Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:26 pm

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
Yes, God chose us. Its AMAZING to think of A God, who created us, saw what we would become, and still give us blessing and Jesus, adn more blessings, and protection! Its AMAZING we dont deserve it!


But this has nothing to do with US chosing to leave his love, becasue of our own pride. We can think we are doing the will of God, and just be doing the will of what we THINK God would want. If we dont ask, we wont know. If we arent Seeking the kingdom(hehe...thats my name! Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rigteousness) We need to be CONSTANTLY seeking Jesus. if not, then that is OUR deseicion.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
...I never said God hasnt Chosen you. HE HAS. I also never said that God has not chosen from the the begining. HE HAS. So Election, AND, eternal election is TRUE.

Now MY point, is that Personal election is true as well. WE choose to meet God at his free Gift. THAT is why he will destroy this world. THAT is why he will completely abolish this WORLD, becasue to NOT choose Jesus, or to "Choose" to accept him, yet still live for yourself, thinking that you have some free ticket to gloryland...is MORE evil then Israel.
Your point is: YOU CAN'T WALK AWAY. My point is: YES, YOU CAN WALK AWAY.


You did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16)

Jesus chose these 12 to be APOSTLES not disciples...Jesus tells US what to do to be disciples. But HE picks who will be APOSTLES(or prophets...etc)
Ephesians 4:7-11
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out (John 6:37). Yes, all that God brings to Jesus, Jesus would NEVER turn away. But YOU can walk away, or dissobey and continue in dissobediance, if GOD sees that you WILL turn back to him, he will chastise you untill you do...but if God sees that you will never, he will harden your heart, and its all YOUR fault. Its a CHOICE, to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Jesus, DAILY. If you dont do that, you are NOT his disciple. ...or if you STOP doing it, and turn away, you walk out from the provision.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Yup we are kept by the Holy spirit(the life boat) through faith(something WE stay in...i proved that by the verses above) unto Salvation that is going to be revealed IN THE LAST TIME. End result.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39) Everyone that beleives on him, he will Keep. it takes a Choice to belive or not. GOD forknew WHO would CHOOSE Jesus. And who would NOT choose Jesus. But then after this, Jesus STILL gives them a choice "So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” john 6:67"

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:27 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:YOU. Its UP to You. if YOU want to get out from the provision of the holy spirit YOU can. YOU.

see the difference?

You admit its an impossibility Rob.

Am I more powerful than God that I can escape from His loving embrace?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:01 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
Yes, God chose us. Its AMAZING to think of A God, who created us, saw what we would become, and still give us blessing and Jesus, adn more blessings, and protection! Its AMAZING we dont deserve it!


But this has nothing to do with US chosing to leave his love, becasue of our own pride. We can think we are doing the will of God, and just be doing the will of what we THINK God would want. If we dont ask, we wont know. If we arent Seeking the kingdom(hehe...thats my name! Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rigteousness) We need to be CONSTANTLY seeking Jesus. if not, then that is OUR deseicion.

We are not going to CHOOSE to leave His love, if our love is real. If we have true saving faith...we WILL NOT CHOOSE to leave. Can you grasp that concept? You even admitted it. We cannot leave Jesus BECAUSE WE WONT. Do you see how it works?

KingdomSeeker wrote:But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
...I never said God hasnt Chosen you. HE HAS. I also never said that God has not chosen from the the begining. HE HAS. So Election, AND, eternal election is TRUE.

Now MY point, is that Personal election is true as well. WE choose to meet God at his free Gift. THAT is why he will destroy this world. THAT is why he will completely abolish this WORLD, becasue to NOT choose Jesus, or to "Choose" to accept him, yet still live for yourself, thinking that you have some free ticket to gloryland...is MORE evil then Israel.
Your point is: YOU CAN'T WALK AWAY. My point is: YES, YOU CAN WALK AWAY.


My point is: YOU WOULD NEVER CHOOSE TO WALK AWAY. Your point is: ?? YOU WOULD? WHY?

Cant you see that IF you chose to walk away from Jesus then you obviously never had true faith. Because true saving faith is just that...SAVING.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Jesus chose these 12 to be APOSTLES not disciples...Jesus tells US what to do to be disciples. But HE picks who will be APOSTLES(or prophets...etc)

Forget about Apostles,,,what about the Thesselonians Paul addresses?

"God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13)

If you are saved (you should know) then you were chosen by God from the beginning and you WILL remain saved. Becasue Jesus loses none who God gives him.

What a GREAT assurance! I think I'll go out and sin loads! NOT! cyclops

KingdomSeeker wrote:All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out (John 6:37). Yes, all that God brings to Jesus, Jesus would NEVER turn away. But YOU can walk away, or dissobey and continue in dissobediance, if GOD sees that you WILL turn back to him, he will chastise you untill you do...but if God sees that you will never, he will harden your heart, and its all YOUR fault. Its a CHOICE, to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Jesus, DAILY. If you dont do that, you are NOT his disciple. ...or if you STOP doing it, and turn away, you walk out from the provision.

Rob, your not making any sense. You've already said that you are sure of your salvation.

Jesus says He will not cast out any. Do you know what that means? It means HE WILL NOT CAST OUT ANY! No matter what you do, He will keep you to His bosom becasue of FAITH!

You say...if you come to Jesus and then you are dissobedient then Jesus will cast you away.

Jesus says.. the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out

Did he say...the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out [unless he is really disobedient] ??

You are directly contradicting our Kings own Words.

KingdomSeeker wrote:1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Yup we are kept by the Holy spirit(the life boat) through faith(something WE stay in...i proved that by the verses above) unto Salvation that is going to be revealed IN THE LAST TIME. End result.

So is the will of man stronger than the power of God that he can simply walk out of his faith?

The REVEALING is the end result. Not the salvation!

KingdomSeeker wrote:And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39) Everyone that beleives on him, he will Keep. it takes a Choice to belive or not. GOD forknew WHO would CHOOSE Jesus. And who would NOT choose Jesus. But then after this, Jesus STILL gives them a choice "So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” john 6:67"

Look you JUST SAID IT AGAIN. What are we debating about?

If you want to call it YOUR choice to have faith in Him then go ahead. I'm saying that EVERY good thing I have is a gift from God. Including the understanding and knowledge and perseverance that He gave me that ALLOWED me to choose Him (so essentially faith is A GIFT).

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Please wrap your ahead around this Rob. ALL GLORY MUST GO TO GOD.

Jesus asks the question to the twelve, and indeed to ALL Christians. And the ones who answer yes, and would walk away...never had the true faith. The ones who answer no...are..and always have been...His sheep to keep.

Doc.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Jesus asks the question to the twelve, and indeed to ALL Christians. And the ones who answer yes, and would walk away...never had the true faith. The ones who answer no...are..and always have been...His sheep to keep.

Ok agreed.

I have ALWAYS seen what you were saying Doc, and i DO agree with you.

But this is my LAST Question.

Do you think there will be ones, who Wont EVER walk away from Jesus, yet still not go to heaven becasue they did not have a relationship with him?

Jesus will tell people "Go away I never knew you" they prophesied in his name, cast out demons.

They "kept the faith" they never "walked away" they confessed Jesus with there mouth unill they died.

So WHY, will Jesus tell them to go away? were these people who did not have the spirit? if they didnt have the spirit they wouldnt be able to cast out demons would they? so there technicaly WAS something they did to, in there heart, walk away from God...or never was close to God in the first place...

So, This is the last one buddy...hahah i promise...

Maybe im still just confused on a some things...

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:18 pm

The following is excerpted from the book, "How Can I Except Some Man Should Guide Me? A Plan and Program for Bringing Children to Faith in Jesus Christ," Pastor Kerry James Allen, Copyright 1996, Fox River Baptist Church, Box 1094, Oswego, IL. 60543. This gives some good, solid evidences of a person who has been born again.

Jesus said, "By their fruits shall ye know them." Examine yourself against these criteria. The article on this site "Who are You?" is devoted to this same topic. God does not leave us out in the dark on this thing
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
We are not saved by our works, but when we are saved, our life will certainly reflect that decision by our good works. ("Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2:17.) Do you have total 100% assurance that you possess eternal life, and if someone asked you to prove it to them from a Bible, could you do it?

DO YOU SHOW EVIDENCES OF SPIRITUAL LIFE?

Following are ten evidences the true believer in Jesus Christ possesses, all from the epistle of First John. These are what Jonathan Edwards called "holy affections." Please read these pages, and ask yourself how many of these are manifested in your life. If you don't have that kind of evidence and assurance, please seek someone out who can help you, or give us a call.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you ... and things that accompany salvation..." Hebrews 6:9

I. SUBMISSIVE RESPECT
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:).

Do you respect God? Is your opinion just as important or even more relevant than His? Are God's pronouncements authoritative in your life? Is Jesus Christ your Lord?

II. SCRIPTURE OBEDIENCE
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5).

Do you read the Bible daily? Do you read the Scriptures seeking to obey what you find? Are you in rebellion against God's Word or in submission to it? Do you love the Bible?

III. SOCIETAL REJECTION
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 John 2:15).

Do you love the world, your money, and your possessions? Do they mean more to you than Jesus Christ and His approval? Would you be willing to give up all for Christ?

IV. STEADFAST FAITHFULNESS
"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).

Are you faithful in regular fellowship with God's people in a local church? Are you able to be sparse in church attendance for weeks at a time without any real guilt about it? Do you long for fellowship with the saints in the assembly?

V. SECOND COMING ANTICIPATION
"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3).

Are you living in the daily awareness that Jesus Christ will return for His own? Are you eagerly looking forward to His coming for you? Does your daily life reflect the fact that He may come today? Are you ready to meet Him at any time?

VI. SIN SENSITIVITY
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9).

Does your sin bother you? Do you wish you sinned less than you do? Are you sinning less now than when you first made a profession of faith in Christ? Do you enjoy your sin, or does it affect your happiness? Do you realize God sees all sin?

VII. SIBLING LOVE
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death" (1 John 3:14).

Do you love other believers in Jesus Christ? Do you enjoy being in their company, or would you rather be with the people of the world? Are Christians your dearest friends?

VIII. SUPPLICATIONS ANSWERED
"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" (1 John 3:22).

Do you pray? Can you point to specific answers that could have come from no one but God? Do you find yourself conversing regularly with God as a trusted friend?

IX. SHARP DISCERNMENT
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

Do you find it easy to sort out the claims of various religions? Do you see all religions as the same? Do you understand the doctrine of Christ? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

X. SPIRIT AWARENESS
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13).

Do you have a conscious awareness that the Holy Spirit of God lives in you? Does He teach you things from the Scriptures on a regular basis? Does the Holy Spirit convict you when you sin, or can you sin with abandon?

http://jesusisthelight.net/EVIDENCE.htm
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Ok agreed.

I have ALWAYS seen what you were saying Doc, and i DO agree with you.

But this is my LAST Question.

Do you think there will be ones, who Wont EVER walk away from Jesus, yet still not go to heaven becasue they did not have a relationship with him?

Very Happy Suspect After the tenth reading of that riddle....I'm gonna answer,....erm....no? Because the people you talk of CANT walk away from Jesus coz they never knew Him and He never knew them. You cant walk away from someone you never had a relationship with.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Jesus will tell people "Go away I never knew you" they prophesied in his name, cast out demons.

They "kept the faith" they never "walked away" they confessed Jesus with there mouth unill they died.

So WHY, will Jesus tell them to go away? were these people who did not have the spirit? if they didnt have the spirit they wouldnt be able to cast out demons would they? so there technicaly WAS something they did to, in there heart, walk away from God...or never was close to God in the first place...

never was close to God in the first place.

They SAID they cast out demons in His name! Just like the charismatics and Pentecostals SAY they have supernatural abilities to do all kinds of stuff in Jesus name, but its just an illusion. They dont have a true understanding of the Gospel. Jesus never knew them.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
So, This is the last one buddy...hahah i promise...

Maybe im still just confused on a some things...

It's not the easiest concept to grasp especially, I imagine, if you've been churched a certain way.

Stick with it Bruv.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Son of Israel on Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:53 pm

My son Jonathan has chosen to walk away from Jesus.
He is the only man I have personally known to ever do that.
He was baptized in 1993 and just like you and me, "saved".
But then a Theosophist girl sidetracked him into the antichrist Jewish mysticism of the woman Madam Blavatsky. He has verbally renounced Christ since then. It has been 10 years now. He hates having been a christian.
He chose to walk away from the salvation that was his. He has chosen to do so with eyes wide open in denouncing his prior convictions.
If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I'd probably argue against it being possible.
People can choose to turn away from salvation that was theirs. Left his "first love". Sad but true.
Sad Sad
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:42 pm

Son of Israel wrote:My son Jonathan has chosen to walk away from Jesus.
He is the only man I have personally known to ever do that.
He was baptized in 1993 and just like you and me, "saved".
But then a Theosophist girl sidetracked him into the antichrist Jewish mysticism of the woman Madam Blavatsky. He has verbally renounced Christ since then. It has been 10 years now. He hates having been a christian.
He chose to walk away from the salvation that was his. He has chosen to do so with eyes wide open in denouncing his prior convictions.
If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I'd probably argue against it being possible.
People can choose to turn away from salvation that was theirs. Left his "first love". Sad but true.
Sad Sad

Maybe he'll be back? Question

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Timotheos on Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:03 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:I just wanted to know, what your thoughts are on, and maybe we can do a bit of digging in the scriptures about, Salvation.

Do you Attain Salvation Automaticaly when you recieve the Holy Spirit? or is it an End result?

I think we attain salvation when Jesus returns and raises us up on the last day. Until then we have faith and trust that He will raise us up on the last day, if we put our faith in Him.
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:49 pm

Timotheos wrote:I think we attain salvation when Jesus returns and raises us up on the last day. Until then we have faith and trust that He will raise us up on the last day, if we put our faith in Him.

Ok well can I say we have the full assurance of salvation now?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Son of Israel on Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:17 pm

I've been saved by Jesus Smile
Period.

I will never tell others, "well, yeah, I might be saved someday..." LOL

I'd make a lousy evangelist doing that hehe.

But for fun, lets try it...

"Believe in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized and receive His Holy Spirit and "MAYBE SOMEDAY" you'll be saved! ...MAYBE!" Yes! For sure, Maybe!!

or

"The Word of God is able to make thee wise unto salvation, but you ain'g gettin it yet..."

or

"Come to me all ye heavy ladened, and I will give you rest... MAYBE. (this offer good only where similar scratch-its are sold...)"

or,

We've been purchased with a price! So get your lottery ticket to heaven here!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever belives upon Him, might someday, possibly, somehow, (Not now though) be saved!

(Tit 3:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(insert carnal fine print here...)

(2Ti 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(This offer not good where "futurists" abound)

C'mon everyone, lets make a new gospel of futurism! woo hoo! Let's make nothing applicable NOW! Let's remove this pesky verse too so we don't get confused...

(Rom 4:17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

oops, better get rid of this one too...

(Luk 10:20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

wearing my eraser down... but gotta get rid of all the verses that say salvation is "NOW"...

(2Co 6:2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

O let's just get rid of the Bible lol. Can't have anyone thinking they can have salvation NOW can we?!

What is up with this anyway? There is a bunch of gnat strainers on CF trying to say we aren't "born again" until a futuristic coming of the Lord some futuristic day, when He then "resurrects" us, as though it is a calendar event or something. Ah! I sooooo WAR against dispensationsalism and futurism! The threshing instrument of the devil for sure.

I need a biscuit now. Later taters Smile
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:46 am

Son of Israel wrote:I've been saved by Jesus Smile
Period.

I will never tell others, "well, yeah, I might be saved someday..." LOL

I'd make a lousy evangelist doing that hehe.

But for fun, lets try it...

"Believe in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized and receive His Holy Spirit and "MAYBE SOMEDAY" you'll be saved! ...MAYBE!" Yes! For sure, Maybe!!

or

"The Word of God is able to make thee wise unto salvation, but you ain'g gettin it yet..."

or

"Come to me all ye heavy ladened, and I will give you rest... MAYBE. (this offer good only where similar scratch-its are sold...)"

or,

We've been purchased with a price! So get your lottery ticket to heaven here!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever belives upon Him, might someday, possibly, somehow, (Not now though) be saved!

(Tit 3:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(insert carnal fine print here...)

(2Ti 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(This offer not good where "futurists" abound)

C'mon everyone, lets make a new gospel of futurism! woo hoo! Let's make nothing applicable NOW! Let's remove this pesky verse too so we don't get confused...

(Rom 4:17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

oops, better get rid of this one too...

(Luk 10:20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

wearing my eraser down... but gotta get rid of all the verses that say salvation is "NOW"...

(2Co 6:2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

O let's just get rid of the Bible lol. Can't have anyone thinking they can have salvation NOW can we?!

What is up with this anyway? There is a bunch of gnat strainers on CF trying to say we aren't "born again" until a futuristic coming of the Lord some futuristic day, when He then "resurrects" us, as though it is a calendar event or something. Ah! I sooooo WAR against dispensationsalism and futurism! The threshing instrument of the devil for sure.

I need a biscuit now. Later taters Smile
lol! Basketball Very Happy
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:12 am

As many verses that say YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED.

that say that salvation is at the end.


Which makes me beleive that its a process.

You ARE Born again when you receive the Holy spirit, but i beleive that there is a seperation between the two.

The Holy spirit Keeps you for salvation. But if you have the holy spirit, then you Die, to flesh.

Death and destruction is the flesh. Holy and eternal is the spirit.

Die to death. Live to life. in the death, of the life. (Hahah I LOVE THE SPIRIT!!...by human understadning its silly and condradictory!!...but we should not lean on human understanding)

Flesh is Death.
the spirit of Jesus is Life.

The Life Died. to give life to death.
We need to live in that death.
In order to live in the death, we need to die to our life.(hahha Oh wow God is amazing...)



We NEED to be IN the spirit. Can only do that by abiding in christ. Abiding in christ is differnet then beleiving on him...Pray with out ceasing.


I dont say this to hear myself speak. (or read myself type) God has put this on my heart, adn i have been putting it off for too long. Now i just tell everyone. You will need this message soon. You will remeebr it. I hope.

PRAY PRAY PRAY, and fast(though aparently thats an evil word to people...aye!)


Or dont.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Son of Israel on Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:53 am

I always fast Smile
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:09 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:As many verses that say YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED.

that say that salvation is at the end.


Which makes me beleive that its a process.

You ARE Born again when you receive the Holy spirit, but i beleive that there is a seperation between the two.

The Holy spirit Keeps you for salvation. But if you have the holy spirit, then you Die, to flesh.

Death and destruction is the flesh. Holy and eternal is the spirit.

Die to death. Live to life. in the death, of the life. (Hahah I LOVE THE SPIRIT!!...by human understadning its silly and condradictory!!...but we should not lean on human understanding)

Flesh is Death.
the spirit of Jesus is Life.

The Life Died. to give life to death.
We need to live in that death.
In order to live in the death, we need to die to our life.(hahha Oh wow God is amazing...)



We NEED to be IN the spirit. Can only do that by abiding in christ. Abiding in christ is differnet then beleiving on him...Pray with out ceasing.


I dont say this to hear myself speak. (or read myself type) God has put this on my heart, adn i have been putting it off for too long. Now i just tell everyone. You will need this message soon. You will remeebr it. I hope.

PRAY PRAY PRAY, and fast(though aparently thats an evil word to people...aye!)


Or dont.

Rob
the old man is who we have to keep shovelling dirt over.
WE ARE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST!
that's what these guys are saying.

we need to love each other in newness of LIFE!
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:32 am

Yes, But HOW do you continue to keep the old man Dead?

How? If its not what I beleive God to be telling me, and I have been saying, then how do you do it?

You not New creatures in christ, if your allowing the flesh to rise.

This is HARD for people to swallow i understand that. but what i said needed to be said.

Jesus loves us!! all of us here. I wasnt condemening anyone or even trying to come down on anyone...but aparently this needed to be said. and now it has. God bless all of you guys, and thank you Doc for this forum.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:25 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Yes, But HOW do you continue to keep the old man Dead?

YOU dont. God does.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:37 am

YES!!! EXACTLY!



But do you see how this will turn into a big circle if i continue any further?

There is only one way for God to be able to work in you, and Keep the old man dead. and that is for you to Deny Self. Completely surrender to him daily...and pray ALLOT! like ALLOT ALLOT.


But im done. God bless Doctor.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:53 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:YES!!! EXACTLY!

But do you see how this will turn into a big circle if i continue any further?
If you keep trying to work things back to stuff YOU DO to EARN Salvation then it will go round in circles yes. You should break that cycle and trust in God to keep you and do His work in you.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
There is only one way for God to be able to work in you, and Keep the old man dead. and that is for you to Deny Self. Completely surrender to him daily...and pray ALLOT! like ALLOT ALLOT.

But im done. God bless Doctor.
I pray on average twice a day for about 3 minutes with all my heart and might. Thats enough for me. The rest of the day I'm meditating on God's Word and assembling with brethren.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:53 am

If you keep trying to work things back to stuff YOU DO to EARN Salvation

Whne have i ever said you do anything to earn Salvation?

Becasue you dont. You cant. Its impossibe.


What I said was you need to pray and seek the face of the almighty to stay in the spirit.

do you guys pray when you assemble? what do you think the ekklisia did? eat and talk about football? Or talk about current events?

Im sorry if im comming of a bit snappy, but Doc, Brother, you have never been to a church yet the attitude you have IS of the apostate church. You can throw me out for this, but brother, I wouldnt love you if i didnt say something. Praying 3 minutes a day is not going to cut it, really its not, when the feces hits the fan, your going to be grasping for spiritual strength, My children suffer becasue of lack of knowledge DOES NOT mean biblical fact. it means Knowledge OF who God is. Jesus is the Word of God, and if you arent eating, and meditating and consuming the spirit of your master, then you ARE NOT in the spirit, you are still in the flesh.

Its really important that we pray, seriously, if you cant, physicaly you feel like something is holding you back, Yell out to GOD ask him to help. If you just DOnt want to, then well thats exactly my point in other posts. Thats pride. if 3 min a day is enough for you then you need to check certain aspects of your belief brother, becasue 3 min 2wice a day is NOT enough prayer for anyone...Seriously its GRAVE that the children of God are filled with is power for the comming times, and if you are not seeking it, then you will not find.

Muy importante Hermano Medico.

seriously though, I have to litteraly peal myself off the chair sometimes, even when i KNOW God is calling me to prayer, have you ever felt God call you to prayer with him? Im sure you have. Dont ignore it. Fight the devil HE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO PRAY. Jesus WANTS to sepnd time with you, truly close quality time. Reading the scriptures is GREAT, but if you arent spending alone quiet time with God EVERYDAY and hearing from HIM, then, Ask him why you arent. Or even group prayer, get the guys to pray, adn go before the Lord almighty, I wish i had people to fellowship with, I dont, I wish i had People to PRay with, to spend hours before the lord almighty and wait for him to move, and then go out and preach in the spirit, that would be great, in time i beleive GOd will send people to me, or me to them. But really Doc, its mighty crucial that we seek the Lord constantly.

Its really important Doc, really Crying or Very sad

And not just Doc, anybody everybody. We dont see the spirit working becasue hardly anyone is filled with the spirit, they are filled with Memorized bible verses, and cake.(Cake?...)

AND I love Cake! But i would sooner never have Cake again than never feel the spirit of my master, which is an amazing fealing, to feel the presence of God, and know that HE WANTED that. Like he comes down and gives you a kiss on the top of your head, its a GREAT fealing Doc. Spend time with the master, everyone really. He should be the lover of your soul.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:23 am

Praying 3 minutes a day is not going to cut it, really its not

Wow, I didnt know there was a minimum amount of praying every Christian had to do every day.

What will cut it? If I said 30 minutes...would you be chastising me? How about 3 hours? Whats the LEGAL requirement?

Tell us Rob, how much do you pray per day? Tell us so we can all marvel at how religious you are.

do you guys pray when you assemble? what do you think the ekklisia did? eat and talk about football? Or talk about current events?

I pray in private just like Jesus teaches.

if 3 min a day is enough for you then you need to check certain aspects of your belief brother, becasue 3 min 2wice a day is NOT enough prayer for anyone
How much is enough?

Please provide scripture not just your opinion.

but if you arent spending alone quiet time with God EVERYDAY and hearing from HIM, then, Ask him why you arent.
Rob, can I ask you a question...do you audibly hear God's voice talking to you?

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:24 pm

KingdomSeeker wrote:Yes, But HOW do you continue to keep the old man Dead?

How? If its not what I beleive God to be telling me, and I have been saying, then how do you do it?

You not New creatures in christ, if your allowing the flesh to rise.

This is HARD for people to swallow i understand that. but what i said needed to be said.

Jesus loves us!! all of us here. I wasnt condemening anyone or even trying to come down on anyone...but aparently this needed to be said. and now it has. God bless all of you guys, and thank you Doc for this forum.
Rob are you leaving us?
i keep the old man in the grave by daily attention and care for the new man.
what is allowing the flesh to rise?
the ascetics separated themselves from the world and used all manner of ways to mortify the flesh - this DOESN'T WORK. it makes people crazy, distorts the Love of God, and in fact makes worse sinners (who are then hypocrites, pretending to be sanctified but filled with carnal emotions and confusion).

where is the joy in salvation?

the very best way to live in liberty and peace is to do what we were meant to do in this world: preach the Gospel and care for others. we love God! He created good works for us to walk in - loving people and defending the faith.
anyways...i hope you are okay, i appreciate and aknowledge your devotion.
zone
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:30 pm

KingdomSeeker wrote:

Whne have i ever said you do anything to earn Salvation?

Becasue you dont. You cant. Its impossibe.


What I said was you need to pray and seek the face of the almighty to stay in the spirit.

do you guys pray when you assemble? what do you think the ekklisia did? eat and talk about football? Or talk about current events?

Im sorry if im comming of a bit snappy, but Doc, Brother, you have never been to a church yet the attitude you have IS of the apostate church. You can throw me out for this, but brother, I wouldnt love you if i didnt say something. Praying 3 minutes a day is not going to cut it, really its not, when the feces hits the fan, your going to be grasping for spiritual strength, My children suffer becasue of lack of knowledge DOES NOT mean biblical fact. it means Knowledge OF who God is. Jesus is the Word of God, and if you arent eating, and meditating and consuming the spirit of your master, then you ARE NOT in the spirit, you are still in the flesh.

Its really important that we pray, seriously, if you cant, physicaly you feel like something is holding you back, Yell out to GOD ask him to help. If you just DOnt want to, then well thats exactly my point in other posts. Thats pride. if 3 min a day is enough for you then you need to check certain aspects of your belief brother, becasue 3 min 2wice a day is NOT enough prayer for anyone...Seriously its GRAVE that the children of God are filled with is power for the comming times, and if you are not seeking it, then you will not find.

Muy importante Hermano Medico.

seriously though, I have to litteraly peal myself off the chair sometimes, even when i KNOW God is calling me to prayer, have you ever felt God call you to prayer with him? Im sure you have. Dont ignore it. Fight the devil HE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO PRAY. Jesus WANTS to sepnd time with you, truly close quality time. Reading the scriptures is GREAT, but if you arent spending alone quiet time with God EVERYDAY and hearing from HIM, then, Ask him why you arent. Or even group prayer, get the guys to pray, adn go before the Lord almighty, I wish i had people to fellowship with, I dont, I wish i had People to PRay with, to spend hours before the lord almighty and wait for him to move, and then go out and preach in the spirit, that would be great, in time i beleive GOd will send people to me, or me to them. But really Doc, its mighty crucial that we seek the Lord constantly.

Its really important Doc, really Crying or Very sad

And not just Doc, anybody everybody. We dont see the spirit working becasue hardly anyone is filled with the spirit, they are filled with Memorized bible verses, and cake.(Cake?...)

AND I love Cake! But i would sooner never have Cake again than never feel the spirit of my master, which is an amazing fealing, to feel the presence of God, and know that HE WANTED that. Like he comes down and gives you a kiss on the top of your head, its a GREAT fealing Doc. Spend time with the master, everyone really. He should be the lover of your soul.
Rob, do you know God knows my heart, the thoughts i have BEFORE I HAVE THEM?
He knows that i talk to Him all day long, and that He is foremost in my ways all day - BUT I FALL SHORT.
dear one, JESUS is the center of my life, and i know He is in Doc's life too. sometimes Doc doesn't even go to bed! we're all in Christ, Rob. the difference is, i think, i TRUST Him to hold fast to me.
peace, brother, PEACE.
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Son of Israel on Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:56 pm

(1Ti 5:17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

(Heb 6:10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

(Rev 2:2) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Keep up the good labour, ye who labor in love and patience in word and doctrine, in ministering to the saints.

Double honour to you! Smile
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:29 pm

Son of Israel wrote:(1Ti 5:17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

(Heb 6:10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

(Rev 2:2) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Keep up the good labour, ye who labor in love and patience in word and doctrine, in ministering to the saints.

Double honour to you! Smile



The Lord Is My Shepherd
A Psalm of David.

1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters.a
3 He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousnessb
for his name’s sake.

4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,c
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surelyd goodness and mercye shall follow me
all the days of my life,
and I shall dwellf in the house of the Lord
forever.g
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:22 am

zone wrote:
the ascetics separated themselves from the world and used all manner of ways to mortify the flesh - this DOESN'T WORK. it makes people crazy, distorts the Love of God, and in fact makes worse sinners (who are then hypocrites, pretending to be sanctified but filled with carnal emotions and confusion).

Zone, there is NO way to both be of the spirit, AND the flesh.We as children of God, Sons of God, are led by the spirit. Not ourselves, and what we "Think" the spirit might be doing.

The reason it did not work for the ones you mentioned was because they were not in the spirit of God, they were in some sort of other ...spirit.

To abstain from the world, adn FORCE yourself to be seperated from the flesh, is impossible.

YET, we are CALLED to seperate from the flesh, from the World. HOW? The SPirit of God, and you CAN ONLY be IN the spirit if you are in CONSTANT prayer, and being IN the presence of God, gettign on our knees and spending time before God, and telling him that you just want to be WITH him. He WILL then fill you with his spirit, adn you will know, becasue it will be able to tell the difference.



where is the joy in salvation?


What Joy is in the flesh?

the very best way to live in liberty and peace is to do what we were meant to do in this world: preach the Gospel and care for others. we love God! He created good works for us to walk in - loving people and defending the faith.
anyways...i hope you are okay, i appreciate and aknowledge your devotion.
zone


Im fine, like i said previously. I was told to do something, and i refrained from doing so...On CC, i refrained after a while, and on CF i toatly didnt do it. Here, amongst likeminded peopl i thought maybe it would be more egerly accepted. What i say IS the only way to be in the spirit, and i REALLY wish someone would have told ME this years agao...but God told me, so I guess i really cant complain.


PRAYER, is not just MY "Thing" or my devotion. it is NECESSARY in order to please God. we NEED to be before him as much as possible, I dont do it nearly as much as i know he wants me to. But thats the thing, Once you start to do it, THEN he calls you to come back...well actually I bleive he is always calling, its just once you Seek him of your own fruition, THEN you can more properly hear his bekon.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:32 am

Strangelove wrote:

Wow, I didnt know there was a minimum amount of praying every Christian had to do every day. Why do we pray Doc?

What will cut it? If I said 30 minutes...would you be chastising me? How about 3 hours? Whats the LEGAL requirement? Why do we Pray Doc?

Tell us Rob, how much do you pray per day? Tell us so we can all marvel at how religious you are. Not as much as need to.



I pray in private just like Jesus teaches. You would never pray with a gathering of people? YOu would never pray with a friend? OR your wife? Over a sick person? What were the apostles as well as mary and Jesus brothers doing in the upper room? Eating cake?(...i know cake obsession...maybe i want cake)


How much is enough?

Please provide scripture not just your opinion.
Would experience be, good too?

Rob, can I ask you a question...do you audibly hear God's voice talking to you?

Audibly? no. In my spirit. he has told me to read a portion of scripture. He has told me to turn around, from my walk once, he has gives me direction. its speaking in the spirit, not somethign you can really describe...sorry, wish i could better...

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Strangelove on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:43 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Why do we Pray Doc?

The contents of the Lords Prayer covers it nicely

KingdomSeeker wrote:
YOu would never pray with a friend? OR your wife? Over a sick person?

Nope, never have or would pray with others. Praying over a sick person is praying FOR them not with them.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
What were the apostles as well as mary and Jesus brothers doing in the upper room? Eating cake?

They were praying in private under the same roof as far as I can tell.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Would experience be, good too?

No, I'd prefer scripture.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Audibly? no. In my spirit. he has told me to read a portion of scripture. He has told me to turn around, from my walk once, he has gives me direction. its speaking in the spirit, not somethign you can really describe...sorry, wish i could better...
Ok, good to know your not hearing voices at least. God talks to us through his Word my friend.

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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by Son of Israel on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:38 pm

Thank you for posting David's Psalm Zone. That one always sends me Smile Or calls me, not sure which. How many times did Jesus rehearse that one on the way to the cross...
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Re: Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

Post by zone on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:49 pm

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Im fine, like i said previously. I was told to do something, and i refrained from doing so...On CC, i refrained after a while, and on CF i toatly didnt do it. Here, amongst likeminded peopl i thought maybe it would be more egerly accepted. What i say IS the only way to be in the spirit, and i REALLY wish someone would have told ME this years agao...but God told me, so I guess i really cant complain.


PRAYER, is not just MY "Thing" or my devotion. it is NECESSARY in order to please God. we NEED to be before him as much as possible, I dont do it nearly as much as i know he wants me to. But thats the thing, Once you start to do it, THEN he calls you to come back...well actually I bleive he is always calling, its just once you Seek him of your own fruition, THEN you can more properly hear his bekon.
Rob.
our "flesh" is not what's evil.
it's our HEARTS (minds) that are/were corrupt. but we are made new in Jesus.

i understand fasting, i have done it once when i was called to by The Lord...it was for a very specific purpose. i haven't been called again since.
(i could stand to lose a few pounds i guess Embarassed )
i love The Lord, Rob. and i know He loves me.
i love you too, and i appreciate your devotion.
zoney.

i just will leave off with Pauls' words. they may not be specific to this thread, but i take comfort in them sometimes if i feel less than:

Colossians 2
Let No One Disqualify You

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,d puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

oops....i thought this was the fasting thread!
sorry.
but i'll leave it here cuz i like Colossians Surprised
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