry no! They had the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus. This doesnt mean saving faith. Read any orthodox exposition of these veres.

Example Barnes Notes:


For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.



Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ - Neither does This imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.


Adstar wrote:The parrable of the seeds also shows ones who fall away from the truth.
Please show me how.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:52 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Thats pretty simple. DO NOTHING. Again. When i say the things that i have said(The same thing happens to Zone, and happens to others i have talked to) You think that i may be believing a works based Salvation. Im not. You can work till your blue in the face. That WILL NOT Save you, The only thing that can save you, is the Saving Grace of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. HOWEVER, God calls us to be Holy and righteous. Nothing we can do of our own, In order to do so, we need to Stay in christ and OBEY. Obedience/Love(cant have one without the other) is THE Theme of the bible. Those under the lordship of Christ, do not get a free ride.

Ok but you keep contradicting. It IS a free ride. Our justification is a free gift from God. We only have to believe. Thats it. Nothing else.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
---
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What do you want me to OBEY that I dont naturally do anyway to earn the FREE gift?



KingdomSeeker wrote:
If I cheated on my wife(i dont have one...but for this conversation i do...her name is Wanda)

If I cheated on Wanda, and then begged for her forgiveness, maybe i even think i mean it. She forgives me. But months down the line, I cheat on Wanda again. She forgives me again. This keeps on happening. Am I actually ever remorsefull? Repentance is a complete 180? No? Now I KNOW God will forgive us EVERY time, becasue God is WAAAAY more merciful then even sweet sweet Wanda. But it STILL lays in our lap. Were we ever truly sorry? EVERYTHING is not left up to God, he DOES give us choices.

So WOULD his elect truly WANT to keep cheating on wanda? Would his elect allow himself to cheat on wanda in the first place?
The answer is, a true believer would not abide in sin and would never continue to cheat on his wife. He might cheat once but never continue. We all make mistakes (although adultery is a biggie and I could never see myself doing it).

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Question: Annanias and saphaira....Were they Chosen by God? Are they with(or will they be with) the Father?
Who are they?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:08 am

I ment Ananias and sapphira. And the are people who God struck dead in ACTS...i believe 4 and 5(maybe more than just those two chapters) I would explain..but reading it would be better...



And YES Its a free gift.


But WHAT does 2 John 1:6 Mean?

"And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it."

So love is walk according to his Commandments. And the Comandment is to walk in love.

So Walk in obedience. that IS doign something yes?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:16 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:I ment Ananias and sapphira. And the are people who God struck dead in ACTS...i believe 4 and 5(maybe more than just those two chapters) I would explain..but reading it would be better...
Ok I'll read it and get back to you.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
And YES Its a free gift.

But WHAT does 2 John 1:6 Mean?

"And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it."

So love is walk according to his Commandments. And the Comandment is to walk in love.

So Walk in obedience. that IS doign something yes?
Well you just need to square it off with all the verses that say we are guaranteed our salvation by true faith I guess.

We walk in his commandments BY NATURE. This is love. It's not something that we have to TRY TO DO.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Adstar on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:42 am

Strangelove wrote:

You believe they can?

Ok but do you believe that they DO?

Do people walk away from genuine saving Grace? If they do, what does that say about the power of saving Grace and the power and effect of God's call to His Sheep?

I'm not sure what the problem is with this doctrine. Is it because people think that if you give in to the clear teachings of predestination, election and assurance...that you might somehow be promoting a 'license to sin' for Christians?

Is that why people struggle with this?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Thats any man or devil or power or ANYTHING. Nothing shall take a true believer away from Christ! What an overwhelmingly AMAZING assurance. I think I'll go out and get drunk every night and beat my wife coz I'm assured of salvation!



NOT. We know that a true believer will show the fruit of the spirit and not live in sin. See how it all works so nicely?

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:31-39).

Nothing can seperate me from my Lord. Nothing at all.

Can I make a free will choice to turn away from Christ??

I don't know. But fact is, there is no....way...I'm gonna do that! And if I DO end up walking away, then you can rest assured that I never had saving faith in the first place.

But I do! hehe....I am His Sheep forever.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Did you see that? Kept by the power of God! Not through our own efforts but by His power! What a wonderful assurance! I dont have to lean on myself and my own performance to stay in Christ. God does it for me! Oh joy and peace!

That means I can go out and sin all I want coz God's got my back! Ermmmm.....NO! Because I dont feel the need to do that. I wonder why? Could it be because I have been reborn a new creature? Question

1 John 3:14, "We know we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren."

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Praise Jesus for the confidence and assurance He has given His Sheep.

All of the scriptures you gave about who is
unable to pluck them from Gods hands are about third parties. It is about
others being able to take you from salvation. Nowhere in those scriptures does
it say that you cannot remove yourself from Salvation.

The scripture i provided from 2 Peter 2 showed that the ones being talked about
had escaped the pollutants of the world through the knowledge of the Messiah
Jesus. That means they where saved but later rejected their salvation.



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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Adstar on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:50 am

The parable of the Sower




"Behold, a sower went out to sow.
4
And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and
devoured them. 5Some fell on stony places, where they did not have
much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
6
But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root
they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns
sprang up and choked them. 8But others fell on good ground and
yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9He who
has ears to hear, let him hear





Now for his explanation of the parable.




"Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
19
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it,
then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is
he who received seed by the wayside. 20But he who received the seed
on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with
joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while.
For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he
stumbles. 22Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who
hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches
choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he who received
seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed
bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty


So of the 4 3 recieved the Message. 3 where saved. But 2 of those 3 fell away from the truth, they left the faith, gave up on it.



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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:49 am

Adstar wrote:All of the scriptures you gave about who is
unable to pluck them from Gods hands are about third parties. It is about
others being able to take you from salvation. Nowhere in those scriptures does
it say that you cannot remove yourself from Salvation.
Is satan a third party? If you remove yourself from Salvation is it YOUR work alone or is satan at work?

If I cited orthodox scholarly expositions on those verses would you consider them?
Adstar wrote:The scripture i provided from 2 Peter 2 showed that the ones being talked about
had escaped the pollutants of the world through the knowledge of the Messiah
Jesus. That means they where saved but later rejected their salvation.

So anyone who has knowledge of the Messiah is saved? All who profess Christ are saved?

You disagree with Barnes notes on those verses then, that say Peter is not talking about saved Christians?

How about the Pharasees? They knew Jesus was the Messiah and intentionally lied and said Hs power came from Beelzeebub. Are they saved?

How about the Judaizers who tempted the Galatians back to the law in order to follow Christ?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:56 am

Adstar wrote:So of the 4 3 recieved the Message. 3 where saved. But 2 of those 3 fell away from the truth, they left the faith, gave up on it.

How can you give up on a faith that you never understood?

These are the ones who are saved:

"he who hears the word and understands it"

Apostasy doesn't mean an individual who understands the Gospel message moving away from that understanding. It means a TEACHING that has moved away from the true Gospel message. Modern chuches are apostate because they teach lies, not because they once had the truth and gave up on it. Who would give up on the truth of Christ crucified?? What does it say about the power of God to KEEP us if you believe that?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Adstar on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:43 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Is satan a third party?

Yes.

If you remove yourself from Salvation is it YOUR work alone or is
satan at work?

It's your work. In the end it is the individual that chooses to believe or to
cease believing.





If I cited orthodox scholarly expositions on those verses would you consider
them?

No more than i would consider what come from any other human being. And in fact
probably less. Do you think the most Holy Spirit guided men who understand
scripture get published and quoted the most? Or do you think that the most
published by the media of this world get there because there views serve the authority
of this world?


So anyone who has knowledge of the Messiah is saved? All who profess Christ are
saved?

The scripture did not just say they only had knowledge and left it there. It said they had escaped the
pollutants of the World. These people where saved.

You disagree with Barnes notes on those verses then, that say Peter is
not talking about saved Christians?

Well yes.

How about the Pharasees? They knew Jesus was the Messiah and
intentionally lied and said Hs power came from Beelzeebub. Are they
saved?

Where does it say in the gospel that the scribes who brought that charge
against Jesus knew He was the Messiah? I don't know where your getting
this from. Of course they where not saved. No one was saved until the Day of Pentecost.

How about the Judaizers who tempted the Galatians back to the law in
order to follow Christ?

What do they have to do with the topic we are discussing? Why do you even
mention them.


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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:16 pm

Strangelove wrote:

How can you give up on a faith that you never understood?

These are the ones who are saved:

"he who hears the word and understands it"

Apostasy doesn't mean an individual who understands the Gospel message moving away from that understanding. It means a TEACHING that has moved away from the true Gospel message. Modern chuches are apostate because they teach lies, not because they once had the truth and gave up on it. Who would give up on the truth of Christ crucified?? What does it say about the power of God to KEEP us if you believe that?
well said Doctor.
i'm afraid as Christians we forget how it was we ourselves came to be made alive, to see, and receive the spirit of adoption...DADDY! ABBA!

it's our jobs to continually proclaim the Work of Saviour -TO CHRISTIANS TOO!

ppl give up because they are not HELPED to make that soil good and fertile.
i listened to Rod Rosenbladt again last night (posted).

it's not his best sermon, but again: we MUST understand the Law's purpose - revealing our utter corruption and hopelessness, and to drive us to Jesus.

if we are believing in any way that we have any hope outside Jesus Our Substitute, then the trials of the world, the cares of the world, these things can lead us away in dejection BEFORE we receive the word deeply engrafted, equating saving faith.

what is saving faith?

understanding we are CONDEMNED. NOTHING MATTERS. until we grasp His Work, we will not understand.

we have one thing to do: BELIEVE THAT GOD, WHO IS LOVE gave His Only Son in our place and that His Plan is without our work (while we were yet dead sinners Christ died for us). if we had anything to do with it, it would no longer be RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY.

what we do with ourselves in the Love of Christ AFTER He has sealed us, as we turn by the Power of The Spirit is turning, turning again from the things He hates. we do this because of His work in us. we want to.

the final consummation of our redemption (though irrevocably secure) is realized ALREADY/NOT YET.

He does NOT HATE US.

He will not cast us aside.

we are only able to know and draw near and love Him because He has come for us.

any other message is incomplete. we HAVE TO HELP our friends who are coming near with this.

Doc, your insight here is GOLD. it MUST be kept in the forefront.

These are the ones who are saved:

"he who hears the word and understands it"


Last edited by zone on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:23 pm

Adstar wrote:It's your work. In the end it is the individual that chooses to believe or to
cease believing.

It's satans temptations that get you there though. The verse teach that nothing can pluck a true believer out of Christs hand. It's quite clear. What does it say about Gods power to keep His sheep if one can be led to turn away from Him by ones OWN power let alone satans!

Adstar wrote:No more than i would consider what come from any other human being. And in fact
probably less. Do you think the most Holy Spirit guided men who understand
scripture get published and quoted the most? Or do you think that the most
published by the media of this world get there because there views serve the authority
of this world?

Just bringing forth as much evidence and support for my position as I can mate, Your free to do the same. I'd be interested to see it. Gill and Barnes and Spugeon arn't printed by 'media' bud. Are there any well known scholars that you personally admire?

Adstar wrote:The scripture did not just say they only had knowledge and left it there. It said they had escaped the
pollutants of the World. These people where saved.

Can 'escaped the pollutants of the World' mean that they made an outward repentance of sin without actually coming to a true understanding of the Grace of God and in Jesus Christ? Did the Pharisees not follow the law to the letter but on the inside their cup was filthy?

Adstar wrote:Where does it say in the gospel that the scribes who brought that charge
against Jesus knew He was the Messiah? I don't know where your getting
this from.
What reason would they ave NOT to believe. He fulfilled every prophecy of the Messiah and performed genuine miracles in front of their own eyes. They commited the unpardonable sin because they were WILFULLY BLIND and LIED with hard hearts because they wanted to keep their power. They plotted to kill Him over it.

Adstar wrote:What do they have to do with the topic we are discussing? Why do you even
mention them.

Because those peeps would have escaped the pollutants of the world by performing the outward repentance of sin and would have had the knowledge of Christ but didnt have the UNDERSTANDING which is vital to salvation.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:49 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Because those peeps would have escaped the pollutants of the world by performing the outward repentance of sin and would have had the knowledge of Christ but didnt have the UNDERSTANDING which is vital to salvation.

in fact, the judaizers came from Jerusalem! they must have gone unnoticed by James and the others. their professions there (being ex-Pharisees) must have SOUNDED ok.

but their error was so greivous Paul had no message outside dire WARNING. if you begin to believe you are saved by your own righteousness (whether you do this in outward expressions like circumsicion, or some other religious pietism) you are falling away and Christ is of no benefit to you. we have those very words from Paul and the problems are exactly the same today. that's why the whole counsel of the Gospel is required.

THE LAW KILLS....it's meant to reveal our horrible condition >> not to reflect our righteousness under it.

Paul admonished the corinthians for the craziest and most shocking sinful behaviour imaginable - yet he still called them brothers (he warned them this too could be evidence they hadn't UNDERSTOOD).

the Galatians was another story...there is something completely aborrent to God: believing we are good. only God is Good.

He tells us our righteousness is filthy MENSTRAL RAGS.

do we really choose to present that to Him in place of or alongside CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS?

this is not a message of approval for licentiousness....why do we always go straight there?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:02 am

Our righteousness IS Filthy Rags.

His is Not.

And its pretty clear that we can STOP him from making us rigteous.

WE can walk away from the cleansing process, and go back to wallowing in filth.

No one said it IS aproval of licentiousness. But if you dont take steps to stay on the straight and narrow, you will fall off.

and THAT has nothing to do with being legalistic. NOR does it have to do with a works base salvation.

Why Does the fear of legalism, always rise up?

You being rigteous has nothing to do with your own works, if you are a follower of Christ. But you ARE called to rigteousness, and holyness. Not of your own, but of Christs. And to say that you will allways be a siner, but its ok becasue once saved always saved, is actualy a cop out. its lazyness. Our work is not the worlds work. our work is (beside preaching the gospel) is one on one with the LORD, our Master, Jesus Christ.

Jesus, tells us that we need to reach the narrow gate, its narrow because its hard. If it was hard, and we have to stay strong(and by staying strong, i mean staying resting in Christ) untill the end, then why would he tell us all that, if it was impossible for one to remove himself.

GOD will never forsake anyone. But its possible for YOU to NOT go the full, the long haul, you can ALWAYS back out.

And if your awareness of JESUS, is not more than your awareness of SELF, then you will grow to be lazy, you will continue to look at yourself, and compare everything to YOU instead of Looking toward Jesus.

We need to strive to be what he wants, and in order to STRIVE, we must do nothing. So HE can work in us, but if we are every so often falling back into the world with the "oh it not so bad" attitude, we rely on self, and then we arent growing, we are staying in the same spot.

And NOT ALL, but eventually when we stay in the same spot we get stagnant, and then we go backwards, and THEN its possible to walk away.

God is NOT a respector of persons. So that being understood, then whats going to keep you? If he ONLY bings salvation for a select few, then that statement is a contradiction.

If God is NOT a respector of persons, then what do WE need to do, in order to be saved? OBEY. Becasue if you DONT obey, then that is proof you were not born-again. Is obedience ONCE? Nope. its continual, and its in everyway.

So if Obedience is better than sacrifice, but Sacrifice is PART of obedience, adn you CANT love GOd unless you obey, then if YOU arent being holy, then thats NOT being obedient. And if you are NOT being obedient, then that is Sin. And if you are living a life of DIssobedience, but you THINK you are fine, then What is God to do? YOu like your opinion over Constantly asking Jesus?

1Peter 1:15 "but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,"

1 John 3:5 "And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure."

That DOES say Be Holy. That DOES Say Purify yourself. Those ARE works ya? That DOES say be pure and holy?

My point is, that if its a once saved always saved thing, then You would be AUTOMATICALY Holy not needing to be washed and chastised.

But you DO need to be washed and chastised, of which you CAN walk away from. and if you stay away from the Refineing, adn washing, if the scrubbing gets to hard for you adn you back out, and you start making your own interpretations for things...then you stay in sin...


Do you see what i mean by all of this? I mean maybe its just me, But i never quite got the Once saved always saved, or Calvinists..or whatever...

Its NOT keeping the LAW, its different, now you are keeping the law of the spirit(Romans 8:2)

No more Law of works ok i agree.

Now YOU being dead, rest in Christ, who is the sabbath.

But if your Dead, then that means you need to daily make sure you stay dead, adn you do that by resting in Jesus. You WAIT for HIS works to be done through you, you do that by constatnly staying in prayer.

You are not free to just be half the world, thats being luke warm, and lke warm is going to be spirt out of Gods mouth.


DO you see what im saying? it NEEDS to be a strictly Christ thing, and if its not then you are luke warm. Not to say that God is NOT going to keep at you, and try to clean you up, adn make you on fire for him...but you CAN back out of that fire...

Jesus makes it plain that the WALK IS TOUGH, however his yolk, his burden is light.

in other words:

YOU WILL HAVE TO STOP YOU, YOU WILL BE BEATEN AND SPIT AT, figuratively and litteraly, but you must continue to go through it. If you dont go through it, if you back out of the refining process becasue it gets to hot, then you are NOT on the narrow road anymore...or maybe half on it, and if you stay half on it...it would be batter for you to never be on it.

SO ...after THAT huge circular rant...Maybe im missing something.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:19 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:SO ...after THAT huge circular rant...Maybe im missing something.

Yes KS your still missing something.

WHO decides who is saved and who isn't? WHO is it that keeps us on the narrow road and by what method?

Is it us or is it God's power?

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)

You did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16)

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out (John 6:37).

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39)

Now, are you SURE you wanna be saying that those that God CHOSE to salvation and are KEPT by HIS POWER can then be lost by their own will or by satans or anyone elses power?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:06 pm

KingdomSeeker wrote:Our righteousness IS Filthy Rags.

His is Not.

And its pretty clear that we can STOP him from making us rigteous.

WE can walk away from the cleansing process, and go back to wallowing in filth.

No one said it IS aproval of licentiousness. But if you dont take steps to stay on the straight and narrow, you will fall off.

and THAT has nothing to do with being legalistic. NOR does it have to do with a works base salvation.

Why Does the fear of legalism, always rise up?

You being rigteous has nothing to do with your own works, if you are a follower of Christ. But you ARE called to rigteousness, and holyness. Not of your own, but of Christs. And to say that you will allways be a siner, but its ok becasue once saved always saved, is actualy a cop out. its lazyness. Our work is not the worlds work. our work is (beside preaching the gospel) is one on one with the LORD, our Master, Jesus Christ.

Jesus, tells us that we need to reach the narrow gate, its narrow because its hard. If it was hard, and we have to stay strong(and by staying strong, i mean staying resting in Christ) untill the end, then why would he tell us all that, if it was impossible for one to remove himself.

GOD will never forsake anyone. But its possible for YOU to NOT go the full, the long haul, you can ALWAYS back out.

And if your awareness of JESUS, is not more than your awareness of SELF, then you will grow to be lazy, you will continue to look at yourself, and compare everything to YOU instead of Looking toward Jesus.

We need to strive to be what he wants, and in order to STRIVE, we must do nothing. So HE can work in us, but if we are every so often falling back into the world with the "oh it not so bad" attitude, we rely on self, and then we arent growing, we are staying in the same spot.

And NOT ALL, but eventually when we stay in the same spot we get stagnant, and then we go backwards, and THEN its possible to walk away.

God is NOT a respector of persons. So that being understood, then whats going to keep you? If he ONLY bings salvation for a select few, then that statement is a contradiction.

If God is NOT a respector of persons, then what do WE need to do, in order to be saved? OBEY. Becasue if you DONT obey, then that is proof you were not born-again. Is obedience ONCE? Nope. its continual, and its in everyway.

So if Obedience is better than sacrifice, but Sacrifice is PART of obedience, adn you CANT love GOd unless you obey, then if YOU arent being holy, then thats NOT being obedient. And if you are NOT being obedient, then that is Sin. And if you are living a life of DIssobedience, but you THINK you are fine, then What is God to do? YOu like your opinion over Constantly asking Jesus?

1Peter 1:15 "but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,"

1 John 3:5 "And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure."

That DOES say Be Holy. That DOES Say Purify yourself. Those ARE works ya? That DOES say be pure and holy?

My point is, that if its a once saved always saved thing, then You would be AUTOMATICALY Holy not needing to be washed and chastised.

But you DO need to be washed and chastised, of which you CAN walk away from. and if you stay away from the Refineing, adn washing, if the scrubbing gets to hard for you adn you back out, and you start making your own interpretations for things...then you stay in sin...


Do you see what i mean by all of this? I mean maybe its just me, But i never quite got the Once saved always saved, or Calvinists..or whatever...

Its NOT keeping the LAW, its different, now you are keeping the law of the spirit(Romans 8:2)

No more Law of works ok i agree.

Now YOU being dead, rest in Christ, who is the sabbath.

But if your Dead, then that means you need to daily make sure you stay dead, adn you do that by resting in Jesus. You WAIT for HIS works to be done through you, you do that by constatnly staying in prayer.

You are not free to just be half the world, thats being luke warm, and lke warm is going to be spirt out of Gods mouth.


DO you see what im saying? it NEEDS to be a strictly Christ thing, and if its not then you are luke warm. Not to say that God is NOT going to keep at you, and try to clean you up, adn make you on fire for him...but you CAN back out of that fire...

Jesus makes it plain that the WALK IS TOUGH, however his yolk, his burden is light.

in other words:

YOU WILL HAVE TO STOP YOU, YOU WILL BE BEATEN AND SPIT AT, figuratively and litteraly, but you must continue to go through it. If you dont go through it, if you back out of the refining process becasue it gets to hot, then you are NOT on the narrow road anymore...or maybe half on it, and if you stay half on it...it would be batter for you to never be on it.

SO ...after THAT huge circular rant...Maybe im missing something.

i have to go out for the day and can't answer this right now.
but i intended to deal with this in depth.
i love you Rob, and my reply will not be directed to you personally.
but this is a serious error, and the suggestion of LAZINESS is completely offensive and shows you don't understand how we are saved, nor sanctified.

i'll be giving some personal testimony and Scripture.

for now, for starters:

BY THE POWER OF MY SAVIOUR'S WORK IN ME, I HAVE OVERCOME MORE SIN THAN YOU WILL EVER COMMIT.

and if you think that's been easy, and that people who BELIEVE that God saves to the uttermost those that are His are lazy, i'm bringing that error to an end later today.

Holiness AoG Pentecostal errors have hurt more people than you know.

love you
zone.

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