Waters 'Above' the Firmament

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Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:33 pm

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.


So....theres water above the heavens?

So...our entire universe is surrounded by a layer of water? scratch

COOL!

Ice? Fluid? Crystal?

What say you?


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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:34 am

Im pretty sure the water above the firmament was what casued the deluge/flood.

Genesis 2:5-6 "For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

The bible never mentions the mist again, never says it went away before the flood, never says it didnt.

Then after the firmament broke...it rained for 40days and 40 nights(which to Noah must have been SOMTHING huh!?) Which was the first time it ever rained.

“By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.” Hebrews 11:7

Thus, completely draining the water above the firmament.

So, no no more Giant fish bowl to my knowledge.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:28 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Im pretty sure the water above the firmament was what casued the deluge/flood.

Genesis 2:5-6 "For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

I'm pretty sure it wasnt Rob. You've just shown the source of the water that produced the rain. It was from the mist that went up from the earth.

So....the rain comes from the water BELOW the firmament (on the Earth) not from the water ABOVE.

(As we scientificaly know it does to this day in fact).


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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:58 pm

Thats not how i see it,

I truly beleive a mist would not be raised into the sky as rain, but in stead rise from the ground and permiate the air...hover the ground. almost like living in a giant sweatlodge... never comming from the sky, becasue God was waiting untill the flood, to release the water in the firmament.

I truly beleive thigns were allot different in the wolrd before and them after the flood.

but hey maybe thats just me...

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:11 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Thats not how i see it,

I truly beleive a mist would not be raised into the sky as rain, but in stead rise from the ground and permiate the air...hover the ground. almost like living in a giant sweatlodge... never comming from the sky, becasue God was waiting untill the flood, to release the water in the firmament.

Huh? Contradictamundo. rabbit

Either way the source of the water is BELOW the firmament. It comes from water on the Earth.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
I truly beleive thigns were allot different in the wolrd before and them after the flood.

but hey maybe thats just me...

Well, I guess it depends on how much stuff you wanna make up thats not in the bible.

I truly believe the things that are written in scripture. It's God's truth. If He says there is water above the firmament..that is...beyond the furthest star in the universe..then I believe Him.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:26 pm

hahah

ok...WHERE in Genesis, does it say that the mist came up from the sea?

it doesnt.

It says earth.

So who reading into what?

"For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. "

The nice little picture you showed me, is NOW, not then.

That portion of scripture i JUST posted says it had not rained yet. NO RAIN. What you show me in the picture is RAIN. But the bible says there was NO RAIN. NO rain!. In stead of rain, there was a mist. That went up FROM THE EARTH. Not the sea. The earth.

Gen 1:10 "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. "

The MIST came up from the EARTH. if it was different it would have said so. It was not. If you are saying the mist came up from the ocean then THAT my freind is adding words to what is written in scripture.

The mist, was not rain, becasue there had yet to BE rain. The FIRST rain fall, was the depletion of the water above the heavens.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:48 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:hahah

ok...WHERE in Genesis, does it say that the mist came up from the sea?

it doesnt.

It says earth.

So who reading into what?

"For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. "

The nice little picture you showed me, is NOW, not then.

That portion of scripture i JUST posted says it had not rained yet. NO RAIN. What you show me in the picture is RAIN. But the bible says there was NO RAIN. NO rain!. In stead of rain, there was a mist. That went up FROM THE EARTH. Not the sea. The earth.

Gen 1:10 "And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. "

The MIST came up from the EARTH. if it was different it would have said so. It was not. If you are saying the mist came up from the ocean then THAT my freind is adding words to what is written in scripture.

The mist, was not rain, becasue there had yet to BE rain. The FIRST rain fall, was the depletion of the water above the heavens.

Rob...simple questions.

1) Was there water above the firmament BEFORE a mist rose up to water the land?

2) Is the Earth above the firmament or below the firmament?

3) Let's say for arguments sake that the mist rose from the Earth and not from the water on the Earth (its irrelevant really, however the obvious reading of the scripture is Moses saying that it hadn't rained yet BUT now a mist rose up and fell on the Earth (rain),,, but anyway..lets go with your absolutely literal reading of scripture..I'm happy with that.).....once it rose into the air....was it then situated IN the firmament or ABOVE the firmament?

4) Where do you get the idea that "The FIRST rain fall, was the depletion of the water above the heavens". Did the rain come from a gazillion miles away..past the last visible star in the universe, through space, to fall onto the Earth?

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:57 am

I never had a look at the commentaries on this before. I fully expected to see illogical workarounds (like what has to be done regarding a stationary Earth)...and we do see that in Gill's notes....but lookie here:

Gill's Notes:

And divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; the lower part of it, the atmosphere above, which are the clouds full of water, from whence rain descends upon the earth; and which divided between them and those that were left on the earth, and so under it, not yet gathered into one place; as it now does between the clouds of heaven and the waters of the sea. Though Mr. Gregory (a) is of opinion, that an abyss of waters above the most supreme orb is here meant; or a great deep between the heavens and the heaven of heavens, where, as in storehouses, the depth is laid up; and God has his treasures of snow, hail, and rain, and from whence he brought out the waters which drowned the world at the universal deluge. Others suppose the waters above to be the crystalline heaven, which for its clearness resembles water; and which Milton (b) calls the "crystalline ocean",

Isn't that cool? "crystalline ocean"?

Thats exactly as I see it and the only logical way to read the text seeing as it says the water is ABOVE the firmament. It's like a crystal layer surrounding the spherical celestial universe.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:07 am

Hmmm Odd...

I just posted something and now it is gone.

anyway, the jist of it was:

Im done arguing. Its fruitless. and i dont do it anylonger. I would rather be glorifying God, or lifting my brothers and sisters up, adn loving them, and arguments do nothing but tear down, and build up pride and contention.

Please forgive me for not answering your questions, but that would lead to furthering the argument, of which i no longer do.

I have no more intention of proving myself wrong or right, or you wrong or right, it just in the grand scheme of things does not matter.

So Jesus bless you my brother. And keep on trucking.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:11 am

I thought we were having a nice little debate Rob.

If we kept going you might find out something new and interesting about stars and reflections and NASA and stuff but....

......never mind then?

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:40 am

Hahah Hmm...if you put it that way, then maybe Sir, maybe...as of right now i shall put it on hold though...If you dont mind...maybe in the near future ill come back to it and tell you how wrong you are...


But in the meentime...I need to NOT argue. Not even debate. Im not leaving though...i gots lots of stuff to post...im excited

In the mean time...go ahead and post some of the Nasa/stars/reflections stuff...im interested in reading it

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:45 am



First I want you to admit that there is a possibility that there is water above the firmament.

I want to hear you SAY IT ROB!! Laughing

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:55 am

NO!!!

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:15 am

Look, there IS a possiblitiy, however, it comes down to an understanding issue. I under stand that God can do what he wants to, and you understand science. So you apply science to the scripture and scripture to science. Not a Bad Thing! However, It is my personal beleif that science the way it is is not only faulty, but was most likely COMPLETELY different PRE flood. You continue to say that The mist would have had to RISE and then water.

I simply said that it would have no need to become a cloud of persperation, becasue it comes up from the ground, to water the ground, i think of it as Gods own irragation system. I also dont consider the firmament to be outer space. I consider the firmament to by the sky. Below the sky is the ground(earth) above the sky was the water. And then ABOVE THAT is the rest of the universe stars etc...

It is my understanding(this is also the best way that i could explain my nderstanding) that there was an extra lining of water around(above) the earth, yet still below the stars, planets etc...It was a canopy of sorts to my imagination... and when The world got WAAAY to evil he flooded them out, he flushed the giant toilet, and the flood(water above the sky, but below outer space) came and took them all away. That was the first fall of water from the sky, there neednt be rainfall, or water from the sky because of Gods irrigation system(the water the just CAME up from the ground...God can do what he wants DARNIT! Smile )
Possibly God had alterior intentions for the water above his creation...maybe he was going to create sky dolphins!?(...ok that part is a taking it a bit to far...) But then he had to just empty it out...

However my understadning of something doesnt prove it right. (and maybe God gifted me with an over active imagination)

However, i know myself, and if it kept going...i would curse you in my heart and mind for being so Mulish(yet it would probably be me that would be acting like the Mule)

hahah so to avoid ALL that, I was dropping it...im still dropping it. But yes it is a possibility.

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:55 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Look, there IS a possiblitiy, however, it comes down to an understanding issue. I under stand that God can do what he wants to, and you understand science. So you apply science to the scripture and scripture to science. Not a Bad Thing! However, It is my personal beleif that science the way it is is not only faulty, but was most likely COMPLETELY different PRE flood.
I dont understand. FALSE science is faulty. Science that involves assumptions and theoretics. But whats wrong with true science?

Science was completely different pre-flood?? You mean the laws of nature?

What...the...triple hockey sticks are you talkin' bout Willis?

KingdomSeeker wrote:You continue to say that The mist would have had to RISE and then water.

I simply said that it would have no need to become a cloud of persperation, becasue it comes up from the ground, to water the ground, i think of it as Gods own irragation system.
I'mm really not concerned what happened with the mist buddy. My only point is that the mist comes up from below the firmament and not from the waters above.

KingdomSeeker wrote:I also dont consider the firmament to be outer space. I consider the firmament to by the sky. Below the sky is the ground(earth) above the sky was the water. And then ABOVE THAT is the rest of the universe stars etc...
Ok but thats simply unbiblical. God tells us the structure of the universe and the stars are situated IN THE FIRMAMENT.

The firmament IS Heaven and the Heaven IS the firmament. Look:

(Genesis 1:8) And God called the firmament Heaven.

The sun and moon and stars are IN THE FIRMAMENT which is Heaven:

(Genesis 1:14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

(Genesis 1:15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

(Genesis 1:16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

(Genesis 1:17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Even God's temporary throne room...in the 3rd Heaven, is STILL in the firmament..but above and beyond the last star.

(2 Corinthians 12:2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And beyond that..as stated in scripture, is the Waters ABOVE the firmament. The firmament DIVIDES the waters from the waters. Thats it. God laid it all out nice and neatly for us. No need to make up for ourselves what the structure of the universe is. Everything written by God in His Word is true. He never lies.

KingdomSeeker wrote:It is my understanding(this is also the best way that i could explain my nderstanding) that there was an extra lining of water around(above) the earth, yet still below the stars, planets etc...
As I've shown...that cannot be, as the extra lining of water that God made was ABOVE the firmament...beyond the stars.

There is water up there dude. I dont know what form its in but its still up there.

Admit it. ADMIT TO THE PRECIOUS CELESTIAL FLUIDS!!! cyclops

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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by KingdomSeeker on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:45 pm

ADMIT TO THE PRECIOUS CELESTIAL FLUIDS!!! .

HAHA!! ...why does that sound wrong to me.


Ok, I admit to the possiblity that your interperatation of scripture could lead one to believe that there is a water type substance(whether fluid, or solid/crystal or gas) beyond our solar system.

According to the scripture it says God stuck stars into the sky.(firmament)


Does the scripture call planets, planets? Back then they called everything "stars" ...

My point is saying tht understadning back then might not be understadning now.

But TO end it...hahah. I see your point and would LOVE to hear(read) more about it.


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Re: Waters 'Above' the Firmament

Post by Strangelove on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:16 am

KingdomSeeker wrote:Ok, I admit to the possiblity that your interperatation of scripture could lead one to believe that there is a water type substance(whether fluid, or solid/crystal or gas) beyond our solar system.
You still dont get it mate. The water is beyond THE ENTIRE FIRMAMENT. Not just our solar system Earth system. It's above the whole heavens! Thats what God says. Do you believe Him?

KingdomSeeker wrote:
According to the scripture it says God stuck stars into the sky.(firmament)

Does the scripture call planets, planets? Back then they called everything "stars" ...
Correct...man calls them planets. God calls them 'lights' that give light specifically for the Earth.

KingdomSeeker wrote:
My point is saying tht understadning back then might not be understadning now.
Huh? Whats with the confusion? THE BIBLE is understanding then and now! Whats changed?

KingdomSeeker wrote:
But TO end it...hahah. I see your point and would LOVE to hear(read) more about it.
So you admit to the precious crystalline ocean fluids above the firmament then?


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