Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

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Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by northwye on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:28 am

Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Bernard Pyron

Popular
end time prophecy almost always puts the fulfillment in the vague
future, most often sometime during the tribulation. Even the prophecy of
Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3 about the falling away is placed in the
tribulation by popular prophecy writers. Daniel 11 is a different kind
of Bible prophecy. It states fairly explicit scenarios of action by two
figures in conflict with one another, the King of the North and the King
of the South. It starts in Daniel 11: 4, "And when he shall stand up,
his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds
of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which
he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside
those."

The Greek military leader, Alexander, died and his
empire was divided into four major portions to four of his generals in
about 301 BC: (1) Cassander ruled over Greece, (2) Lysimachus ruled in
Asia Minor, (3) Seleucus I Nicator ruled in Babylon and Persia, and (4)
Ptolemy I Soter ruled over the Holy Land and Egypt. Cassander and
Lysimachus dropped out of the picture and two kings were left, the
Seleucus empire in Babylon and Persia and the Ptolemy empire in Egypt
and Palestine. Daniel 11: 4 fits with the division of Alexander's
empire. This does not necessarily mean that the entire prophecy of
Daniel 11 as given to Daniel by the angel in Daniel 10: 8-21 is just a
description of the events in history involving the struggle between the
Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires.

The angel says to Daniel in
Daniel 10: 21, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the
scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these
things, but Michael your prince." Why would an angel from God be sent to
Daniel the prophet to tell him the forthcoming history of the battles
between the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires? This history does not reach
the time when Christ was born during the Roman empire. There is likely
more to Daniel 11 than the story of the history of battles between the
house of Ptolemy and the house of Seleucus. The "scripture of truth" is
not likely to be limited to political and military struggles between two
dynasties.

Starting in Daniel 11: 5 the text describes a series
of actions in the struggle between the King of the North and the King
of the South. To try to keep this from being very long, lets jump ahead
to Daniel 11: 24, and began there. The modern division of the North from
the South internationally began in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell.
After that, the main division was no longer between the West and the
East, but between the industrial North controlled in large part by big
bankers and the less developed nations of the South, where the many
Islamic nations are important, though the South now includes some
nations of South America (Venezuela under Hugo Chavez is one example)
and perhaps China. Though China is not necessarily in the geographic
South, it is allied with the developing nations of the South, and would
boost their political, monetary, economic and military powers
tremendously.

"...he shall do that which his fathers have not
done, nor his father's fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey,
and spoil, and riches....." (Daniel 11:24) "He" is the King of the
North. The modern scenario that fits this part of the prophecy in Daniel
11: 24 is this: George H.W. Bush defeated the forces of Saddam Hussein
in the first Gulf War, but did not bring about a regime change. His son
George W. Bush in Gulf War Two invaded Iraq and took over the country,
ousting Saddam Hussein. He did that which his father did not do. There
is a reference in the text to spoil and riches. I will get to that
later. "And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king
of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not
stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. 26. Yea, they that
feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall
overflow: and many shall fall down slain." Daniel 11: 25-26

Again
"he" in verse 25 is the King of the North. In the period of 2001 to
2008 George W. Bush held the office of the King of the North. He began
his war against Iraq in March of 2003 and it is not totally finished
even in 2011. With a great army George Bush Junior stirred up his and
the power of the U.S. and its courage to attack Saddam's forces. Bush
and his generals forecasted devices against Saddam in saying they were
going to war because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction - which were
not found. Bush bragged that they would mount an attack of "shock and
awe" against the third world army of Saddam. When Bush's "lets roll"
army got near Baghdad, the agents of the King of the North bribed the
commanders of the Republican Guard not to fight. Later these bribed
generals are said to have been re-located to the U.S. and given more
rewards. These Republican Guard generals fed at the portion of Saddam's
meat but destroyed Saddam. They caused their troops not to fight and as a
result Saddam was defeated and hanged.

"Then shall he return
into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy
covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land." Daniel
11: 28 George W. Bush, the oil man, was set up to own an oil company
and later to become President by his carpetbagger father who went to
Texas to exploit the Texans. Bush Junior went into Iraq for oil and
returned with control of Saddam's oil and his buddies Halliburton and
Dick Cheney made millions if not billions from that war. Who knows if
Bush didn't get some of the money they made off the war? Bush made great
riches for a few from the war.

The "King of the North," or the
ruling elite which is now in charge of the nations of the north, is
empowered by usury. Usury is forbidden to be used by God's people in
Exodus 22: 25, Leviticus 25: 36-37, Deuteronomy 23: 19-20, Ezekiel 18:
8, 13,, 17, Ezekiel 22: 12 and a few other texts. Usury is making money
from charging interest on loans. The big usury bankers are parasites,
who are allied with the U.S. and other governments, so that they feed
money into the economy through debt, and then steal the money of the
people from interest on these debts. The King of the North as a more
general metaphor is about the big bankers of the North creating riches
for themselves by usury. Banking and usury started in earnest in ancient
historical Babylon, in the city of Babylon and in nearby cities. Guess
what modern nation the old city of Babylon is in?

"In the
1920's, Sir Leonard Woolley, excavating the Mesopotamian city of Ur, the
fabled birthplace of Abraham, found himself standing in the remains of
what must have been an upper middle class neighborhood near the center
of the ancient city....Professor Marc Van De Mieroop of Columbia
University has used Woolley's careful excavation notes to match the
dozens of excavated clay tablets to the homes where they were found.
From these, he has been able to identify what must have been a very
early "Wall Street..

.Many of the clay tablets found were records
of loans for which the lenders collected interest, or usury. The
article on usury in ancient historical Babylon goes on to say that: "It
is difficult to escape the conclusion that, while the first loan
contracts and the legal system that enforced them may have been good for
the Mesopotamian economy, they made life miserable for the working man
and woman."

"...his heart shall be against the holy covenant."
This is part of Daniel 11: 28, really another prophecy. George W Bush,
who was helped to become president by many conservative Christians and
was supported by them, thinking he was also a Christian, were forsaken
when Bush claimed that Christians and Muslims "worship the same God."
So, his "heart" was against the "holy covenant." Obama is doing much the
same thing.

In Daniel 11: 25 the King of the North shall stir
up his power and courage against the King of the South with a great
army. Many who have been taught by the theology that took over most of
evangelical Christianity that scripture must be interpreted literally,
won't like this idea that prophecy can have more than one application,
not only in time but also in geographical locations. The somewhat
detailed scenarios of Daniel 11 may have repeated in history, though I
don't know the details of history well enough to show how the scenarios
have worked for different periods of time and in different locations of
the world. There has been a North versus South struggle in many nations.
North versus South Korea is just one example, where the South has so
far come out best. In the British islands, the North, as Scotland, was
in a political and military struggle with the South as England in times
past, and the South won out to put Scotland under its rule.

In
the United States there was a political conflict between the more
industrial North with its elite which was more of a money power against
the more agrarian South which wanted to maintain the older system in
which the states had greater sovereignty than the North wanted. The
conflict between the Northern elite led by the former Calvinist Puritans
of New England who had become a money power elite (usury) and the
agrarian planter and slave holding elite of the South resulted in the
1861-65 war. The King of the North is said to stir up his power and
courage against the king of the South with a great army. Remember, soon
after Lincoln was elected, the War of Northern Aggression began, the
King of the North against the King of the South in 1861-65. Verse 29
says the King of the North shall return and come toward the south. In
the scenario of the War of Federal Aggression, the King of the North
kept coming back again after the South defeated his army in battle on
several occasions. The more impulsive South apparently believed that if
they could win a few battles that they could win their independence. But
the North, allied with the federal government under the Radical
Republicans, was systematic and deliberate and would not give up its
drive to rule over the states of the South.

Starting with Daniel
11: 33, toward the end of this long chapter, there are statements that
are somewhat different than the scripts previously that describe the
actions of the Kings of the North and South against one another. Verse
33 is a prophecy which says that they who understand among the people
will instruct many. But "they" will fall by the sword, by captivity and
spoil.
"They" must be those who are instructed, and the possible
implication is that "they" are killed or put in prison after they are
instructed, and perhaps because they were instructed.

Then verse
36 tells us that the "King," the King of the North,will do according to
his will and exalt himself, and will prosper until the indignation is
accomplished. This describes the willful King of the North.

"But in
his estate shall he honor the God of forces, and a god whom his fathers
knew not..." (Daniel 11: 38). The God of forces is an impersonal "god,"
not the personal God of scripture.

Then in verse 41 the chapter
appears to return to the more usual action scripts involving the two
Kings. "He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries
shall be overthrown...(Daniel 11: 41) Could this be World War III,
centered in the Middle East, a war in which the King of the North is an
aggressor? Who will hold the office of the King of the North when this
occurs?

Finally, in verse 45, the chapter ends by saying "...yet
shall he come to his end, and non shall help him." Those who want to
reduce this chapter of scenarios given to Daniel by the angel to nothing
but the story of the struggles between the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid
empires, will claim that verse 45 was fulfilled and exhausted as
prophecy with the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes by disease in 164 BC,
who was the King of the North, or of Syria opposed to Egypt of the
South. But the literalist crowd tends to claim that prophecy can have
only one specific fulfillment, not more than one fulfillment. The test
of whether Daniel 11 is exhausted in the battle between the Kings of the
Seleucid empire of the North and the Kings of the Ptolemaic empire of
the South is the extent to which these somewhat detailed scenarios fit
episodes of later history - and what many of the verses from 33 to 41
mean and their possible applications,



Last edited by northwye on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : word left out)

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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:29 am

thats really interesting north!
i belive Gog ofMagog are the Khazars....they've covered the whole earth, and most assuredly have taken Palestine.
they burst out of the caucausus c 700 ad and covered the whole earth. that's to the north of Palestine.
google Megallith Bush Scroll: Temple Mount.
notice the rabbis call him Chief prince Mesach and Tubal Leader of the West.
they hate the Lords ppl too.
and since bushy is one, that could make sense.
lemme know if that fits in your studies.
who knows...these guys are deceiving at every turn.
i just watch em now.
like cockroaches.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by ada on Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:09 pm

The Orthodox Nationalist: Khazaria

July 28, 2011 ·




Matt Johnson discusses:


  • The Khazar empire;
  • Khazaria and the Talmud;
  • Khazar economy based on slavery;
  • The reason the Khazars converted to Talmudism;
  • The reasons for the fall of Khazaria;
  • Khazaria and Anti-Christ.
http://reasonradionetwork.com/20110728/the-orthodox-nationalist-khazaria
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:24 pm

downloading now ada.

thanks.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by Strangelove on Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:41 pm

Lolz...irony alert...khazarians are like....the opposite of semites.Razz

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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:59 pm

ada wrote:The Orthodox Nationalist: Khazaria

July 28, 2011 ·




Matt Johnson discusses:


  • The Khazar empire;
  • Khazaria and the Talmud;
  • Khazar economy based on slavery;
  • The reason the Khazars converted to Talmudism;
  • The reasons for the fall of Khazaria;
  • Khazaria and Anti-Christ.

[url=http://reasonradionetwork.com/20110728/the-orthodox-nationalist-khazaria
http://reasonradionetwork.com/20110728/the-orthodox-nationalist-khazaria[/quote[/url]]

PURE GOLD ADA.

EXCELLENT EXCELLENT FIND.

thanks for bringing it.

love zone.

(going to pass it along)
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:02 pm

Strangelove wrote:Lolz...irony alert...khazarians are like....the opposite of semites.Razz
its so bizarre who'd believe it?
except Our Lord said:
i know the blasphemy of those who SAY THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT.


that guy from ada's broadcast said the byzantines and the muslims ALWAYS thought the antichrist would be Khazars. and he says they named them GOG OF MAGOG
I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!

...talks about them as the slavers.
which ties in to that Tony Martin Video.
have you guys watched it yet? i posted it here somewhere.
THANKS ADA!
8 years of work....i did it all the hard way. but to find it all coming tgether now is so edifying. it was this from Jesus that made me keep wondering:

i know the blasphemy of those who SAY THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT.

this is by an EO guy...i'mma pass it on it scotty at cc...he hates dispy stuff, is amil and knows about zionism.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by ada on Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:32 pm

Yea zone i knew you would like it.
But still i have doubts.
The rabbit hole goes much deeper and is much older.
It all starts with the apostasy of king solomon
and the kabbalah/zohar and the many daemons/jiins...
And that does not fit for the khazarians(800ad) what not means
that there is no connection to the jews.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:17 pm

ada wrote:Yea zone i knew you would like it.
But still i have doubts.
The rabbit hole goes much deeper and is much older.
It all starts with the apostasy of king solomon
and the kabbalah/zohar and the many daemons/jiins...
And that does not fit for the khazarians(800ad) what not means
that there is no connection to the jews.

oh yes i know
its about the jews and what they brought out of babylon: THAT HORRIBLE RELIGION.
solomon's apostasy resulted in the expulsion and captivity! so its plenty old enough.
and the love for idolatry seems to be at the heart of it all.
the rabbinic system from babylon: BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY PASSED ON AS TRUTH TO THE KHAZARS.
the khazars just became the hoardes.
and its still fits for Jesus to say that, because John was carried forward in time TO THE LORD'S DAY. the END, and he was shown stuff from the first advent to the second.
he could have been referring directly to these, though is we apply His letter te the phildephians and symrna just to them, then he meant something else: a spiritual meaning i guess.
either way, i know about that rabbit hole ada: that is were i STARTED: LOL!
the masons and solomons temple.

what it comes down to is: there are no real jews (hebrews) to speak of (except a timy remnant The Lord said he would have what ever they look like and who they are i do not know). whether they are the sephardic or as Gilad is suspecting, there are arabs with mixed blood who are jews (have practised judaism) for a long long time.
i need to look into what they study and believe...if its just Moses, we got some candidates.

it doesn't matter - it just demolishes the idea of the chosen race and the khazar's right to palestine.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by ada on Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:50 pm


Wow zone very good.
I fully agree.
Thank you.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by northwye on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:45 pm

This has gone off topic.

Daniel 11: 33 had one fulfillment when the apostles of Christ instructed many during the first century, and some of those who were instructed and became Christians were persecuted by the Jews (Galatians 4: 29, I Thessalonians 2: 14-15) and later by the Romans. This prophecy will have another fulfillment in the last days when the Remnant of Israel and the 144,000 will instruct those who will be coming out of false doctrines and out of the churches. Matthew 24: 9, Luke 21: 16 and John 16: 2 predict that during the tribulation Christians will be martyred because of their strong following of Christ, their keeping of the commandments of God , and love for the truth. John 16;2 suggests churches - called "synagogues" - will be involved in causing the Christians to be killed, while Luke 21: 16 says they will be betrayed by relatives and friends to be put to death.

Finally, in verse 45, the chapter ends by saying "...yet shall he come to his end, and non shall help him." Those who want to reduce this chapter of scenarios given to Daniel by the angel to nothing but the story of the struggles between the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empires, will claim that verse 45 was fulfilled and exhausted as prophecy with the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes by disease in 164 BC, who was the King of the North, or of Syria opposed to Egypt of the South. But the literalist crowd tends to claim that prophecy can have only one specific fulfillment, not more than one fulfillment. The test of whether Daniel 11 is exhausted in the battle between the Kings of the Seleucid empire of the North and the Kings of the Ptolemaic empire of the South is the extent to which these somewhat detailed scenarios fit episodes of later history - and what many of the verses from 33 to 41 mean and their possible applications.

In Daniel 10 an angel was sent to give Daniel the prophecy which is written in chapter 11. "Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

The angel experienced opposition from the forces of Satan when he was on his way to give Daniel the prophecy. Why would Satan want to stop the angel of the Lord from giving Daniel the prophecy of chapter 11? The prophecy must have been important, and was not limited to the struggle between the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empires. The angel said to Daniel, "...I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the
vision is for many days." This does not sound like the prophecy is limited to the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid struggle over a few generations.

The scenarios of Daniel 11 are more specific than, for example,
Revelation 17: 11, and Zechariah 13: 8-9. Revelation 17: 11, the six, seven,
eight cycle runs over and over in the Bible. It is a spiritual cycle.
Number six is man without having been spiritually changed by God so he
can relate to God. Man was made on the sixth day (Genesis 1: 26). In
Genesis 2: 2-3 God ended his work of creating the universe and blessed
the seventh day. Man was to rest on the seventh day of the week to
signify being in the rest of God, and actually to rest so man could
not grow tired.

The beast that was in Rev 17: 11 is the eighth, and is of the seventh.

This must be the second beast of Rev 13: 11-18, the one who has two
horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. This beast is often
called the False Prophet, but it is an image that the popular
interpreters of prophecy have anthropomorphized into one single super
"False Prophet"and again placed in the vague future, in the
tribulation. The second beast can also be seen as the church after the
falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 which has been going on for
decades, thought the popular prophets say this too will only happen during
the tribulation.

Note that in Rev 13: 18 the number of this beast which is said to be
the number of man is 666. I know many translations say of A man, but
for some strange reason the NIV, the Never Inspired Version, has it
right: its the number of man.

So man who is in number seven, in the rest of God, because he has been
changed by God, or actually a few men have been changed by God, but
they are salt and influence the whole world to some extent, according
to the six, seven, eight cycle, will move out of number seven into
number eight. Number eight is a mix of being in God with a return to
man's religion. It is Talmudic Judaism, Roman Catholicism and
evangelical Protestantism after the falling away. The six, seven,
eight cycle can be used to predict empires that have within them a
Christian Remnant that salts the whole empire to some extent.

Zechariah 13: 8-9 is an abstract "blueprint" or fundamental principle
derived from the triune nature of God. This principle can predict in
an abstract way the divisions within the group of people who claim to
belong to God. There are three parts to the people who claim to be of
God. Two parts go bad, and God rejects them, but one part, not
necessarily one third, turn to God and to his truth (Christ IS the
truth, not just one who brings us the truth) and God accepts them.
This principle may be seen as more specific than it is, applying to
the end time apostasy of the church. And some reduce it down or
diminish it as a general principle and say it only deals with the
Jews.

Daniel 11 is somewhat like Rev 17: 11 and Zechariah. But it is more
specific than these basic principles. The popular prophets have
conditioned many in the churches to see prophecy in the Bible as
having been written for one specific fulfillment, and not for more
than one fulfillment. Some prophecy was written for one fulfillment,
such as those on the coming of Christ. But not all prophecy was was
written to have just one fulfillment. This tendency to see prophecy
as specific to only one thing, usually in the tribulation, probably
comes from the assumption that the Bible must always be interpreted
literally, which is a false assumption.





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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by Strangelove on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:43 am

In a nutshell Northwye...whats the point your trying to get across in this thread buddy?

Maybe if you start of with a simple one liner instead of posting essays you would grab peoples attention a bit better? Just a suggestion.

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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by northwye on Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:17 am

There are people who habitually post one to three liners on forums and there are forums where the "culture" accepts and encourages byte speak,
and there are a few people who prefer essays of several paragraphs, and maybe a few forums that have the same preference. I didn't know the preferences of this one. I agree that people on forums usually won't read posts that are longer than five or six shorter paragraphs. But then, it depends upon what they are interested in. A few will reads longer posts if its on a topic they are interested in. Apparently Daniel 11 is not one of those here. One to three liner byte speak is something else that should not be encouraged on a Christian forum.


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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by zone on Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:45 am

i read every word of every post.
i read your OP and following.
i commented.
i was looking forward to more.
i'll respectfully refrain from posting anything not directly related to your OPs on your threads in the future,
sorry north.

zone

~
having said that: have you noticed some of us post extensive, long studies, very involved posts as well, north?

do you read them? i dont mind in the slightest if ppl go off topic.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by Strangelove on Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:32 pm

northwye wrote:There are people who habitually post one to three liners on forums and there are forums where the "culture" accepts and encourages byte speak,
and there are a few people who prefer essays of several paragraphs, and maybe a few forums that have the same preference. I didn't know the preferences of this one. I agree that people on forums usually won't read posts that are longer than five or six shorter paragraphs. But then, it depends upon what they are interested in. A few will reads longer posts if its on a topic they are interested in. Apparently Daniel 11 is not one of those here. One to three liner byte speak is something else that should not be encouraged on a Christian forum.

I just think a short intro is a better way to get others involved in the topic before posting the long essay.

I'm certainly not dictating any policies of the forum mate it was just a suggestion. You carry on. pirat

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Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
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Strangelove
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

Post by ada on Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:52 pm

First of all north you are not meant for what i write now,ok?
Huge essays on prophecy can get boring for me.
Cause i have seen many different people man and women
talking about it all the time becoming a (bad) habit.
Many books about it have been written from judeo-christian
authors making a lot of money of it.Most of them are man made
and are supported from a special interest group..
There is not much prophecy to be full filled in our days because
Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy.No group,no books and all
the more the many self declared prophets who act like rivals cause
they all seem to feel to be predestined.
I would rather expect that God talks to us on an individually basis.
And if he wants to reveal a secret it should of cause be revealed,
otherwise and i believe that this is the normal case, it should kept secret.
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Re: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality

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