Calvinism

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Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:08 am

Well i will post for you the 5 pillars of calvinist teaching. Then you will know what calvinisim is.

calvisim is based on 5 teachings that are called tulip teachings.




TULIP





"T" in "TULIP" stands
for "Total Hereditary Depravity."





"Because of the fall, man is unable of
himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to
the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is
not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed
he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it
takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it
takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a
new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a
part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the
sinner's gift to God."








"U" in "TULIP" stands
for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).





"God's choice of certain individuals
unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own
sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen
response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the
contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects.
These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore
was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen
in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the
Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not
the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."








"L" in "TULIP" stands
for "Limited Atonement."





"Christ's redeeming work was intended
to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was
substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain
specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's
redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith
which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit
to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."








"I" in "TULIP" stands
for "Irresistible Grace."





"In addition to the outward general
call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy
Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them
to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be
rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the
Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of
applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation
for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to
believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace,
therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to
whom it is extended."








"P" in "TULIP" stands
for "Perseverance of the Saints."





All who are chosen by God, redeemed by
Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in
faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."









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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:44 am

Adstar wrote:The T in "TULIP" stands
for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of
himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to
the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is
not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed
he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it
takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it
takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a
new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a
part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the
sinner's gift to God."

Ok...I agree with all of this but the free will part needs to be clarified I think.

We have free will. We are not robots. God is not constantly in control of all our actions. If I decide to fart on my sons face or pick my nose and roll the bogey up into a ball and flick it across the room....I'm sure God had nothing much to do with it.

I think the point is, God calls His sheep, He gives us the ability to understand the Gospel message. And by this He allows us to make the right decision to believe what is written with clear understanding. Thus, overall faith is a gift of God.

So I'm not sure if that means I agree or disagree with that first point of Calvinism?

Anyone else?

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:48 am

Calvinism states that no one makes a free willed
decision to accept God. God forces those who accept Him to accept Him. They
where saved from the moment they where created. They have no say in the issue.
Like wise those who where created for the lake of fire have not free will
ability to accept God. They where doomed from the moment of their creation.

This doctrine all comes about because calvinists do not understand the
importance of the word foreknew.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God’s foreknowledge comes before He predestines. God predestines from the
knowledge He has from His foreknowledge. God saw all the future at the
creation. or even before it. He knows the beginning and the end. He knows
everything.



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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:20 am

Adstar wrote:Calvinism states that no one makes a free willed
decision to accept God. God forces those who accept Him to accept Him. They
where saved from the moment they where created. They have no say in the issue.
Like wise those who where created for the lake of fire have not free will
ability to accept God. They where doomed from the moment of their creation.

This doctrine all comes about because calvinists do not understand the
importance of the word foreknew.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God’s foreknowledge comes before He predestines. God predestines from the
knowledge He has from His foreknowledge. God saw all the future at the
creation. or even before it. He knows the beginning and the end. He knows
everything.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well, I dont know about the word 'forced'. I mean...are you forced to love someone? Or are they so irresistable that you just cant help yourself. If you can find some calvinist literature that says believers are forced into their belief I'd be interested.

God simply made them the way they are so that they would have the ability and understanding to make the right decisions. He equipped us for faith. And thats exactly what scripture teaches.

The point is, God gave us every good thing that we have. There is nothing good in our life that God is not responsible for. Any good decision we make is because He gave us the knowledge, understanding, motivation etc to do so. Would you not agree? So in that sense, He effects our 'free will' decisions.

Regarding 'foreknew'.......I dont see this as God looking down the corridors of time and seeing who would choose Him and who wouldnt...and adjusting His plan to fit that. To foreknow something simply means to know it before it happens. God knows everything from the beginning to the end, for sure...but not becasue He needs to look into a crystal ball and look at what humans are doing 6000 years into the future. Why would He need to do that? He's God!

Interesting one.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:57 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Well, I dont know about the word 'forced'. I mean...are you forced to love
someone? Or are they so irresistable that you just cant help yourself. If you
can find some calvinist literature that says believers are forced into their
belief I'd be interested.

Did you read the definitions? I posted the Definitions of calvanisim for you in
the hope that you would read them.

Did you miss out on reading the definition of

"Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general
call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy
Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them
to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be
rejected
; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call
the
Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His
work of
applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation
for success.
"

I used the word forced for good resion. That is what calvinism teaches and it
is central to calvinist teaching.

God simply made them the way they are so that they would have the ability
and understanding to make the right decisions. He equipped us for faith. And
thats exactly what scripture teaches.

So you do believe God made one person to burn and another to have salvation,
That he made two different types of human beings. Better strike a line through
this verse then

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.


Nope, sorry Peter, stop telling lies. God made some people to be saved and He
made others to burn. He is not only willing for them to burn but created them
for that very purpose.

The point is, God gave us every good thing that we have. There is
nothing good in our life that God is not responsible for. Any good decision we
make is because He gave us the knowledge, understanding, motivation etc to do
so. Would you not agree? So in that sense, He effects our 'free will'
decisions.

So you believe The Holy Spirit only calls upon those who have been created for
eternity with God?



Regarding 'foreknew'.......I dont see this as God looking down the
corridors of time and seeing who would choose Him and who wouldnt...and
adjusting His plan to fit that. To foreknow something simply means to know it
before it happens. God knows everything from the beginning to the end, for
sure...but not becasue He needs to look into a crystal ball and look at what
humans are doing 6000 years into the future. Why would He need to do that? He's
God!

Interesting one.

I cannot even comment on this paragraph. It seems very confused. I never said
God has a crystal ball..... I simply cannot understand the point your making
here.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by zone on Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:47 pm

Adstar wrote:
2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.


Nope, sorry Peter, stop telling lies. God made some people to be saved and He
made others to burn. He is not only willing for them to burn but created them
for that very purpose.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
hi adstar.
i'm so glad you're here.
i'm avoiding the calvinism thingee cuz there are some parts of classic or most certainly hyper-cal i can't go along with.

however...do you have at least one other witness in the New Testament which would have God "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."?

because, if we look again at this passage, it may take on a new angle if we see who Peter is speaking to:

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.


intro to 2nd letter:
2 Peter
1This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles

this second letter is addressed to the professing church. (the called out).

for more confirmation, here's the intro to the 1st letter:
1 Peter
Greeting
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

~ now, we have a different problem....that letter specifies if anything an even tighter group of the elect (are we among THEM? LIKE them?):

exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia

the point i was trying to make was that the specific passage in 2 Peter used to say God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" does not remotely touch upon a universal call, in fact says to the elect, by the foreknowledge of God the Father, that God is patient towards THEM (elect), not willing that any of THEM(elect) should perish, but that ALL of THEM(elect) should (or will) come to repentence - and so, if anything, that passage buttresses calvinism per say.......oops! Question Suspect

dunno....jus' sayin' Very Happy
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:23 pm

Adstar wrote:Did you read the definitions? I posted the Definitions of calvanisim for you in
the hope that you would read them.

Erm...actually no I didnt read them. Very Happy I was just taking them one by one. Sorry mate. I was just addressing the first one.

Adstar wrote:Did you miss out on reading the definition of

"Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general
call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel,
the Holy
Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them
to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect)
cannot be
rejected
; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call
the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His
work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation
for success.
"

I used the word forced for good resion. That is what calvinism teaches and it
is central to calvinist teaching.


Ok lets have a looksee. Well, it doesnt say forced. It says irresistable Grace that cannot be rejected. Sooooo....whats the difference between that and force? I would say that the difference is that you WILL WANT TO DO IT. Forced implies doing something you dont wanna do. It cannot be rejected because no one would ever want to reject God's irresistable love. Makes sense to me.

The bit where it says dependant upon man's cooperation. Hmmm...tricky, its not DEPENDANT as such...I mean a sheep WILL co-operate so in that way its not really relavant I guess?

Adstar wrote:So you do believe God made one person to burn and another to have salvation,
That he made two different types of human beings.

Well, He kinda says it in His Word mate:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Adstar wrote:Better strike a line through
this verse then

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.


Nope, sorry Peter, stop telling lies. God made some people to be saved and He
made others to burn. He is not only willing for them to burn but created them
for that very purpose.


I dont understand, are you prescribng some form of universalism here?

He's obviously saying that all those CALLED should come to repentance. The elect. We need some to burn in the lake of fire!



Adstar wrote:So you believe The Holy Spirit only calls upon those who have been created for
eternity with God?

Thats what scripture says. I never said it wasn't a (mindbender) but its there in black and white. (or blue and red Very Happy )

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Adstar wrote:I cannot even comment on this paragraph. It seems very confused. I never said
God has a crystal ball..... I simply cannot understand the point your making
here.

Sorry I cant find where you were talking about the calvinist misinterpretation of the word 'foreknew'. I remember you saying something about how God could know who was being saved because He can see into the future or something. My apologies if thats not what you said.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:30 pm

zone wrote:
hi adstar.
i'm so glad you're here.
i'm avoiding the calvinism thingee cuz there are some parts of classic or most
certainly hyper-cal i can't go along with.

however...do you have at least one other witness in the New Testament which
would have God "not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance."?


because, if we look again at this passage, it may take on a new angle if we see
who Peter is speaking to:

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is

longsuffering toward us, not
willing that any should perish but that all

should come to repentance.


intro to 2nd letter:
2 Peter1This
is now the second letter that I am
writing to you, beloved
. In both of them I am stirring up
your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2that you should remember the
predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior
through your apostles

this second letter is addressed to the
professing church
. (the called out).

for more confirmation, here's the intro to the 1st letter:
1 Peter
Greeting
1Peter,
an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect
exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for
sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

~ now, we have a different problem....that letter specifies if anything an even
tighter group of the elect
(are we among THEM? LIKE them?):

exiles of the dispersion in Pontus,
Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
the point i was trying to make was that the specific passage in 2 Peter
used to say God is "not willing that any should perish but that
all should come to repentance"
does not remotely touch upon a
universal call, in fact says to the elect,
by the foreknowledge of God the Father
, that God is patient
towards THEM (elect), not willing that any of THEM(elect) should perish, but
that ALL of THEM(elect) should (or will) come to repentence - and so, if
anything, that passage buttresses calvinism per say.......oops!

dunno....jus' sayin'

Well lets look at the verse from your angle and think it through.

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is

longsuffering toward us, not
willing that any should perish but that all

should come to repentance.

Ok lets say He is talking to the elect, to saved Christians, saints.
Ones that according to calvanisim are saved by His irresistible grace, they got
no say in it. They’re saved, done deal.


Now what is Peter doing saying to such a group. That God is not willing
that any should perish. Would He instead be saying That God's will is that none
of then will perish? Why put the "should" in there if it's a done
deal?


The latter part of the verse is even more problematical to calvanisim.
Peters says that they all should "come to repentance". If He is only
talking to calvinist saved Christians, to the Elect, then they must all have already
"come to repentance". Show me a saved Saint a member of the Elect
that has Not come to repentance? Can there be any saints that have Not come to
repentance. Noooo wayyyy



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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:40 pm

Hers a couple of really good sermons on calvinism:

Pastor Phil Johnson.

The Story of Calvinism

Closet Calvinists

Right click --> 'Save as' to download.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:41 pm

<blockquote>
Adstar wrote:So you believe The Holy Spirit only calls upon those who have been created for
eternity with God?
</blockquote>

Thats what scripture says. I never said it wasn't a (mindbender) but its there in black and white. (or blue and red Very Happy )

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Looks like the next verse of scripture needs to be removed from the bible then if all who are called are chosen.

Matthew 22
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Whats that Jesus.. Looks like we will have to correct your misguided egesis Jesus. No Jesus. All that are called are chosen Jesus and don't you forget it. Smile


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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:47 pm

Adstar wrote:Better strike a line through
this verse then

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.


Nope, sorry Peter, stop telling lies. God made some people to be saved and He
made others to burn. He is not only willing for them to burn but created them
for that very purpose.



I dont understand, are you prescribng some form of universalism here?

No.

He's obviously saying that all those CALLED should come to repentance. The elect. We need some to burn in the lake of fire!

As i said in my former post. If the elect are the elect in calvinist terms then he would not have said "should" If calvinisim is true, all those will come to repentance. Or if he was only talking to those elect the letter was posted too it would have been, all those have come to repentance.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:54 pm

Sorry I cant find
where you were talking about the calvinist misinterpretation of the word
'foreknew'. I remember you saying something about how God could know who was
being saved because He can see into the future or something. My apologies if
thats not what you said.

I don't know where this part of our discussion went of the rails but it seems
to have done so.

Of course God can see all the universes future. How do you think the prophets
can tell the future thousands of years before the event? He does not need to
look through a crystal ball however. I believe He knew the entire history of
the world the moment He thought of it. From the foundations of the World, the
moment of creation he knew all of history and each persons life and death all
their thoughts all their deeds. He knows the start and the end. Nothing can
take Him by surprise. We have an awesome God.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:55 pm

Adstar wrote:
Looks like the next verse of scripture needs to be removed from the bible then if all who are called are chosen.

Matthew 22
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Whats that Jesus.. Looks like we will have to correct your misguided egesis Jesus. No Jesus. All that are called are chosen Jesus and don't you forget it. Smile

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I think it would be sensible to deduce that there is a true call from God, a supernatural one...... and a superficial call to say...the nation of Isreal to come to repentance. Many have evangelized the Gospel (this could be the kind of 'call' that this verse refers to).....many rejected that call, the entire nation almost. The few that heard the Gospel and had the understanding of it were truly called by God.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:57 pm

Adstar wrote:As i said in my former post. If the elect are the elect in calvinist terms then he would not have said "should" If calvinisim is true, all those will come to repentance. Or if he was only talking to those elect the letter was posted too it would have been, all those have come to repentance.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

He didnt say 'should'. Check the Greek.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:02 pm

Adstar wrote:
Sorry I cant find
where you were talking about the calvinist misinterpretation of the word
'foreknew'. I remember you saying something about how God could know who was
being saved because He can see into the future or something. My apologies if
thats not what you said.

I don't know where this part of our discussion went of the rails but it seems
to have done so.

Of course God can see all the universes future. How do you think the prophets
can tell the future thousands of years before the event? He does not need to
look through a crystal ball however. I believe He knew the entire history of
the world the moment He thought of it. From the foundations of the World, the
moment of creation he knew all of history and each persons life and death all
their thoughts all their deeds. He knows the start and the end. Nothing can
take Him by surprise. We have an awesome God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

He can give whatever prophecies He wants and then fulfill them in the future. Why would He need to see into the future to check what happens? He MAKES the future happen!

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Re: Calvinism

Post by zone on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:27 pm

Adstar wrote:
Well lets look at the verse from your angle and think it through.

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance.

Ok lets say He is talking to the elect, to saved Christians, saints.
Ones that according to calvanisim are saved by His irresistible grace, they got
no say in it. They’re saved, done deal.


Now what is Peter doing saying to such a group. That God is not willing
that any should perish. Would He instead be saying That God's will is that none
of then will perish? Why put the "should" in there if it's a done
deal?


The latter part of the verse is even more problematical to calvanisim.
Peters says that they all should "come to repentance". If He is only
talking to calvinist saved Christians, to the Elect, then they must all have already
"come to repentance". Show me a saved Saint a member of the Elect
that has Not come to repentance? Can there be any saints that have Not come to
repentance. Noooo wayyyy



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[/font]


hi adstar.
i'll say again i'm not 100% for calvinism.
(another time i'll be specific about why - suffice to say i DO believe THE OFFER of Grace can be rejected...but these people rejected Grace, so were never saved. i keep it simple Embarassed ). it DOES appear that some are CHOSEN (the Twelve we know for certain were...why not others??) Question

*see below
:you, not wishingβουλόμενοςboulomenos1014to willa prim. verb
the subject in the pertinent verses in 2 Peter is The Promise (redemption - The Second Coming). the context is Peter speaking to and comforting the elect, as he calls them. whatever hyper-cals do with that to the extreme, i avoid.

Peter is saying that they (the elect, as he called them) need to understand that God isn't slacking off, He isn't alseep at the wheel....it seems like the Redemption is a long time coming, but its because He WILL have His people SAVED....His Plan WILL unfold in His time.

they must all reach Calvary, come to repentence and be saved before the end comes.

the kjv says: toward us

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

the word is HEMAS....

ημας personal pronoun - first person accusative plural
hemas hay-mas': us -- our, us, we.

here's NASB:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Young's Literal:
the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation
,
2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

to will

Original Word: βούλομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: boulomai
Phonetic Spelling: (boo'-lom-ahee)
Short Definition: I will, intend, desire
Definition: I will, intend, desire, wish.

Cognate: 1014 boúlomaito plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving).

In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

and lastly, "should" isn't really in the text.

2 Peter 3
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is
longsuffering toward us, not willing that any [should] perish but that all should come to repentance.

again adstar my brother, i'm not pushing calvin on anybody. just looking at what these passages say.
love zone.
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Monergism

Post by zone on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:56 pm

this is pertinent to this thread...discussion?:

What Is Monergism?

Monergism: In regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh -- giving rise to a delight in His Word -- all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ. The Prophet Ezekiel inspired by the Holy Spirit asserted "I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God." (Eze 11:19, also 36:26) The Apostle Paul said, "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1, 4, 5). I.e. In regeneration the word does not work alone but must be accompanied by the "germination" of the Holy Spirit. And again "...you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Pet 1:23)

The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:
"In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration."

It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to us through regeneration -- and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignores the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, "...Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved." and "...he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5) And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

It is in contrast to synergism which the Century Dictionary defines as
"...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives."

http://www.monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php
For more in-depth treatment of this topic click here....
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:43 am

Well what can i say. I said it before, The only
ex calvinists i have ever seen are atheist. So i did not expect that either of
you would be moved. It's a great sadness in my heart that the calvinists got to
you so soon after you accepted the Messiah Jesus strangelove.

Such is life.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:50 am

Adstar wrote:Well what can i say. I said it before, The only
ex calvinists i have ever seen are atheist. So i did not expect that either of
you would be moved. It's a great sadness in my heart that the calvinists got to
you so soon after you accepted the Messiah Jesus strangelove.

Such is life.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

confused I dont see the disadvantage? Why be sad?

Why would you feel negatively about me having a feeling of great assurance that I am Christs forever?

I don't know of any calvinists that 'got to me'. I'm not of calvin myself, never read a word written by the man. I'm not defending these tulip thingees....I just thought we could go through them together to see if they make sense.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:06 am

"U" in "TULIP" stands
for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals
unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own
sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen
response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the
contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects.
These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore
was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen
in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the
Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not
the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."

================================================================

Well, this one is pretty easy. Faith is a gift from God. He gives every man his measure of faith.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And faith in the truth is what keeps us, His chosen, for Salvation

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)

God chooses us.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4)

Jesus definately chose His twelve. Dont see why it should be any diffeent for all His disciples.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16)

Salvation is not becasue of something that we do. It's not our work that counts but the Grace of God through faith (which He gives us).

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


So, you may ask...WHATS THE POINT IN IT ALL! Why go through the whole rigmaroll if God has already chosen who is saved and who isn't already!?

And my answer is...

Z

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Re: Calvinism

Post by zone on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:27 pm

Adstar wrote:Well what can i say. I said it before, The only
ex calvinists i have ever seen are atheist. So i did not expect that either of
you would be moved. It's a great sadness in my heart that the calvinists got to
you so soon after you accepted the Messiah Jesus strangelove.
Such is life.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
hi adstar.
brother, i love to read.
i wonder if you could offer a link or two to respected outlines of your beliefs concering how we are saved, including how salvation is maintained if it is (and any other areas you think i am may be off-base) > minor request Rolling Eyes
thank you
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:08 pm

Been reading up on something called 'Hyper Calvinism'.

Maybe isolating the ways that Calvinism has gone off the rails might help us to clear up any differences we might have on clear bible doctrine.

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

  1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
  2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
  3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
  4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
  5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

My personal views on these points are:

"Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear"

I think everyone in the world needs to hear the Gospel. We dont know who God's chosen are so this 'general call' as we discussed earlier may be rejected by most but those who are given the understanding by God will hear the message and come to the fold.

"Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner"

I guess this is saying that Hyper-Cals feel that its not the concern of all men to at least try to accept faith and live in it before they see some kind of proof that they are infact one of the elect beforehand?? Dunno how they would see this...maybe by examining themselves and their sinful nature, but then...it's true faith that starts the regeneration process so....lol....dunno....I think faith is the duty of every sinner. Try living in faith in Christ. If it is true faith it will stick by you. If it's not, then....you'll find out soon enough.

"Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal)"

This is just pure elitism. Remember Savedbygrace on that other forum Adstar? I think he gets way too wrapped up in this stuff.

The offer is there for everyone. Some will understand and come to God. Some will reject the Gospel but it may effect them in other positive ways.

"Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace,"

I think God gives Grace and divine Mercy to whomever He wishes. Saved or unsaved. This is elitism again.

"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works" (Ps. 145:9)

Even if He makes some Vessels of Destruction it doesnt mean that He cant afford SOME Grace to them also.

"Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect"

Nothing in scripture to suppose this is true. I mean we, the elect, are told to love our enemies...so theres some good luvvin right there! I love you

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:18 pm

"Denies that the gospel makes any
"offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies
that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal)"


This is just pure elitism. Remember Savedbygrace on that other forum Adstar? I
think he gets way too wrapped up in this stuff.

The offer is there for everyone. Some will understand and come to God. Some
will reject the Gospel but it may effect them in other positive ways.

You believe and have stated that God created some people to burn. How then can
any offer of salvation be genuinely offered to them? What is the worth of an
offer that cannot be accepted? It is not an offer at all if the ones who it is
offered to are at the same time blocked from accepting it. The conclusion of
the calvinists above is legitimate if calvinism is true. And God does create
some to burn and others for salvation.







"Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace,"

I think God gives Grace and divine Mercy to whomever He wishes. Saved or
unsaved. This is elitism again.

"The Lord is good to all: and his
tender mercies are over all his works" (Ps. 145:9)


Even if He makes some Vessels of Destruction it doesnt mean that He cant afford
SOME Grace to them also.

What grace are you talking about? small blessings in life? or something like
that. If they are barred from eternal grace then what value does any small
blessings in this life have? Nothing as far as i am concerned.










"Denies that God has any sort of love for the
non-elect"


Nothing in scripture to suppose this is true. I mean we, the elect, are told to
love our enemies...so theres some good luvvin right there!

How can one say that God had love for the people He created to burn?
Strange kind of love, to create someone who never has an option to accept Jesus
but who's only eternal destiny is eternal torment in a lake of fire.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by zone on Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:15 pm


love you guys
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:02 pm

Adstar wrote:You believe and have stated that God created some people to burn. How then can
any offer of salvation be genuinely offered to them? What is the worth of an offer that cannot be accepted? It is not an offer at all if the ones who it is offered to are at the same time blocked from accepting it. The conclusion of
the calvinists above is legitimate if calvinism is true. And God does create some to burn and others for salvation.
Scripture says it not me! Lolz. If you want to tackle the scripture then go ahead. By all means.

No one said this is an easy concept to get yer head around but its right there in the bible. Some were made for honour and some for dishonour. Some vessels of destruction, some vesseld of mercy.

Jst coz the offer of salvation cant be taken up by some doesnt mean its not there for them. Whats the point? I dunno! Very Happy

Adstar wrote:
What grace are you talking about? small blessings in life? or something like
that. If they are barred from eternal grace then what value does any small
blessings in this life have? Nothing as far as i am concerned.
Uhm.....ease some suffering? Give them at least a descent life here on Earth? As far as your concerned its nothing, how about as far as they are concerned? Seeing as they are unbelievers, how much of a priority is having a good Earthy life?

Adstar wrote:How can one say that God had love for the people He created to burn?
Strange kind of love, to create someone who never has an option to accept Jesus
but who's only eternal destiny is eternal torment in a lake of fire.
Same concept really. Just coz He made them to burn doesnt mean He doesnt have any love for them in their lives.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Adstar on Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:20 am

Strangelove wrote:
Scripture says it not me! Lolz. If you want to tackle the scripture then go ahead. By all means.

No one said this is an easy concept to get yer head around but its right there in the bible. Some were made for honour and some for dishonour. Some vessels of destruction, some vesseld of mercy.

Jst coz the offer of salvation cant be taken up by some doesnt mean its not there for them. Whats the point? I dunno! Very Happy


Uhm.....ease some suffering? Give them at least a descent life here on Earth? As far as your concerned its nothing, how about as far as they are concerned? Seeing as they are unbelievers, how much of a priority is having a good Earthy life?


Same concept really. Just coz He made them to burn doesnt mean He doesnt have any love for them in their lives.

Well i have replied to the scriptures by showing you t is by Gods forknowledge that He predestines. But you have rejected that.


Jst coz the offer of salvation cant be taken up by some doesnt mean its not there for them. Whats the point? I dunno!

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say someone has been trully given an offer if they where never given the option of accepting it. Thats not an offer, thats a sick joke, a scam.


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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:35 am

Adstar wrote:Well i have replied to the scriptures by showing you t is by Gods forknowledge that He predestines. But you have rejected that.
Does 'foreknowledge' mean looking into the future to see what happens or is it just knowing the future because He makes the future?

Adstar wrote:
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say someone has been trully given an offer if they where never given the option of accepting it. Thats not an offer, thats a sick joke, a scam.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The taste of knowledge of Christ can effect people in positive ways even if they dont have the overall understanding to be saved. I stand by my position.

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Re: Calvinism

Post by Timotheos on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:26 pm

I don't have a feeling for or against Calvinism.
I do have input on 2 Peter 3:9
I looked at the Byzantine NT and it contains the word ημας, God is patient toward us. But the USB4 and WH Greek NTs contain the word ὑμᾶς, God is patient toward you. I kind of like the Byzantine better, but many scholars prefer UBS4. The KJV Only crowd likes the Byzantine better, but they are (can I say the word idiots?). They only like the Byzantine because it is closer to the beloved Textus Receptus, not because the Byzantine Monks were more conscientious scribes.
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Son of Israel on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:30 pm

Yep.
God pre-destined everything to happen. Life and death.

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

All we have left to do is choose it Smile
I choose Life!

Calvin was a murderer as well as a moron though. Why would anyone be associated with him, how bizarre.

Does everyone here know about the murderer Calvin?

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm
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Re: Calvinism

Post by Strangelove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:31 pm

Son of Israel wrote:Yep.
God pre-destined everything to happen. Life and death.

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

All we have left to do is choose it Smile
I choose Life!

Calvin was a murderer as well as a moron though. Why would anyone be associated with him, how bizarre.

Does everyone here know about the murderer Calvin?
Ya like.....why do I keep getting associated with this dude just coz I believe in predestination? confused

I've never read a word written by him!

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