Name debate

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:04 am

This is something i have been debating talking about for awhile, but something i have noticed. I have been praying about it. and I find more and more evidence to support my thought. Then i pray some more.


http://books.google.com/books?id=beEqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA275&lpg=PA275&dq=syrian+yahveh&source=bl&ots=LC3eTG7-qM&sig=wYUPUgwrS0sc3CgqPVJPBwx12qA&hl=en&ei=L2xrTf6MOoy2twe_tcnmAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=syrian%20yahveh&f=false
Yaveh and Baal peor the same person?


http://thelatterdays.blogspot.com/2009/03/worship-of-baal-peor.html
"Baal-Peor is a Moabite god who was worshipped with obscene rituals. The name means "Lord of the Opening" from Baal meaning owner/ husband and Peor coming from pa'ar meaning "open wide".



Yave is also a proto indian sun God.
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170&page=26



YHWH...False name?
http://www.jesus-messiah.com/studies/yahweh-full-copy.html

"This hypothesis is not intrinsically improbable, and in Aramaic, a language closely related to Hebrew, "to be" actually is hawa--but it should be noted that in adopting it we admit that, using the name Hebrew in the historical sense, Yahweh is not a Hebrew name. -Ency Brit 11Ed Vol 15 p 321 "




"The three dimensional Cube corresponds to The Holy Name Yahweh. The three dimensional Cube consists of 12 lines, 8 points, and 6 sides (12+8+6=26). The gematria of The Holy Name Yahweh is 26. The three dimensional Cube is The Holy Name of Yahweh expressed geometrically!"
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Sacred-Cube-Symbol&id=2793831



So... the tetragrammaton is...Baal...Maybe im just getting mixed up...It makes sense though...

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Strangelove on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:54 am

Oh ya...Zone has mentioned this thing about the tetragrammaton a few times, so lets get into this.

I also wanna sort out the different names for Jesus. Someone mentioned that calling Him Yeshu like the Messianic Jews do, is like a talmudic sly insult or summink?

Zonus?

_________________
"Gentlemen you cant fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Arrow IMPORTANT THREADS Arrow FORUM STATEMENT OF FAITH Arrow CHRISTIAN WILDERNESS BLOGSPOT

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
avatar
Strangelove
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3145
Age : 42
Gender : Male Location : Israel of God
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile http://christian-wilderness-blog.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by zone on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:05 pm

Strangelove wrote:Oh ya...Zone has mentioned this thing about the tetragrammaton a few times, so lets get into this.

I also wanna sort out the different names for Jesus. Someone mentioned that calling Him Yeshu like the Messianic Jews do, is like a talmudic sly insult or summink?

Zonus?
this can be a major rabbit hole.
here's what i have settled in my mind for the time being, though i would defer to Timo on this.

YHVH means roughly I AM THAT/WHO I AM.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Jesus used that Name Himself, and it helped get Him killed.

John 8
Before Abraham Was, I Am
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’c 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”d 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

i understand that apostate jews have attributed magical powers to the letters themselves (Kabbalah etc), and are just flat out weird about it.

when i see people claiming to be Christians use the Tetragrammaton or variations of it, or G-d, i suspect they've been judaized to some extent.

just because people have done blasphemous things with The Lord's Name or His Ways doesn't mean they aren't still His. being a Christian, i come to the Father through Jesus Christ, and He has given me the desire to call him ABBA, which is DADDY! that's hardly "ineffable", and doesn't get much more personal than that.

that's all i know.
avatar
zone
Mod
Mod

Posts : 3653
Gender : Female Location : In Christ
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Son of Israel on Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:00 pm

The tetragrammaton is preserved in the few ancient papyrus scrolls originally written by Moses, now in the Jewish Museum under lock and key. They don't let anybody see it for the most part because the old Hebrew has no resemblance to the babylonian/chaldean right to left aramaic that the Jews try to buffalo christendom into believing. I have the alphabet written in my Bible. It is very similar to English, almost identical to ancient Phonecian, who were the direct descendents of the 10 tribes of scattered Israel who never went to Babylon with the Jews.
I used to have a photo of the original LXX old Hebrew tetragrammaton off the papyrus on my old computer before it crashed. It's somewhere on the internet, unless the B'nai B'rith or somebody erased it.
The magical traits the jewish magicians came to believe existed in speaking the tetragrammaton, are folk tales amongst them even to this day. One of them is the children's story the jews still tell their children, the story of when Judas and Jesus were spell casting each other the Name of the tetragrammaton (pronounce ABBRA Kadabra [see the Abba?] and Alakazam, "god words") As they were fighting with the "name of god" as it goes, they arose higher and higher into the air, until Judas finally pissed on Jesus making him unclean, who then supposedly fell into hell. Judas is idolized and revered by the jews. He stands for the modern jews as Bruce Lee now stands for China.
The tetragrammaton literally does mean "I AM WHO I AM AND WILL BE IN MULTITUDES".
It is the Christian Hope. The many waters in Christ. So the Jews are affecting folks with baal type disinformation. So it goes...

Just more of the mystery of iniquity at work.
avatar
Son of Israel

Posts : 109
Age : 62
Gender : Male Location : Merlin Oregon
Join date : 2011-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Strangelove on Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:26 pm

Does 'Yeshu' mean 'may his name be blotted out'?

_________________
"Gentlemen you cant fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Arrow IMPORTANT THREADS Arrow FORUM STATEMENT OF FAITH Arrow CHRISTIAN WILDERNESS BLOGSPOT

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
avatar
Strangelove
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3145
Age : 42
Gender : Male Location : Israel of God
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile http://christian-wilderness-blog.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Yes doc im pretty sure it does. (oh and... HI...im back from my tantrum...hah!)



KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:03 pm

, The Talmud- the Toldoth Yeshu- Kabbalah- the Shem Tov book of Mathew, Yeshua and "the Way", Yeshua the Torah-keeper, Yeshua's movement and home based groups, Yeshua's movement: a The Vineyard movement ?

The Talmud, the Toldoth Yeshu, the writings of the Jewish mystical system known as Kabbalah, as well as the Shem Tov book of Mathew, which is part of the Jewish writing titled Even Bohan.

The Talmud speaks negatively of Jesus in various books that comprise its writings. The Talmud is a rabbinic commentary on the Torah, which some Christians know as the first five books of the Old Testament. Recently, some in Judaism have tried to state that the Talmud is speaking of another person(s) named Yeshua(Jesus), and not Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ), but conervative rabbi’s such as Daniel Lapin have clearly stated that the Talmud does in fact denigrate “Jesus”.
In the Talmud, great measures are taken so that Yeshua(Jesus) is never referred to by His actual Hebrew name of Yeshua, because His name itself means He is Salvation, and is a description of His finished work. Yeshua(Jesus) is referred by many othe names and titles such as Otho Iysh, which is translated in the English version as “that man”. In Abhodah Zarah, 6a, it is stated that “He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath”.

Yeshua(Jesus) is also referred to as Peloni , which is translated as “A Certain One.” In Chagigah, 4b, we read:
“Mary…the mother of a certain one, of whom it is related in Schabbath…” (104b)

Jesus is also referred to as Naggar bar naggar – “the carpenter son of a carpenter”, also Ben charsch etaim – “the son of a wood worker.”

He is also called Talui – “The one who was hanged.” and him who was hanged, as well as “the one who was hanged on his banner.”

Below are some Talmudic passages that denigrate Christ:

Sanhedrin, 67a ~ Jesus is referred to as the illegitimate son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus’ mother was a whore

Sanhedrin 106 ~ Revels in the early age at which Jesus died

Sanhedrin 43a ~ Says Jesus (”Yeshu” / Yeshu “the Nazarene”) was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Gittin 57a ~ States that Jesus is being boiled in “hot excrement.”

Sanhedrin 43a . Jesus deserved execution: “On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged…Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?”

Abhodah Zarah II ~ Also referred to as the son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.

Schabbath XIV~ Again referred to as the son of Pandira, the Roman.

Schabbath, 104b ~ Called a fool and no one pays attention to fools.

Sanhedrin, 103a. ~ Suggested corrupts his morals and dishonors self.

Sanhedrin, 107b. ~ Seduced, corrupted and destroyed Israel.

Abhodah Zarah, 21a — Reference to worship of Jesus in homes unwanted.

Orach Chaiim, 113 — Avoid appearance of paying respect to Jesus.

Iore dea, 150,2 — Do not appear to pay respect to Jesus by accident.

Abhodah Zarah (78c) — Festivals of followers of Jesus regarded as idolatry.

Kallah, 1b. (18b) ~ Illegitimate son and conceived during menstruation.

Sanhedrin, 67a ~ Hanged on the eve of Passover.

Sanhedrin, 43a ~ On the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus.

Sanhedrin 90a ~Those who read the New Testament will have no portion in the world to come.

Shabbath 116a (p. 569) ~Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

Rosh Hashanah 17a ~ Christians (”minim”) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.

Sanhedrin 105ab ~ “Jesus fornicated with his jackass.

Gittin 57a ~ Jesus is in hell and is being punished by being boiled in semen. Christians are boiled in dung.

Talmudic passages are also used as the basis for the writing titled Toledot Yeshu, which translated means The Geneaology of Yeshu. This writing reports a distorted view of who Jesus was, with many blasphemous statements directed towards Him, claiming that he was the rebellious illegitimate son of a Roman soldier (Pantera) born of unclean conception or niddah, who practiced witchcraft by speaking the sacred or ineffefable name of God who tried to lead Israel astray. In this writing, it is also stated that he set up a brick and worshipped it, and that he was hung, which denies the blood atonement, and His finished work on the cross. The actual Biblical name for Jesus in Hebrew is spelled Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin which is Yeshua (H3442~H3443), a shortened form of Yehoshua (H3091). Yeshua means He is salvation or He saves. By shortening the name to Yeshu, they effectively deny His work of redemption. In order to get the name Yeshu, the ayin is dropped from His Biblical Hebrew name. All Hebrew letters represent something in Judaism. As an example, the lettter represents the hand. The letter ayin in the Hebrew language, is known to be representative of the eyes. Here is an excerpt from the Toldoth Yeshu:

Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu.

The above quote from the Toldoth Yeshu tells us that His name deteriorated to Yeshu. Deteriorated is a term that obviously does not have a positive connotation. It should be noted that informed believers object to the name Yeshu, because they understand it as a rabbinically modified form of the name Yeshua, and In some versions of the Toledot Yeshu, the name “YeSHU” is used as an acronym for “Yemach Shemo U’zikhro” which translated means “May his name and memory be blotted out”. Yemach comes from the root word Machah (H4229) meaning to blot, Shemo from the root word shem (H8034) which means name or reputation, and zikhro from the root word zayker (H2143), which means a memorial or remembrance. This statement is spoken in the form of a curse, because to erase the name and memory of a person is to erase all knowledge of their being. It should also be noted, that this phrase, or a shortened version is often used in Jewish writings when the name of a despised individual (Hitler, Amalek, Hayman, etc) has been mentioned. This could be a possible allusion to Psalms 109:13-15, where king David curses the enemies of Israel:

13 let his posterity be cut off; let their name be blotted out (yimach shemam) in the following generation;
14 let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered to YHWH; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out;
15 let them be always before YHWH, so that He may cut off the memory of them from the earth; (v’yak’rat ma’erets zikram)

It could also be fashioned after the Biblical curses found in the Torah, that were placed on the enemies of Israel, such as Exodus 17:14 and Deuteronomy 25:19. In Exodus we find “machoh emche et zeykher Amaleq mitachat hashamayim” translated as “I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven”. Amalek is also cursed in Deuteronomy 25:19 as well.

In the Shem Tov Matthew, in many places the name of Jesus is also written in the Hebrew as Yeshu. The Shem Tov Matthew is a theologically altered middle ages manuscript (1390 ce), which was copied from a Latin text that originated from the Greek making it a third generation altered copy at best. This anti-Catholic version of the book of Matthew was included in the writing titled “Even Bohan” which translates as “The Touchstone.” The Shem Tov Matthew has modified passages in some chapters that use Talmudic references, as well as some references from the Toldoth Yeshu.

This document was authored by Shem Tov, who resided in Spain during the fourteenth century. He was an anti-Catholicims Jewish writer, who wrote this in an attempt to stop the Jewish people from accepting Catholiscism as their faith. The Shem Tov Matthew has anti-Catholic polemical commentary written by him throughout the document. There are a handfull of Shem Tov manuscripts available, but many of them are not in agreement with each other. Before his death, Shem Tov attempted to also translate a theologically altered version of the book of Mark, as he had done with Matthew, but the work was never completed.
Yeshu is currently the name that many people refer to Yeshua(Jesus) as when speaking modern Hebrew in Israel.
“The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do.”

There are some in the Messianic Jewish Community that tell us that we must adhere to the doctrines of the Rabbis. They think that Yeshua Himself commanded this in Mt. 23:2-3. Their reasoning is not correct because their interpretation of the passage is faulty. Yeshua wasn’t telling us to walk out our faith in Him by rabbinical teachings but rather to obey the authorities of the land (the Scribes, Pharisees and Rabbis; vv. 3, 5, 7, etc.), in their judicial and legislative capacities.
At the end of the day, the question is what makes more sense?, that Yeshua commanded his disciples to obey Moses or that Yeshua recognized the Pharisees as having some type of god-given Mosaic authority and commanded his disciples to obey them?. Ultimately this is a decision that those who believe in Yeshua must make for themselves. They must decide whether they believe in Yeshua(Jesus ) the Pharisee seemingly presented in Greek Matthew 23:3 or whether they believe in Yeshua the Torah-keeper who warns his disciples against the man-made religion of the Pharisees as preserved in Hebrew Matthew 23:3, Hebrew Matthew 15, and even Greek Matthew 15.

I would admonish anyone who has been using any of the above writings that I have evaluated as a source of learning and wisdom, to turn away from them immediately. In the NT writings we are told that Messiaht and Belial have no fellowship, therefore we need to understand that it is impossible to learn about who Yeshua(Jesus) is and what He has done, from those who have not only openly denied Him and His finished work on the cross, but also have intentionally and deliberately blasphemed Him.

http://findmyheritage.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/the-shem-tob-manuscripts-the-talmud-and-the-toldoth-yeshu/

(im not quite sure on how correct this guy is on any other point...and I havent read much from him...but this article is as correct as i Know.)

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:30 pm

Oh...and About the Name YHWH...like i have previously posted...and Like Son of Israel Said above...its NOT Ancient hebrew...Ehyeh is The correct way to say "IAM" ...from what i gathered. HowEVER...Ehyeh is now becomming popular...and "modern kabbalists" Use the Word Ehyeh...So...Im just goign to Call Jesus, Jesus, And GOD, Father.

I was goignto go into a big Name break down...but all that matters is LOVE of God...And Our master called him Father...SO, so will I.

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Strangelove on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:42 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Yes doc im pretty sure it does. (oh and... HI...im back from my tantrum...hah!)
Welcome back Rob!

I didnt see it as a tantrum mate. A lot of the stuff we get into on this forum can be a bit overbearing at times. Just ask zone, I can only talk to her and do joint research for an hour at a time over yahoo messenger and then I need to take a break. It's just too much sometimes.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
It should be noted that informed believers object to the name Yeshu, because they understand it as a rabbinically modified form of the name Yeshua, and In some versions of the Toledot Yeshu, the name “YeSHU” is used as an acronym for “Yemach Shemo U’zikhro” which translated means “May his name and memory be blotted out”. Yemach comes from the root word Machah (H4229) meaning to blot, Shemo from the root word shem (H8034) which means name or reputation, and zikhro from the root word zayker (H2143), which means a memorial or remembrance. This statement is spoken in the form of a curse, because to erase the name and memory of a person is to erase all knowledge of their being. It should also be noted, that this phrase, or a shortened version is often used in Jewish writings when the name of a despised individual (Hitler, Amalek, Hayman, etc) has been mentioned. This could be a possible allusion to Psalms 109:13-15, where king David curses the enemies of Israel:
Thats exactly what I was looking for Rob! Thanks Bro.

_________________
"Gentlemen you cant fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Arrow IMPORTANT THREADS Arrow FORUM STATEMENT OF FAITH Arrow CHRISTIAN WILDERNESS BLOGSPOT

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
avatar
Strangelove
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3145
Age : 42
Gender : Male Location : Israel of God
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile http://christian-wilderness-blog.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Timotheos on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:22 am

I was just reading in Acts, chapter 19, about certain people who were trying to use Jesus' name to do "magical" exorcisms. It didn't work out too well for them.

We need to know God, not just his name.
avatar
Timotheos

Posts : 55
Age : 53
Gender : Male Location : Wisconsin
Join date : 2011-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by ada on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:42 pm

KingdomSeeker wrote:Oh...and About the Name YHWH...like i have previously posted...and Like Son of Israel Said above...its NOT Ancient hebrew...Ehyeh is The correct way to say "IAM" ...from what i gathered. HowEVER...Ehyeh is now becomming popular...and "modern kabbalists" Use the Word Ehyeh...So...Im just goign to Call Jesus, Jesus, And GOD, Father.

I was goignto go into a big Name break down...but all that matters is LOVE of God...And Our master called him Father...SO, so will I.

Thank you brother, exactly how i see it.
avatar
ada

Posts : 291
Age : 53
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-03-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:43 am

ada wrote:

Thank you brother, exactly how i see it.

You welcome Sister Ada! Smile and Hello, A pleasure to meet you Smile




KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Timotheos on Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:34 am

Umm, I think Ada is a young man.
Razz
avatar
Timotheos

Posts : 55
Age : 53
Gender : Male Location : Wisconsin
Join date : 2011-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:20 pm

Hahah SO he is! Sorry about that Ada. Nice to meet you Brother.

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:10 pm

And For every thing AGAINST a certain point, there must be something FOR it as well. I have been doing research on the person Yeshu. In MORE than one place, i have read taht it is NOT a name, For Jesus, that the Talmud does not refer to Jesus. THIS is a palce where i find the most information. Take it as it is.




Passage #2: Yeshu

Talmud Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a
*immage unavailable*(was in hebrew)

What of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah?
When John [Hyrcanus] the king killed the rabbis, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah [and Yeshu] went to Alexandria of Egypt. When there was peace, Shimon Ben Shetach sent to him "From me [Jerusalem] the holy city to you Alexandria of Egypt. My husband remains in your midst and I sit forsaken."
[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] left and arrived at a particular inn and they showed him great respect. He said: How beautiful is this inn [Achsania, which also means innkeeper].
[Yeshu] said: Rabbi, she has narrow eyes.
[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] said to him: Wicked one, this is how you engage yourself?
[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] sent out four hundred trumpets and excommunicated him.
[Yeshu] came before [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] many times and said: Accept me. But [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] paid him no attention.
One day [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] was reciting Shema [during which one may not be interrupted]. [Yeshu] came before him. He was going to accept [Yeshu] and signalled to [Yeshu] with his hand. [Yeshu] thought that [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] was repelling him. He went, hung a brick, and bowed down to it.
[Yeshu] said to [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah]: You taught me that anyone who sins and causes others to sin is not given the opportunity to repent.
And the master said: Yeshu {the Notzri} practiced magic and deceive and led Israel astray.

Background and Summary
Note that historians differ on the exact years of these events. For simplicity, we will assume the latest possible dates as suggested by Gershon Tannenbaum [Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia, p. 87].
John Hyrcanus was a successful king and soldier. During a banquet celebrating his victories in 93 BCE, some Pharisee rabbis offended him and he was convinced by Sadducee leaders to try to kill every Pharisee rabbi [Hyman, vol. II pp. 691-692, 766]. Some rabbis, such as R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah and his student Yeshu, fled to Alexandria outside of John Hyrcanus's reach [Hyman vol. II pp. 647, 692]. Shimon Ben Shetach, however, was hidden in Jerusalem by his sister, Salome Alexandra, who was John Hyrcanus's daughter-in-law [Hyman, vol. II pp. 647, 692, 766, vol. III pp. 1212-1213]. The extremely diverse religious population of Palestine, full of sects such as the Essenes, Kumrans, and numerous other groups, was temporarily devoid of any public Pharisee leaders.
By the year 91 BCE, John Hyrcanus and his sons Antigonus and Aristobulos had died and his third son Alexander Janneus became king. Even though Alexander Janneus was an ardent Sadducee, his wife convinced him to appoint his Pharisaic brother-in-law, Shimon Ben Shetach, to the Sanhedrin, then dominated by Sadducees. Slowly, over the course of a number of years, Shimon Ben Shetach outshone his Sadducee opponents in the Sanhedrin and appointed his Pharisaic students as members [Hyman, vol. II pp. 766-767, vol. III pp. 1213-1214].
By the year 80 BCE it was finally safe for the Pharisee rabbis to quietly return and Shimon Ben Shetach sent a cryptic note to his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah, encouraging him to return [Hyman, vol. II pp. 647-648, vol. III pp. 1213-1214].
Some 50 to 60 years after the great Pharisaic victory of the Hasmoneans, in which Pharisees rebelled against the Greek-Syrians and gained the monarchy, these Pharisee rabbis returned to a country full of heretical sects that had either integrated aspects of Hellenist paganism into their religion or had, in an attempt to repel all unproven influence, rejected the traditions of the rabbis. The Pharisees who remembered the prominence in which they had so recently been held were now witnesses to the disintegration of their religious society.
While returning, Yeshu misunderstood one of his teacher's remarks and said something that demonstrated that he was interested in and looking at married women. As sexual promiscuity was a sign of many of the Hellenist sects, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah suspected his student of being yet another leader influenced by Hellenism and had him excommunicated [this hasty conclusion was condemned by the Talmud a few lines before our passage]. After many attempts by Yeshu to reconcile with his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah was finally ready. However, Yeshu approached him while he was reciting Shema, the most important part of the morning prayer during which he could not stop to speak. He motioned to Yeshu with his hand which was misinterpreted as a signal to go away. Yeshu finally gave up and fulfilled his teacher's suspicion. He adopted a pagan religion and went on to create his own sect of Judaism and lead many Jews astray.
Proof
Some historians note some similarities here between Yeshu and Jesus. Most notably, in one manuscript of the Talmud he is called Yeshu the Notzri which could be rendered (with only a little difficulty) Jesus the Nazarene.
Problems
1. Yeshu lived about a century before Jesus.
2. Only one of the approximately four distinct manuscripts available have the title HaNotzri (possibly, the Nazarene). None of the other manuscripts contain that title which make it suspect as a later interpolation, as medieval commentators suggest [cf. Menachem HaMeiri, Beit Habechirah, Sotah ad. loc.].
3. Notzri does not necessarily mean Nazarene. It is actually a biblical term (Jeremiah 4:16). While centuries later it was undoubtedly used to refer to Christians in the form of Notzrim or Netzarim, it could have been a term used to refer to many strong communities. The name "Ben Netzar" was used by the Talmud to refer to the famous chief of robbers Odenathus of Palmyra [see Marcus Jastrow's Dictionary p. 930]
4. The name Yeshu alone could have been common. We know that the name Jesus was common [see Collossians 4:11 and above].
5. Other than the name, nothing in the story fits anything we know about Jesus.



I Don't post this to defend ANYBODY. The Zohar is still not anything a christian should be reading and putting torwards thier bible studdying. The Talmud, is also NOT of God. It DOES say some bad things about Christians in it, However...OF COURSE IT DOES, becasue Jews dont beleive Jesus to have been the messiah, However in my readings, it is NOT Calling Jesus(Yehoshua) Yeshu...this is a reference to someone else.

(...We cant be one sided...there are ALLOT of evil people in The "Christian faith" as well, that may want to slander others...This has not been posted to refute ANY OTHER EVIDENCE other then Yeshu may not be A reference to Jesus. Yes the Talmud still Gloats of the self-righteousness of the Jews, "Chullin (91b) -- Jews possess dignity even an angel cannot share" But thats what the Law does...Anyway Look this over maybe. )


Oh...and i know, i know "Zohar (1,160a). -- Jews must always try to deceive Christians." But still, I care more about the spiritual wellbeing of my Brothers and sisters then i do a book. SO take a look at this...pray about it.

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by zone on Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:15 pm

thats a disinfo campaign you've tapped into Rob.
jeshu is a derisive name for Jesus.
i've been down that road.

anyways...what does it matter? they hate Him, we know that.
avatar
zone
Mod
Mod

Posts : 3653
Gender : Female Location : In Christ
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Strangelove on Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:48 pm

the Talmud does not refer to Jesus

The Jewish Encyclopedia says that Jesus is described in the talmud.

"The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. In view of their general character they are called indiscriminately legends."

"It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard Jesus as the "son of Pandera", although it is noteworthy that he is called also "Ben Sṭada" (Shab. 104b; Sanh. 67a)."

"According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it;"


"Different in nature is the witchcraft attributed to Jesus in the "Toledot."

"A passage of the Talmud (Sanh. 43a) ascribes five disciples to Jesus: "Matthai" (Matthew), "Nakai" (Luke), "Nezer" (Nazarene, a general designation for Christian in antiquity), "Boni" (probably the Nicodemus mentioned by John), and "Thoda" (Thaddæus). The following are mentioned in the "Toledot" (Huldricus, p. 35): "Simeon" (Peter), "Matthia" (Matthew), "Elikum" (Luke), "Mordecai" (Mark), "Thoda" (Thaddæus), and "Johannos" (John)—that is, the four evangelists plus Peter and Thaddæus. Paul is mentioned in another connection, and (p. 48) Judas "the betrayer": it is to be noted that the last-named does not occur at all in Talmudic legends."

"some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge."

"Jesus performed all his miracles by means of magic"

_________________
"Gentlemen you cant fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Arrow IMPORTANT THREADS Arrow FORUM STATEMENT OF FAITH Arrow CHRISTIAN WILDERNESS BLOGSPOT

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
avatar
Strangelove
Admin
Admin

Posts : 3145
Age : 42
Gender : Male Location : Israel of God
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile http://christian-wilderness-blog.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:03 pm

Yeah, i know Doc...i have read it.

Just, Well Read what i posted. Can some one prove to me(im not saying one way or another...at the moment...Most of what i read form people, up until recently, about Yeshu, has been taken out of context) That it IS Jesus beign talked about?

Here is the website i got the above post from(thought i posted it ...guess i forgt to)

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by KingdomSeeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:14 pm

The Toldoth yeshu was written in the Middle ages...But Yeshu, was mentioned in the Talmud, WAAAY before the midle ages...I dont know its just... im finding new stuff i havent thought about before, you guys are my family in The Lord, and truly the only ones i can discuss this with...so...Thanksh Smile

KingdomSeeker

Posts : 242
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by ada on Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:46 pm

Often i see that messianic s uses the tetragrammaton what is
supposed or derived from Yeshua Hanozri Wemelech Hajehudim.
But is this really correct and how do we handle this ?
I have problems with it and would never use it.

Here is why.

Its heavy involved with freemasonry, solomon,kabbalah and the occult.
It represents the name of the judeo-christian g_d who is not our God.
Its pentagram is a symbol for occultism used by eliphas levi, aleister crowley,blavatsky and other scourers..


from the masonic leader
http://themasonicleader.com/?p=417
The Tetragrammaton
Posted on February 1, 2011 by leader

The first three degrees of Craft Masonry are built around the construction of King Solomon’s temple. In the third degree we learn of the death of our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, who died to protect the Master’s word. What word could be so important that a man would choose death rather than reveal it? Why would a word be so important that three men would choose to become murderers in a vain attempt to obtain it?

In the Royal Arch Degree this word is discovered by the Sojourners. This word is considered to be so powerful that the Sojourners refuse to pronounce it. To this day this word is reverently displayed on a pedestal in Royal Arch Chapters. According to ‘Royal Arch Terms Explained “ by Roy A. Wells, this word J E H 0 V A H is a manufactured word which stands for the intention of the following Hebrew Characters – Ha Vav He Hod. These characters translate int the English letters Y H W H. This is the personal name of the Most High and is referred to as “the ineffable name’ and is also known as the TETRAGRAMMATON. TETRAGRAMMATON is a Greek word meaning four letters. Because these Hebrew characters had no vowels between them the original pronunciation of the word has been lost. The Hebrews substituted the word Adonai whenever the name appeared in the original writings. Jehovah is a combination of the TETRAGRAMMATON together with those vowels from Adonai.




Everything is contained in a single word, which consists
of four letters ; it is the Tetragram of the Hebrews, the
AzpT of the alchemists, the Thot of the Bohemians, or
the Taro of the Kabbalists. This word, expressed after so
many manners, means God for the profane, man for the
philosophers, and imparts to the adepts the final word of
human sciences and the key of divine power ; but he only
can use it who understands the necessity of never revealing
it.
http://www.archive.org/details/transcendentalma00leviuoft

Here is an overview of vommentaries on the tetragrammaton
from different persons.All well known anti-christian.
http://www.virtuescience.com/tetragrammaton.html
avatar
ada

Posts : 291
Age : 53
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-03-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:03 pm

ya that whole sacred name thing is OUT OF IT.

JESUS IS HIS NAME!

here's something from a guy i get emails from weekly.

he's got ideas i dont agree with (future millenium etc), but he's like doc, a jew now christian, so he knows that stuff.

Sister, the falling away is indeed great. And we thought the falling away was just into sin. Now we are seeing the truth behind “falling away” (2Thes 2:3) which in the Greek is “apostasy” (Strong’s #646) is associated with the “man of sin” which we also refer to as the antichrist. We also know the antichrist will be a Kabbalist Jew and this means his god before he makes himself into a god, will be YHWH. Because YHWH is the basis of Kabbalah. And without YHWH there is no Kabbalism. We can see then, that the lapse back under the Law in disguise of worshipping YHWH above Jesus, makes their screaming “halleluyah” to YHWH father god, worship never intended for Jesus. Jesus name is then not the highest name or only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12). There has been great deceptions going on since about 562BC and the so-called Jewish Bible in which they interpolated YHWH. Wherein they put the name of their idol god that got them evicted from Jerusalem to Babylon. Since that time, there has been great deception. Jesus called it darkness. And he represented his doctrine as LIGHT. And he made reference to those who were law-keepers as being in darkness. How then can anyone go back from LIGHT to darkness? Except to go back to the Law-keeping of the Pharisees. Of course they do not call themselves Pharisees today. They use terms such as Orthodox, or Haredim, or Karites, and so forth. But don’t people understand they are trading Grace for CURSE? Why are they so brain dead? And to think they really keep the Sabbath law is a hoot. No one keeps the Sabbath law. NO ONE! Keeping the Sabbath is not just holding a day and not working. It includes staying in the house and killing all Sabbath breakers. If they do not kill the Sabbath breakers they break the Sabbath law. And to say the death penalty was removed by the death of Jesus, shows us they are two-faced. On the one hand they say we must keep the Sabbath and on the other hand tell us if we break it we have mercy and grace in the death of Christ to escape the death penalty. So, in their ignorance they confess there is no penalty anymore for breaking the Sabbath. There being no penalty, then the law is moot. A law without a penalty is no law.

I have been posting some really important things on my blog over the past couple weeks. They may be shocking to some, but to the elect they will see the Truth.

Jesus bless you more and more for staying in Grace. For there all the favor and love of God is found.

~

and also from him:

In our on-going discussions about Jesus and New Testament Judaism, there are important things for us to remember.

First, was Jesus the true Messieh? The Temple cult said no. Jesus said yes. Whom do we believe?

“Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed” (Mark 14:61)

And Jesus said I am” (Mark 14:62a

“Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, what need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy. What think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death” (Mark 14:63-64).

When Jesus admitted he was the Christ Messieh, the Son of the Blessed, the Temple cult condemned him to death. To claim to be Christ was admitting to being a king of the Davidic seedline. The Temple cult denied Jesus was heir of the Davidic lineage to be the Messieh.

It was the accusation of his being king that was placed over his head on the Cross: “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

Now the Temple cult did not like this and ask Pilate to remove this writing, and reword it, but Pilate refused. Because it was indeed the very reason Jesus was being crucified. He claimed to be King of the Jews and the Jews denied this as blasphemy.

When we take a true look at Jesus and ask was he the Messieh? We can only come to a valid conclusion if we answer some simple questions.

1.) Was Jesus qualified to be the Messieh?

2.) Did Jesus come as Messieh in the time frame prophesied by Daniel the prophet in chapter 9:25-26.

3.) Did Jesus fulfill other essential prophecies?

4.) What will the Messieh accomplish?

5.) Is the testimony of the angels true?

6.) Did God really speak from heaven at the baptism of Jesus?

7.) Did Jesus do miracles by the power of God?

8.) Was Jesus resurrected from the grave on the third day?

9.) Was Jesus seen after his resurrection?

10.) Did Jesus ascend to heaven from the Mt of Olives?

The Temple cult will say no to numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

The Temple cult will say in answer to #4 that Jesus did not fulfill what the Messieh was to accomplish.

I will now answer each of these by number. Being a Christian New Testament Jew I am qualified to speak from a Jewish perspective. And so were the Apostles who were Jewish. Our New Testament was written by Jews except for Luke and Acts which were written by Luke a Greek physician who was converted to New Testament Judaism.

Let me say from the beginning, that the true Apostolic Church is Jewish. It is the true Judaism of Jesus. It has nothing to do with the Temple cult Judaism. Because of this, the Apostles were not priests of the Law and they were not preachers of the Law. They were priests and preachers of the Gospel. The Good news that salvation has come to the world.

1.) Was Jesus qualified? The original requirement for the Messieh was that he must be of the seedline of king David (Psalms 132:11). He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). A virgin would birth him (Isaiah 7:14). A star would appear at the time of his birth (Numbers 24:17) . He would be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting father, and the Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6). Jesus qualified. It is right here the Temple cult objects. They schemed up their own list of qualifications between 1200 and 1900AD. It is these schemed up qualifications they now use to deceive thousands that Jesus did not qualify to be the Messieh.

2.) Did Jesus come as Messieh in the time frame prophesied by Daniel the prophet in chapter 9:25-26? The answer is yes. What is the time frame Messieh must come? When we read verses 25 and 26 we discover the Messieh will come by the 69th week of years. That is, he will appear in the 483rd year after the decree goes forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. It is agreed by the majority of scholars that his decree was issued in the year 457BC by Artaxerxes. He gave Ezra the authority to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. Since the Messieh must come in the year 483 we can see that Jesus must appear as the Messieh in the year 26-27AD. And if Jesus began his ministry at the age of 30, this means he was born 3-4BC. Most scholars agree with these figures. What is important here? It is this, if Jesus is not the Messieh who fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel, then the Temple cult is forced to trot out their messiah who did. But they have none. They have presented none. This is a great embarrassment to the Jews that they have no messiah to fulfill this important time frame for the Messieh to appear. And remember, it was the angel Gabriel who gave these numbers to Daniel. Did an angel of God lie? If Jesus was not the Messieh, then no Messieh appeared and the angel lied. It is just that simple. What has been an embarrassment to the Jews is that Jesus came right on time and they cannot prove he did not.

3.) Did Jesus fulfill other essential prophecies? Yes. He fulfilled over 300 prophecies. These are well documented in the New Testament with references back to the Old Testament. The odds of any man fulfilling all these has already been calculated to be one in one hundred trillion. I have a large list of these prophecies he fulfilled. If you would like them please email me and I will forward them to you.

4.) What will the Messieh accomplish? The angel Gabriel said he would save his people from their sins. He will establish the kingdom of David again and will rule over all Israel. He will be a light to the Gentiles. He will suffer rejection by his own people. He will also be made to suffer physical injury and hurt. He will bring salvation. For his name Jesus means God has become our salvation.

5.) Is the testimony of the angels true? For the Apostles and Christians they say yes. They Jews say no. There will be no agreement between them. If the angel Gabriel lied to Daniel, lied to Elizabeth, and lied to Mary and Joseph, then of course Jesus was false and the whole New Testament is false. While Jews are quick to say the angel Gabriel lied, or did not speak what is recorded to have been spoken, they have no proof other than their denials, the angel did not speak and the angel lied. It is these kinds of acts of hatred of Jews against Jesus that attracts many who also find a reason to hate him. These become easy candidates for conversion to Judaism that rejects Jesus as the Messieh.

6.) Did God really speak from heaven at the baptism of Jesus? Yes. God spoke from heaven and in the words spoken gives the world notice that Jesus is not a bastard, a mamzer as the Jews call him. God called him “my son.” The Jews say his father was a Roman soldier and Mary was a whore. The New Testament does not in any way contain any information that would lead a person to believe this. The Jews on the other hand get great joy to accuse Jesus of being a bastard and his mother a whore. This is an attack against God who spoke from heaven and said: “this is my beloved Son.” While some may convert to the Jews and accept this hatred of Jesus and his mother, those with any measure of common sense would never allow their minds to be contaminated with this kind of viral hate. God did speak at the baptism of Jesus. No one will ever be able to change what has already happened.

7.) Did Jesus do miracles by the power of God? Yes. The Jews even admitted that no man could do these miracles unless God was with him (see John 3:2 where Nicodemus speaks for the whole Sanhedrin).

8.) Was Jesus resurrected from the grave on the third day? Yes. The eyewitnesses were many. The New Testament bears witness to the resurrection. Not only these, but the prophecy of Jesus that the Holy Spirit cannot come until he goes away, shows us when the Holy Spirit came, Jesus had gone to heaven 10 days prior. While the Jews continue to say Jesus died and someone stole his body, they have never produced the body to prove their claims.

9.) Was Jesus seen after his resurrection? Yes, by over 500 people. These remain committed Christian believers after Jesus ascended. The Jews could not get them to deny what they saw with their eyes.

10.) Did Jesus ascend to heaven from the Mt of Olives? Yes. It is here we have the testimony of two more angels. And these tell the Apostles and those gathered that Jesus would come again as he went away. It is in these words of angels we have the hope of the future rapture at the coming of Jesus. Where will Jesus come back to earth? At the Mt. of Olives.

Faith in Jesus as the Messieh and believing he was God manifest in the flesh cannot be denied. Anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh, John said they were antichrist. Anyone who denies Jesus was the Christ, the Messieh, John said was an antichrist. It is right here, Jews desire to make antichrist out of every person they can convince Jesus was a false Messieh. At the same time, the Jews want their converts to believe in their god YHWH who has been identified by scholars to be Yahweh a pagan idol god. The Amorites had a god name Yahwe. And there are many other idol gods of the Canaanites who were “yah” gods. We now know that Yah is the Egyptian moon god. And we also now know from Jews and Muslims that Allah and Yahweh YHWH are the same god. Scholars believe Allah is the moon god and that is why the crescent moon on an Asherah pole is the symbol of Allah. As Apostolics we are dedicated to the name of Jesus. Our baptism is in his name. He is our Savior. And he is our Messieh.

There are now many thousands of Jews who no longer are held in mental captivity by rabbis who hate Jesus and Christians. They have escaped. They no longer want to be associated with a religion that calls angels liars, that says God did not speak from heaven at the baptism of Jesus, and who deny Jesus qualified to be the Messieh. These Messianic Jews are beginning to fulfill the endtime prophecies of the 144,000 remnant. We are seeing some come to Acts 2:38 salvation.

A reminder: Because the Jews rejected Jesus they turned God against them. And 40 years later Jerusalem was destroyed. The Temple was burned down. And from that time till now the judgments of God against Jerusalem has not been lifted. Jews should take notice that God is against them. And God is against everyone who joins with these Jews. When Jesus comes, he comes in flaming fire to execute judgment on those who know not God and who obeyed not the Gospel of Christ. Let all of us do as the Apostles and other Jewish Christians, and depart from those who deny Jesus was the Messieh.

These are times for us to be on guard not only with Jews who hate Jesus, but with other cults who also in one way or another deny being filled with the Holy Ghost. I urge all who receive this email, to make sure you are Holy Ghost filled according to Acts 2:1-4. And make sure you are in a Church that believes in the Jesus of Nazareth who was and is the Messieh of Israel. He is our Lord.
avatar
zone
Mod
Mod

Posts : 3653
Gender : Female Location : In Christ
Join date : 2011-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by ada on Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:40 am

Amen!
Thank you zone.
avatar
ada

Posts : 291
Age : 53
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-03-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by ada on Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:17 pm

SACRED NAME OF GOD? or BLASPHEMY?
By Roger Hathaway

I genuinely appreciate that many people are attempting to take a
sincere religious
position by honoring a sacred name for God, like Yahweh. I think it is
being done somewhat in reaction against the organized Christian churches which are nothing
more than painted sepulchres. Unfortunately, most people are not aware that such
"sacred?" names originated in non-Israelite pagan cultures of the Ancient Near
East. There is evidence that YHWH was the name of a god worshiped by neighboring
races but there is no evidence that such a name was used by true Israelites in
ancient times. From the historical evidence, it appears that the Edomites have
given true Israelites one more fraud which some of our people have claimed with enthusiasm,
even making it central to their religion. Here are some details of the history
of the word YHWH.


It seems that the use of a personal name for God, specifically YHWH,
came into
practice during the captivities as some of the Israelites adopted this
Aramaean
deity. The name probably came officially
to the Israelite religion when the Edomites joined the Jerusalem Temple
about 150 years before
Christ. There is evidence that Yahweh had been the Edomite's lord as far

back as 1,400 BC. The oldest known appearance of the name YHWH outside
the Holy
Land was in Egypt about 1,400 BC where it is found on lists with five
other
sacred names. A Rameses II (1304-1237) list has it 6 times. In an Amon
temple of
AmenhotepIII (1417-1379 BC) the name is associated with Seir (Edom).
Other
evidence places it with Syria at 1,400 BC. That was near the time of
Moses. What
is significant and important is that the Egyptian lists do not associate
the name with the Israelites
who were a nearby existing community at the time. Inside the Palestine
area, the earliest appearance of the name is on the Mesha Stele (9th C.
BC), a royal inscription, where Mesha,
the king of Moab, recounts the favor of Moab's deity in delivering Moab
from
control of its neighbor, Israel. It appears to me that, since the name
had
been connected with Edom from the 14th C. BC, it probably became
important to
the Jerusalem Temple after the
Edomites took that over, after they had been forced by John Hyrcanus to
convert to the Hebrew religion in
the Jerusalem Temple.


As we know, it was only a few years after their "conversion?" that the Edomites had taken over
Jerusalem, the Temple, the region politics with their own Herod as king, and the
economy. The Edomites would have been right at home with Babylonian
Talmudic Phariseeism and may have already held that practice before they took
over Jerusalem. That religion had a
mystic branch of kabbalistic magic. The sacred name, YHWH, was a key to their
magic. As legend has it, the sacred name of a deity is so powerful that the
person who knows it then has the power to use that name to command the deity to
grant his wishes. Of the fifty four sacred names in the Jewish kabbalah, the
primary one is YHWH. For the Edomites who had taken over the Jerusalem Temple
and its religion, YHWH was a deity they had long worshipped as a part of their Pagan religion.
Paganism was actually started by Cain, himself, and it
stayed pretty much with the Cain race until spreading into Greece and Egypt and
Italy. That Pagan mother-goddess religion was prevalent throughout the entire
mid-east, each group having its own names for the deities. See my article on
Paganism for the full history of it. Click on
http://remnantradio.org/Archives/articles/PAGANISM.htm
. It is likely that the name
YHWH was used by Edom, along with Syria and Moab and perhaps some other close
neighbors.

The God of Abraham,
Isaac, and Israel never used any personal name to distinguish Him from
any peers because He had no peers. Therefore, no personal name was ever needed.
The only name He gave for Himself was "I am," which indicated that He is to be
identified with all existence. The Greek
Septuagint Old Testament of 285BC never used any sacred name for God, nor was
such ever mentioned by other ancient writers such as the Israelite historians,
Philo, and Josephus, or the later Eusebius, or even the Jewish Aristeas the
Exegete who wrote his commentary on the Greek Septuagint. The word did not appear
in any Old Testament text until the Masoretic Text of 1000AD!




From the viewpoint of modern theologians, it must first be understood that they
all still accept the Masoretic Hebrew text of 1,000 AD as the true ancient language
and Old Testament of our patriarchs. Since that Masoretic Text includes the four
letter tetragrammeton, YHWH, over 6,000 times, theologians are forced to
speculate that Moses must have put it in his Pentateuch. The Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 6, p. 1012, reads as follows: "In
terms of the biblical narrative, some suggest that Moses derived the name of
Yahweh from the Egyptians, while others think Yahweh was a Midianite deity
worshipped by the Kenite clan. Moses would have been introduced to this new
deity when he married the daughter of Jethro..."
Certainly, Moses would have
been acquainted with the Pagan religion of the Egyptians. But, even if the
Pentateuch was actually written by Moses (which is not known for sure) in the
15th C. BC, he could not have written it in the Hebrew language which was not
formed until the time of the Israelite captivities, from the 8th to 6th
centuries BC, when the captive Israelites merged their native Phoenician
language with the Aramaic of their captors. Now, I ask you, who wants to raise
his hand to claim that Moses adopted the name of a foreign deity as a substitute
for "God" or "Lord." If we set aside the closed-minded obduracy of modern
scholarship, we can see that Moses did not write any text in the modern Hebrew
language because it did not exist at that time, nor was there any Hebrew
alphabet or script. The oldest Old Testament text known is
the Greek Septuagint of 285 BC, and the word does not appear in it one single
time, or in any other ancient Israelite writing, with one
exception which I will mention now.




To place this information in proper context, recall that the northern kingdom of
Israelites, who had turned to other gods, had been purged from the Holy Land during
the 8th century BC, along with most of Judea. It would not be until 586 BC that
the last three unconquered cities of Judea, namely Jerusalem, Azekah, and
Lachish, would be defeated. Archaeologists have found eighteen ostraca (clay
sherds) in the city of Lachish from about 590 BC, most of them being letters
from subordinates to a man named Yaosh, the military governor of Lachish. It is
unknown if the writer was Israelite or Babylonian. I will quote one of the letters which
uses the name YHWH casually as is typical in other documents of that time, certainly not with
any reluctance to use a sacred name!


Ostracon III reads as follows: "Thy servant Hoshayahu hath sent to inform my
lord: May Yahweh bring you peaceful tidings! And now (you have sent a letter but
my lord did not) enlighten your servant concerning the letter which my lord sent
to your servant yesterday. For the heart of your servant has been sick since you
did send to your servant. And now when my lord said, 'You don't know how to read
a letter!' as Yahweh lives, no one has ever tied to read a letter to me, and
indeed any letter which may have come to me, I have certainly not read it . . .
at all.


And your servant has been
informed, saying, 'The commander of the army, Konyahu, son of Elnathan, has gone
down on his way to Egypt, and Hodawyahu, son of Ahiyahu, and his men have sent
me to obtain . . .'


And as for the letter of Tobyahu,
servant of the king, which came to Shallum, son of Yaddua, though the
instrumentality of the prophet, saying 'Take care!' your servant has sent it to
my lord."



You can note the casual use of the name Yahweh without any hesitance in
this military correspondence, certainly not with any hint that the name was so
sacred it shouldn't be spoken or written! Furthermore, many of the other personal names
contain yahu as parts of the names. At the time of this letter in 590 BC,
it would only be four more years before Lachish was conquered as a punishment
from God because His Israelite children had gone chasing after Pagan gods.
Yahweh was likely one of them! The
Pagan religion was being practiced in the Jerusalem Temple. Ezekiel had been
taken captive to Babylon in 598 BC, where he was shown a vision from God in 593
BC, about iniquities inside that Temple. Ezekiel 8:13, 14 - "(13)Then He said to me, you shall see still greater
transgressions which they are committing. (14) Then He led me to the vestibule
of the gate of the house of the Lord facing the north, and behold here were
women sitting there, weeping for Tammuz."
Tammuz was the dead
son for whom worshippers wept in that religion of lamentations.



Edomites were evicted from their land
in 312 BC by the Nabateans, then emigrating to a region of southern Judea which
was called Idumea. Then in 132 BC, the
leader of Jerusalem, John Hyrcanus, forced the troublesome Edomites to be
circumcised and convert to the Jerusalem temple religion of Talmudic Phariseeism.
Within a century, Judea was being run by an Edomite dictator, Herod the Great,
followed by his descendant Herods. The Edomites had become Judeans. When Jesus
called His sheep away from that corrupt temple religion, to be Christians, the
Edomites continued to be called Judeans, which is translated into English as
Jews.
That race of Edomites continues to be called Jews to this day.
They are the eternal enemies of Christ, and certainly NOT God's chosen ones.
But, I'm getting off track.


A Christian brother, who has honored the name of Yahweh, recently referred me to
a couple fragments of parchment, found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are Greek
texts that contain the name YHWH. While the general text is Greek, the
tetragrammeton is written in what modern scholars call "Paleo-Hebrew" letters,
implying that ancient Hebrews had an early script of their own. But, the letters
are actually Phoenician characters. Anyway, one of these parchment fragments is
dated from between 50 BC and 50 AD. The other is dated in the first century AD,
but it would have to be prior to 68 AD when the scrolls were buried. Finding the
tetragrammeton in Greek Septuagint text is nearly like finding the Holy Grail
for one who wants to believe God has a sacred name. These fragments have
supported the Yahwists, who can point to them and say, "See, this proves that
the tetragrammeton was used in the ORIGINAL Septuagint!" In their court, they
can proudly sit down and say, "The defense rests. Case closed." They have
subsequently decried the Greek Septuagint texts of the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus
manuscripts as faulty, assuming the tetragrammeton was deliberately removed. If
the Yahwists were right in drawing the conclusion that YHWH was in the original
Septuagint, I would personally apologize for my criticisms of it, and would
honor that sacred name for God with sincere enthusiasm. But, wait just a moment.
There is more to this story, and it supports an opposite conclusion.


Let's recall that the Edomites took over the Jerusalem Temple and the religion
more than a century prior to Christ. Let's also understand that the Dead Sea
Scrolls are collections of widely diverse writings of all types which are from
private libraries of people of Jerusalem; perhaps some of them are even from the
Temple. The scrolls were buried about 68 AD because the Edomites of Jerusalem
(the Jews) were under attack by Rome. They buried their precious writings
because such scribal products were very valuable - no printing presses! The
Edomites had taken over Jerusalem and had persecuted and oppressed the true
Israelites, pushing most of them out of the city to the fringes where many of
them suffered poverty. So, these scrolls are mostly, probably ALL, from Edomites
who had changed the Hebrew religion to their Talmudic Phariseeism. It appears
that they were altering Old Testament texts to read YHWH where the original
Septuagint had "God" or "Lord." So, the parchment fragments do NOT prove
the original Septuagint used the tetragrammeton.


My own personal conclusion is more firm than ever, that the Edomite Jews have
once again usurped something valuable of Israel, and have duped Jesus' sheep
into calling upon the name of their Pagan lord, Yahweh. I would plead with our
people to be very suspicious of anything Edomites offer us, especially their
so-called Hebrew translation of our Old Testament, their Masoretic Text, which
showcases the sacred name of THEIR lord.



If you are interested in a study of the many sacred names which the Jewish
mystics use, I would recommend a book, Gates of Light, by Rabbi
Joseph Gikatilla, who was born in 1248AD. The book was published in 1994 as one of the Bronfman Library of Jewish
Classics. Here are a few quotes from the book.

"Gates of Light is an encyclopaedia of God’s Names as well as a map which
reveals the connections between the words in the Torah and the Names of God.
"
(p. xvii)

"The ineffable Name YHVH represents God’s core and proves God’s unmediated
link between His core and the Jewish people.
" (p. xix)

"The one who knows which Name of God to petition for what he wishes is like
one who has the proverbial keys to the kingdom."
(p. xx)

"those who want their needs fulfilled by employing the Holy Names should try
with all their strength to comprehend the meaning of each Name of God as they
are recorded in the Torah, names such as EHYE, YH, YHVH, AdoNaY, EL, ELOH,
EloHIM, ShaDaY, TZVAOT. One should be aware that all the names mentioned in the
Torah are the keys for anything a person needs in the world."
(p.5)

"you need to know that there are fifty-four quadriliteral Names connected to
YHVH which add up to two hundred and sixteen letters. These fifty-four Names
contain the secret for drawing from the power of all that exists in the world;
they are like the soul of the two hundred and sixteen letters which are
contained in the verses [of Exodus 14:19-21]. Everything created is included in
these fifty-four Names, and these Names are the means for fulfilling the needs
of every creature through the intercession of AdoNaY."
(p. 15)

Well, that should give you some idea of what the sacred names mean to the
Edomite
Jews, even still today. It saddens me deeply that so many good Christians are turning away from
the Greek (which EVERYONE spoke at Jesus’ time in the entire Middle East because
Alexander had forced it) to the Aramaic or pseudo-Hebrew/Jewish names for Jesus
and for God. Aramaic is a language of the Afro-Asian language tree, not the
Indo-European tree which our ancestors used from their time in the garden of
Eden, on down through Sanskrit, Phoenician, Greek, and finally the Germanic
languages and English. The so-called "Hebrew" is a mongrel language that developed during the captivities
when the Israelites mixed their native Phoenician language with the Aramaic of
their captors. The Hebrew language never even had an alphabet until the Herodian
script was invented near the time of Christ, so the Old Testament could not have
been written in it. The Aramaic languages were native to the Cain race which migrated
into the Sumer region (Babylon) prior to Noah's descendants. Without understanding better, many of
our people are scorning the language of God’s race in the Bible, and
they are choosing the language of Christ’s enemies, the race of Satan from Cain
and from Edom. Our Bible NEVER promoted any such magic practices, nor is there
any hint that God has some kind of sacred name which has a power in itself. All
that nonsense is from the Jews, and they must be laughing to watch good
Christians venerating their blasphemous "names." We have followed the
arch-deceivers into their pit again!


As for the name of God, our Indo-European language tradition has an impressive
and consistent history. In Sanskrit, the name was dyus; in Phoenician &
ancient Briton it was dias; in Greek it was
theos and zeus; in Latin it was deus. The word
YHWH
never entered our Bible until nearly 1,000 AD when the Masoretic
Text (MT) in Hebrew was completed and presented to the Roman Catholic church as
the authentic original language and text of the Old Testament. The eastern half
of Christendom at that time rejected the text as fraudulent and retained the
Greek Septuagint of 285 BC, which they still use today.

The name, "Jesus," is the proper English pronunciation for His true Greek
name of IESU. The Aramaic pronunciation for IESU is "yahshua." That
Aramaic name is then
translated into English as Joshua. It was a IESU who led the Israelites across
the Jordan into Canaan, their promised land. And it will be IESU again who leads
God's people from this kingdom of World into the Kingdom of Heaven.
To use the Aramaic pronunciation, namely "yahshua," is a mistake. Jesus, his
disciples, and everyone else spoke Greek. Some of the Cain races who were their
neighbors retained their native language of Aramaic along with the common
language of Greek. Certainly,
Jesus and his friends knew some Aramaic (He even spoke a phrase of it from the
cross, Eli, Eli, lamasabachthani, where "El"was a generic
name for God. But Greek was their first language because
it had naturally evolved from the Phoenician language of their ancestors. Those who claim
that Jesus' first language was Aramaic are simply wrong. Greek is the language of
our people.

Ultimately, the case for or against the sacred name YHWH is just
circumstantial. There is little material evidence to support the Edomite claim that
the name was even known to any patriarch or existed in any ancient scripture.
There was no Hebrew language until after the captivities and there was no Hebrew
alphabet until the Herodian Script which was invented just before Jesus arrived.
There was no Hebrew Old Testament text until 1,000 AD. The sacred name idea was
unknown to Josephus and Philo. The name YHWH was never used in the Greek
Septuagint of 285 BC. Perhaps the most convincing argument against the sacred
name usage is that it is part of the religion of a race of people who are
notorious liars, as Jesus accused them in John 8:44. Also, there is no place in
the entire Bible that God ever suggested a personal name for Himself, and
certainly there is no favorable support of a religion of magic for the sake of
attaining worldly desires. Lastly, the name YHWH is from the Afro-Asian language
family, not from the Indo-European (Aryan) family which is the language lineage
of Adam, Noah, Abraam, and Israel. I would welcome information from anyone that
might suggest ANY circumstantial evidence in support of the sacred name YHWH as
authentic for pre-captivities Israelites.

So, the conclusion of this case is left to each person as an individual. If
you feel attracted to call upon the Pagan god of the Edomites, you may have found
your proper place in the eternal program. If you feel that the highest form of
religion is to seek worldly wealth and to use techniques and rituals, then you
might even feel drawn to the magical Kabbalah. But, if you feel that your
spiritual relationship with God is personal and intimate and something beyond
rituals, worldly concerns and magic names, then you will probably feel more attracted to
Jesus as your Lord. Jesus said, in the last chapter of His revelation to John,
"Let the one who is unrighteous still be unrighteous, and the filthy one be
filthy still, and let the righteous one do righteousness still, and let the holy
one be holy still."
It is not my wish to convince anyone of anything; I
merely present some information for your consideration. I offer nothing for sale
and have no vested interest in whatever God might choose to do with my work. As
I have been freely given, so do I give freely. You may consider what I say, or
not. The matter is between you and your God, whichever one of them you choose.


The following is a letter which I
wrote to a yahwist with whom I have corresponded over a period of months. He did
present to me all of the arguments which support the yahwist claim of
sacred-name. But those arguments were shallow and easily refuted by historical
known facts. Somewhat edited, here is the jist of that
letter.





Dear . . . . . . . . ,



I wish to thank you for discussing the yahweh issue with me this past year. I
have learned a lot. It has been my only real opportunity to examine the thinking
of a yahwist, and has been something of an eye-opener for me. I’ve known only a
few yahwists before and found that none of them were willing to defend their
religion with evidence. You, at least, did present to me the evidence that you
had, all of which was easily refuted. I showed you that from ancient records
there is evidence that the tetragrammeton was the name of one of the Edomite
gods but there is no evidence that Israel ever shared that same god. From the
Bible we can understand that they certainly would not share the same god.
We know that Esau married into the Cain race and adopted their Pagan religion
which had actually originated with Cain himself, in the worship of his father,
Satan, called at that time Enlil, but in later centuries Bel. For
a study of Paganism, see
http://remnantradio.org/Archives/articles/PAGANISM.htm
.We know from the
Bible that most all of the neighboring races around Israel worshipped Bel, aka
Baal. But, as one studies the many names of deities of those peoples, it gets
very confusing. The names of the deities varied a lot, each nation selecting its
own names, even though the basic religion was fairly consistent. Anyway, I am
simply saying that the Edomites were one of the nations/families who worshipped
Satan through that Pagan religion. Given
that fact, we then learn from Egyptian records
that one of the Edomite deities was named YHWH. On their list of deities, the
Egyptians made no mention that Israelites (who were a large presence there at
that time of 1400 BC) honored the same god. Further, there is no evidence that
Israel ever used the YHWH name. The name next shows up in the
Dead Sea Scrolls which were buried by
Edomites
around 70 AD. Still no indication that the Greek speaking
Israelites ever used the word. Instead, from the Greek Septuagint of 285 BC, we
find no hint of any personal name ever being claimed by the Almighty God. Next,
about 1,000 AD, the Masoretic "Hebrew" text
of the O.T. appears, having been created by the Edomite Jews, the name YHWH
appears frequently. Well, Roman Catholicism accepted that spurious Jewish text
as authentic and as the original language of the ancient Bible people. The Eastern
half of Christendom did not then, nor have they ever accepted it as anything
but a fraud. What happened is understandable when we realize the Roman church
was influenced by Jews from the time of Constantine (325 AD) and many popes were
admitted Jews. So, they accepted the fraud. Next, in the middle ages, we find
the Kabbalistic branch of the Jew’s Talmudic
religion using the name as their chief of fifty four deity names. Still, no
evidence that Israelites or Christians ever used it.


When the Protestant Reformers corrected some of the egregious and most
blasphemous teachings of the Paganist Roman church, they did not address the
text-language problem of the scriptures because they were primarily interested
in getting Bibles printed for the common people. Sadly, the masoretic text was
used for the O.T., and still is the basis of English versions which are all
printed by Jewish publishing companies. One has to search for a copy of the
Bible which Jesus used, namely the Greek Septuagint (but Brenton's translation
is available from CBD, "www.christianbook.com").


If you really care about researching that yahweh name, it would be well worth
the purchase of a book titled GATES OF LIGHT, subtitled "Sha’are Orah"
by Rabbi Joseph Gikatilla who was born 1248 AD, translated into English by Avi
Weinstein. The book "is an encyclopaedia of God’s Names as well as a map
which reveals the connections between the words in the Torah and the Names of
God." (p. xvii).
He says on p. xx: "The one who knows which Name of God
to petition for what he wishes is like one who has the proverbial keys to the
kingdom."
He goes on to say on page 5: "...those who want their needs
fulfilled by employing the Holy Names should try with all their strength to
comprehend the meaning of each Name of God as they are recorded in the Torah,
names such as EHYE, YH, YHVH, ADoNaY, EL, ELOH, EloHIM, ShaDaY, TZVAOT. One
should be aware that all the names mentioned in the Torah are the keys for
anything a person needs in the world."
On page 15, he says regarding ADoNaY:
"Therefore the name instills authority and it is the rightful Name of the
Master of the earth through the power invested by the Name YHVH which dwells
therein."
Most Christians know whom Jesus said was the lord of this world!
It appears that Rabbi Gikatilla also knew.


So, where are we now? Some individuals have adopted the YHWH name from the
Edomite Jew's O.T. as their sacred name for God. The ancient evidence points to
that name being a god of the Paganist Edomites, a name which they brought to
Jerusalem when they took over the temple during the Herodian period prior to
Christ. Yahweh is, according to ALL evidence, a god of the Edomites, and in
their Pagan religion, that would be Satan himself.

Christians like myself often think
that ancients who worshiped Pagan gods must have been stupid or simple, but we
are wrong to think that way. Those who worshipped Cain’s god knew the reality of
his presence in their lives, and they knew his power. He who reigns over the
kingdom of World is a powerful god indeed as he negatively serves the Almighty’s
divine plan of the ages. Soon he is to be overthrown, and then no more yahweh!
Jesus will lead us into the kingdom of Heaven and we shall be free from the
influence of the great deceiver, that archetype liar of whom Jesus spoke in John
8:44.

From a servant of Jesus,

Roger Hathaway, January 2006




ADDENDUM:

(1) The May/June 2001 issue of
BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY REVIEW
has an article by Ephraim Stern, titled PAGAN
YAHWISM, The Folk Religion of Ancient Israel
, beginning on page 21. The
article begins with "The Bible imagines the religion of ancient Israel as
purely monotheistic. And doubtless there were Israelites, particularly those
associated with the Jerusalem Temple, who were strict monotheists. But the
archaeological evidence (and the Bible, too, if you read it closely enough)
suggests that the monotheism of many Israelites was far from pure. . . . Some
Israelites believed that Yahweh had a female consort. And many Israelites
invoked the divinity with the help of images, particularly figurines. I call
this Israelite religion pagan Yahwism.



The archaeological evidence we will look at comes mostly from Judah in what is
known in archaeological terms as the Assyrian period, the span from 721 B.C.E.,
when the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel, until 586 B.C.E.,
when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and brought an
end to the Davidic dynasty in Judah."



The lengthy article contains lots of information regarding the digs and their
finds, including one picture of three figurines which are upper-half bodies of
females who are holding up their large breasts with their hands. These female
figures represent the consorts of Yahweh. It was common among Israel's neighbors
that each deity had his own consort, all of which were known by the common names
of "Asherah" or "Ashtoreth" or "Astarte." The figurines in the picture in this
article are Asherahs of Yahweh.

(2) The November/December 2001 issue
of BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY REVIEW has a response to the above article by
another archaeologist, who says, regarding some inscriptions that were found,
"The main texts, the blessings 'to Yahweh and his Asherah' are in fact
the standard format for the opening of a business letter.





It appears pretty clear that all evidence confirms that the personal name YHWH
was borrowed from Israel's pagan neighbors during the captivities by Israelites
who also borrowed MUCH from the Chaldean Mystery Schools before they returned to
Jerusalem with a religion properly called, Babylonian Talmudic Phariseeism.
Egyptians records connect YHWH with some of Israel's neighbors but not with
Israel. One need only read the Old Testament to understand that Israel's God was
a jealous God whom other nations recognized as Israel's God and not theirs. What
scholar wants to speculate that Israel's God was adopted by other nations who
were enemies of Israel? I would suggest that those individuals who feel
compelled to worship that pagan deity might as well include his Asherah
alongside him on their altars. But, for those who care what God's truth really
is, let them present some evidence that YHWH was really a proper name for the
God of Israel in pre-exile times. Their main evidence is quite limited to the
Masoretic fraud in the Edomites' Old Testament of tenth century A.D.


And for those who think the Hebrew language was the language of our patriarchs,
where is any evidence to support that? It doesn't exist. Consider this. The
Edomite Jew Masoretes spent three hundred years preparing the Masoretic Text
(MT), supposedly just separating the words and adding diacritical marks. Has any
scholar asked what manuscript the Masoretes worked from to create their MT? It
is assumed that they must have worked from an ancient Hebrew manuscript. BUT,
the square letter Herodian Script was only invented during the century before
Jesus was born. And there is NO evidence that any Old Testament existed in the
Hebrew language or Herodian Script at the time of Jesus. Jewish scholars like
Philo and Aristeas the Exegete used the Greek Septuagint exclusively for their
exegetical work, assuming that the secrets to understanding God's communique
were in the Greek words and nuances. What's more, they made no reference to, nor
hint of, any Hebrew text which might be more authentic. As a matter of fact, NO
ancient writer hinted that any such text existed.


It is puzzling beyond belief that there are individuals, who pretend sincere
faith, who care not about historical facts. Rather, they adopt beliefs for their
religions in spite of strong conflicts against them. Just as with much of
mainstream Christianity, religion trumps facts.











http://www.remnantradio.org/Archives/articles/sacred_name.htm
avatar
ada

Posts : 291
Age : 53
Gender : Male Join date : 2011-03-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Name debate

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum