Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

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Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:46 pm

There are a growing number of evangelical Christians who TODAY are claiming that God finished with the Jews and Israel (as a Nation) almost 2000 years ago after Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) was crucified. In fact, most of European Christians believe this now. It seems that support for Israel has diminished throughout the World, with most support only coming from American believers. In fact, even hatred for Israel has infiltrated most European churches.

The claim is that Israel has been completely replaced by the church and that all Old Testament promises for Israel are ONLY applicable to the church. Some even question whether the Jews of today really are Jews and claim that they are of the synagogue od satan. This article will address these issues and go on to prove that the Jews of today ARE Jews and that the OT promises for Israel ARE for the Jews and that God has NOT finished with Israel (the Jewish nation) as a Nation and that the Israel of today is TRULY the fulfilment of prophecy.

Who is the Jew?
Some claim that all the Jewish women were raped by gentile Roman men in AD70 so no-one knows whether the children born were Jewish or gentile? They suggest that the records were lost so no-one can be certain, anymore who the true natural Jews are.

If it is true that true natural Jews do not exist, why did God make so many prophecies regarding the Jews (in the Bible) regarding the end times? Zechariah refers to a natural Jew in chapter 8 verse 23,

“This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days

ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ “

so where did they come from?

It is certain that God told us (through the prophets in many places) that He would bring the Jews back to the Land after desolations of many generations

Isaiah 61:4 “And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.”

Israel were exiled for ONE generation when they were taken to Babylon. This states MANY generations. Israel were exiled again around AD70 and were exiled for the best part of 2000 years. They returned again in 1948 in which the Land was in desolation, but since 1948 the desolation of many generations has seen the Land become fruitful again. So 1948 was the fulfilment.

Some say that the current nation of Israel is a political mistake and that the leadership in Israel were all part of the Illuminati/freemason conspiracy. Firstly, is God in control or not? If Heaven is His throne and the Earth is His footstool (with Jerusalem as the place of His rest) then God will intervene – no such things as political mistakes if God has the ultimate control. So whether the masons were involved or not, GOD was involved! Anyway, why would God say that He would bring the Jews back to the Land if He knew that the Jews would cease to exist? Clearly God is telling us that THEY WOULD exist in the LAST DAYS.

Anyway, you need to ask - was every single Jewish woman in Israel really raped by the Romans in 70 AD? Was every single Jewish male killed so that no more viable males existed? Actually, many Israelites were living in other countries (Diaspora) and would come to visit Jerusalem for the feasts. Furthermore, Jesus gave clear pre 70 AD warnings for those in Jerusalem to flee. Multitudes did.

Even if it was true that most women were raped, does it really remove the Jew. Besides who is naturally Jewish in God’s eyes?

Back to the argument of some: in the Bible times a natural Jew was one born from a Jewish Father. After 70 AD (to a certain extent) there was a problem which needed to be resolved. As I understand it, the leaders (rabbis?) decided that whoever was born of a Jewish mother was now Jewish. So those born of raped women are STILL Jewish. I understand that problem ie it is God who sets the terms - not rabbis. However, let us now consider Ruth. Ruth was a Gentile through the line Jesus came, although her husband was Jewish.

Ruth chose to identify herself with the people of Israel "your people will be my people and your God will be my God".

Paul stated that a true Jew was one inwardly not outwardly, ie simple physical circumcision did not make them Jewish if their hearts were not attuned to God, ie if they weren't Jewish inside. So what makes them Jewish inside?

Paul talks about Abraham and his faith in God. Therefore, faith is an important issue. True Jews are those Jews (not Gentile Christians) who love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength and follow His commandments with a pure heart.

Edited By John
This is actually quite complicated for me to express clearly, but I will try! I will just sum up by saying that anyone who chooses to be a Jew and identify themselves with the Jews and love Israel, like Ruth (who was later, I believe, considered to be Jewish because of her statement) can say "your people are my people and your God is my God" are probably considered Jewish by God.

However, that could mean that all of us Gentile Christians (who identify in that way) would also be Jewish, wouldn't we? NO!


I believe that it is the non Christian Gentiles (who join themselves to Israel) and show that love (for Israel) by following the Torah and getting circumcised are Jewish, but not Christians, although we ARE spiritually Jewish because we have been grafted into the Olive Tree. I believe REAL identification and BECOMING Jewish is much more than having a love for and identifying with Israel. I believe it is a radical life change by virtually being Jewish.

Of course as Christians we no longer need to become Jewish to be part of God's people, but for the non Christian gentile they WOULD have to become Jewish, if they want to become natural Jews because they cannot be spiritual Jews if they are not Christians.

Just to clarify to avoid misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that the Jews are already the people of God and a gentile becoming Jewish saves them. NO! I am not saying that. A gentile may become Jewish but he/she still needs to accept Jesus as their Messiah to become a child of God. I am simply trying to point out the many ways that God preserved the Jewish people as a people

Also, when we consider the all-time global hatred against the Jews, who else would be foolish enough to claim to be Jewish but the true Jew!

So I firmly believe that those who are Jews today are the very same ones that the prophets were prophesying about who would be restored to the Land Of Israel. “God is not man that He should lie”. If He said He will restore the Jews back to the Land after MANY generations from ALL corners of the World – not just from Babylon, then you can be sure that He has done EXACTLY that.
Here's some stats from a must see short video: on
youtube.com/watch?v=ijCA0T2e6wQ

The question is:
Who is blessing Israel, a nation that is hated of all nations [just like the prophecies said], and being pressured by the nations through the UN to divide the Land [warned against according to Prophecy]??

Certainly not Satan, who hates them the most, and is rallying the world against "Israel"!

Certainly not the Illuminati, the UN, or for that matter, not a single nation can claim credit or account for "Israel's" phenomenal stats!

Who, then, is blessing Israel?


God’s Promise Of The Land To Israel

lamblion.us/2011/08/land-of-israel-promise-to-jews.html

This is applicable to this topic we have been pursuing. Please check it out, especially the scripture verses.

This is what that article currently says (although changes are always possible later):

"To whom does the land of Israel belong to?
The answer is really very simple. God gave the land of Israel to Abraham (Genesis 17:8) and to his descendants through Isaac (Genesis 26:2-5) and Jacob (Genesis 28:1-4,13-14).
That means the land belongs to the descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. In other words, the land belongs to the children of Israel, referred to in the New Testament as the Jews (Romans 1:16).

Some immediately protest this claim by arguing that the Abrahamic Covenant has been abrogated either by the Cross or by the disobedience of the Jews. But the Bible clearly teaches that the Abrahamic Covenant is an everlasting one that is still in effect (Genesis 17:7; 1 Chronicles 16:17-18; Psalm 105:8-11; and Romans 9:4).

As to the effect of the Jew's rejection of Jesus, Paul specifically addresses this question in Romans 3. He asks a rhetorical question:"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?" For almost two thousand years the Church has answered this question with a resounding, Yes! But Paul answers it differently. He says, "May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar..." (Romans 3:1-4).

Further, Paul states in Romans 11 that the disobedience of the Jews has not nullified the promises of God to them, "for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29). God's promises are going to be fulfilled to a believing remnant (Romans 9: 27). In fact, in Romans 9:4, Paul specifically states that God's promises to the Jews are still valid.

Two Land Covenants
What most people do not know is that there are two Old Testament covenants pertaining to the land of Israel. The Abrahamic Covenant gives the title of the land to the Jews in perpetuity. A later covenant, the Mosaic Land Covenant — or Canaan Covenant — of Deuteronomy 28-30 defines the conditions for possession and enjoyment of the land.

This latter covenant is often referred to as the "Palestinian Covenant," but that is a misnomer, for the land was never called Palestine until after the second Jewish revolt in 132-135 A.D. At that time the Romans dubbed it "Palestine" to erase the memory of its Jewish heritage and to insult the Jews, for Palestine is the Latin word for Philistine, the ancient enemy of Israel.

Let me illustrate the role and relationship of these two covenants with a modern day example. Let's say you buy a car for a child of yours and put the title in the child's name. But you explain to the child that there are conditions for using the car — such as no speeding. And you warn your child that a speeding ticket will result in the loss of the privilege of driving the car for a period of two weeks. If the child gets a ticket and you lock the car up in the garage for two weeks, the car still belongs to the child because the child's name is on the title. But the child has temporarily lost possession of the vehicle.

In like manner, the Abrahamic Covenant (about 2,000 B.C.) gave the title of the land to the Jews for eternity. The Canaan Covenant (about 1,250 B.C.) defined the terms for possession and use of the land. Title and possession are not the same thing. The Jews have lost possession of the land from time to time, but they have never lost their God-given title.

The Canaan Covenant
The Land Covenant promised that Israel would become the prime nation of the world if the Jews were obedient to God (Deuteronomy 28:1,13). But the covenant warned that many curses would befall the people if they were disobedient (Deuteronomy 28:15-37), including exile from the land (Deuteronomy 28:38-57). The covenant warned further that if temporary exile did not restore the Jews to obedience, they would suffer worldwide dispersion and persecution (Deuteronomy 28:58-68). But nowhere are they told that their disobedience would lead to a loss of their title to the land.
In fact, the Land Covenant ends in chapter 30 with a prophecy and a promise that a day will come — after the Jews have experienced the curses of the covenant — when the Lord will restore them to their land once again: "The Lord will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. And the Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it"(Deuteronomy 30:3-5).

For almost 1,900 years the Jews wandered among the nations and suffered severe persecution, just as prophesied in Deuteronomy 28. During that time, their land became desolate as prophesied in Deuteronomy 29. But in this century, God has regathered them from the four corners of the earth, re-established them in their land, and transformed their land from wilderness to milk and honey — as prophesied in Deuteronomy 30.

The only prophecy left to be fulfilled in the Land Covenant is the spiritual salvation of the gathered remnant (Deuteronomy 30:6-8). That will occur soon when they repent and accept Yeshua as their Messiah.

The Abrahamic and Land Covenants make it clear that the Jewish people have both the right to the land of Israel and the right to be back in it today."

Does God change His mind?


Of course not! Can His Word be trusted? Of course!

In Jeremiah 31:35-37

"This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.

The above verses are CLEAR evidence that God will still fulfil His purposes for Israel as shown in Roman 11:28-29

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable"

The promise is to the Jews from Jeremiah 31:31:

"The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

That prophecy is NOT concerning the gentiles or the church. It specifically states "the house of Israel and Judah combined. Ezekiel chapters 36 to 39 states that God will bring the Jews back to the Land in unregenerate and unrepentant hearts first and then convert them later. Zechariah chapters 12-14 discusses the nature of the conversions. Please read Ezekiel 36 to 39. It clearly states that God will give them a heart of flesh later on. What we see in Israel now is the first stage in God's plan of Israel's redemption. We see the physical resurrection of the Land and the people back to its former glories, becoming fruitful again. Next will be Tribulation, Then the spiritual restoration of the Jews. Jesus returns when they FINALLY say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".

Also consider that God knows the end from the beginning. God knew (before the foundation of the Earth) that He would choose a people (the Jews) that they would continuously rebel against Him, that they would reject Jesus and that He would exile them for two thousand years etc. Yet He STILL made those EVERLASTING promises. God DOES NOT change His mind regarding His promises. As stated above, His promises are IRREVOCABLE. God NEVER said that He would wipe out the Jews totally, but that He would ALWAYS reserve a remnant. We are told that only a third of the Jews (in the Land) will survive the Tribulation. These are they who will be converted spiritually.

To say that all the OT prophesies must refer to the church is to make nonsense of His clear promises to the natural people and requires much twisting of the scriptures and allegorising of the simple reading of the text, ie eisergesis instead of exegesis. In other words, it is rationalising using our flawed human brains to reinterpret the clear words of God. We would be using newspaper exegesis, ie we are using current events or public opinion to interpret the Word of God. Quite honestly we should apply "do not be conformed to this world (ie its thinking, attitudes and values) but be TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING OF OUR MINDS. If God said it, then we should accept it. His thoughts and His ways are far higher than our thoughts and our ways.

I would like to add that Paul was specifically referring to Christian JEWS not about Gentile Christians in Romans 9:1-8. He NEVER stated that natural Jews were irrelevant as being Jewish.or being truly Jewish. He was simply stating that natural birth PLUS faith was required to be a true Jew. Therefore a true Jew still needs to be one NATURALLY as a first step to qualify as being Jewish. A completed Jew (natural Jew AND spiritual Jew combined in one person) is the Jew who has received Jesus as their Messiah. That was the whole crux of Paul's message. He then went on to explain that God continues to have a remnant of Jews who WILL choose Jesus as Messiah and be saved. However, before they are saved they are unsaved, unregenerate. Conversion does not take place at natural birth. Therefore, these Jews (who are chosen by grace [not the ones who will not believe] ) are true Jews BEFORE their conversion because they are to be saved later, ie are of the elect. The same is the case for the final generation of natural Jews. A remnant (third) of those who return to the Land in unbelief will be saved when they call upon the Lord.

Going back to the opening question: "does God change His mind?" Sometimes (to our human minds) it may seem He does. For example Ninevah. However, God KNOWS WHAT HE WILL DO. He never changes His mind over what He will do. He knew that the Ninevites would repent. Sometimes God's promises are conditional and sometimes they are unconditional. If it seems God has changed His mind it is because His promise or judgement was conditional. However, the final promises regarding the future glory of Israel, the Jews and the Land are totally unconditional. Here is an example Ezekiel 36:22-24:

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Thenthe nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land."

No indication here of conditions, no mention of repentance. But ....... there is mention of God making them holy (by His own hand) in the subsequent verses. First is the gathering, then later the cleansing, then later receiving the Holy Spirit.

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols."

God SAID IT, it must therefore come to pass (and it is). God's promises regarding Israel is totally dependant on HIM not on the Jews. It is unconditional and IRREVOCABLE


Last edited by John Chingford on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by zone on Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:21 am

John Chingford wrote:There are a growing number of evangelical Christians who TODAY are claiming that God finished with the Jews and Israel (as a Nation) almost 2000 years ago after Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) was crucified. In fact, most of European Christians believe this now. It seems that support for Israel has diminished throughout the World, with most support only coming from American believers. In fact, even hatred for Israel has infiltrated most European churches.

IT ALL MEANS THE FULFILLMENT OF PROMISES BY AND IN by Christ. and FOR the remnant....PER ROMANS 11

become christians. use OT prophecies then claim they are not referring to Christ?

they say to accept the prophesied messiah.

is salvation by race? jews aren't a race.

is salvation by religion? Judaism is not Moses.



CHRISTIAN ZIONISM IS RACIST ANTICHRIST HERESY
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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:59 pm

John.....simple question.

Do we know who REAL Jews are today?

Are you one of these people who are all about the DNA testing to sort out which groups of people are privvy to certain ancient prophecies (that are all fulfilled in Jesus)?

By the way, no-one is claiming God is finished with anyone.

Everyone gets the same deal. Accepting Christ as Messiah BEFORE He returns in judgement...otherwise be judged by the fire.

If you are promoting a different and special deal for 'jews' (whoever they are) then you are HURTING them.

Looking forward to chatting to you about this.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:51 pm

Strangelove wrote:John.....simple question.

Do we know who REAL Jews are today?

Hi Doc

Please read the whole of my article because I answer that question specifically within the article. Please read it again to see my answer to that question.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:36 pm

John Chingford wrote:

Hi Doc

Please read the whole of my article because I answer that question specifically within the article. Please read it again to see my answer to that question.

John this is what I saw from you:

John Chingford wrote:
This is actually quite complicated for me to express clearly, but I will try! I will just sum up by saying that anyone who chooses to be a Jew and identify themselves with God's people and love Israel, like Ruth (who was later, I believe, considered to be Jewish because of her statement) can say "your people are my people and your God is my God" are probably considered Jewish by God.

However, that could mean that all of us Gentile Christians (who identify in that way) are also Jewish. Are we? I believe that it is the non Christian Gentiles (who join themselves to Israel) and show that love (for Israel) by following the Torah and getting circumcised are Jewish, but not Christians, although we ARE spiritually Jewish because we have been grafted into the Olive Tree. I believe REAL identification and BECOMING Jewish is much more than having a love for and identifying with Israel. I believe it is a radical life change by virtually being Jewish.

Of course as Christians we no longer need to become Jewish to be part of God's people, but for the non Christian gentile they WOULD have to become Jewish, if they want to become natural Jews because they cannot be spiritual Jews if they are not Christians.
Also, when we consider the all-time global hatred against the Jews, who else would be foolish enough to claim to be Jewish but the true Jew!

John, forgive me but this is a DISASTROUS MESS!

People who 'choose' to be a 'jew' and who identify with that people are PROBABLY JEWISH?

Exsqueeze me???????

Probably??

And you are straight up promoting conversion of non Christian gentiles to JUDAISM!?

How about we ALL convert to Judaim and consider ourselves part of that people Chingy?

That would work wouldnt it......?....? We all follow the torah (which jews dont even do they follow the TALMUD) and we all get circumsized and BOOM we are all suddenly part of Gods people who he's not finished with and has special plans for right?

Terrible TERRIBLE theology John...I'm very dissapointed with you. This is dispensational dual covenant theology. I wonder if you agree with wiki's statement here:

Dual-covenant theology is a Liberal Christian view that holds that Jews may simply keep the Law of Moses, because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah.

???

Do gentiles have a choice john? Convert to judaism or the noahide laws......or accept Jesus?

Why should any of us bother with Jesus now? No

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:53 pm

[quote="Strangelove"]

Doc, with respect, you are using a strawman argument. Where did I say that becoming Jewish enabled a person to become a child of God???

Please read through what I said again (carefully). I did say it was difficult to explain, therefore I hoped you would take some care over what I said before making assumptions.

You have got what I said completely wrong. I NEVER stated that gentiles could become part of the people of God by becoming Jews. I was stating that gentiles who decided to become Jewish can become Jewish. However, becoming Jewish cannot save them . I wasn't making that point. I was simply explaining the different ways that God enabled the Jews to survive. Of course they need their Messiah to become a child of God. Without Jesus it is impossible.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:00 pm

John Chingford wrote:

Doc, with respect, you are using a strawman argument. Where did I say that becoming Jewish enabled a person to become a child of God???

Please read through what I said again (carefully). I did say it was difficult to explain, therefore I hoped you would take some care over what I said before making assumptions.

You have got what I said completely wrong. I NEVER stated that gentiles could become part of the people of God by becoming Jews. I was stating that gentiles who decided to become Jewish can become Jewish. However, becoming Jewish cannot save them . I wasn't making that point. I was simply explaining the different ways that God enabled the Jews to survive. Of course they need their Messiah to become a child of God. Without Jesus it is impossible.

If you decide to become jewish then you can become jewish?

And God isnt finished with the jews right?

So HOW is God not finished with the jews EXACTLY?

Does their covenant mean that God WILL SAVE THEM? Cuz their 'jews'?

If thats true then you have created for the jews their very own assurance and pathway to salvation REGARDLESS of whether or not faith in Jesus is involved.

You are basically saying...if your a jew then YOUR FINE! Gods not finished with you.

How is that helping jews to come to Jesus Chingy?

I guess you agree with john hagee that its pointless evanglizing the Gospel to jews?

Whats the point I guess. Gods gonna take care of em no matter what right?

No

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:02 pm

Maybe I shoulda stayed jewish john right?

I mean...'all Israel' will be saved correct?

Maybe I should go back to being jewish Chingster what do you recon?

It's a safer bet after all.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:10 pm

[quote="Strangelove"]

Straw man again!!! ie making me out to be saying something I am not saying.

By the way, I have edited my OP now.
I do not agree with John Hagee. I read in Zechariah 12-14 and in Ezekiel 36-39 and many other prophecies where God CLEARLY states that He will bring the Jews back to the Land, and will reveal Himself to them. Mind you, in those days it will only be a third of the remaining Jews who will be saved. They HAVE to receive Jesus and say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" just as Jesus said "your house is being left desolate to you, you will not see me again UNTIL you say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:20 pm

John Chingford wrote:

Straw man again!!! ie making me out to be saying something I am not saying.

By the way, I have edited my OP now.
I do not agree with John Hagee. I read in Zechariah 12-14 and in Ezekiel 36-39 and many other prophecies where God CLEARLY states that He will bring the Jews back to the Land, and will reveal Himself to them. Mind you, in those days it will only be a third of the remaining Jews who will be saved. They HAVE to receive Jesus and say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" just as Jesus said "your house is being left desolate to you, you will not see me again UNTIL you say "blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".

God has revealed Himslef ALREADY Chingy!

It was 2,000 years ago when He came manifest in the flesh!

The Gospel has gone out to the whole world and everyone knows about Jesus including people who call themselves jews.

That was the plan! Theres no other plan. Ancient prophesise to the House of Israel are FULFILLED in Christ Jesus. Offering them some other plan or assurance is TERRIBLE John, just awful. There is nothing left for the jews but to accept Jesus their Lord and Saviour NOW!

God is revealed in JESUS. There is gonna be no more revelation. The next time Jesus comes He's comming with the FIRE in judgement over the men of the earth. If the jews or anyone else has not accepted Jesus at that point then they will be thrown into that fire.

STOP telling jews they will have opportunity in the future when God will reveal Himself to them to accept Jesus at that stage.

Such talk is JEW HATRED of the most dispicable kind. You are shutting up the kingdom for them, this is the LEAVEN of the pharisees and you are spreading it mate.

STOP NOW. Realise your error, and repent of this disastrous theology please.

True or false. The NAR and the charismatic movement that you fight so hard against all subscribe to this same Christian zionist theology that you are displaying here?

John...pre-trib rapture and premillenialism is a trap of SATAN.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by MUSKOKAMAN on Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:04 am

How many of the population will be saved on his return Doc.?

20% 33% 50%?

If we hold to the "2 shall be in the field and 1 will leave to be with God" theory then that means half of the planet will be saved the other half condemned!

If that is true then Half the world will have to be Christian by your theory and as that obviously isn't the case then it means something else OR us Christians are in for a real shocker!

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:40 am

MUSKOKAMAN wrote:How many of the population will be saved on his return Doc.?

20% 33% 50%?

If we hold to the "2 shall be in the field and 1 will leave to be with God" theory then that means half of the planet will be saved the other half condemned!

If that is true then Half the world will have to be Christian by your theory and as that obviously isn't the case then it means something else OR us Christians are in for a real shocker!

I have no idea what your talking about?

Percentages...?...? HUH?

Who cares?

2 in the field and one will be taken is obviously not an indicator of percentages.

If you wanna use that logic then how many people are gonna be in a FIELD when he comes. Not many.

Lolz.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:03 pm

Strangelove wrote:God has revealed Himslef ALREADY Chingy!

It was 2,000 years ago when He came manifest in the flesh!

The Gospel has gone out to the whole world and everyone knows about Jesus including people who call themselves jews.

That was the plan! Theres no other plan. Ancient prophesise to the House of Israel are FULFILLED in Christ Jesus. Offering them some other plan or assurance is TERRIBLE John, just awful. There is nothing left for the jews but to accept Jesus their Lord and Saviour NOW!

God is revealed in JESUS. There is gonna be no more revelation. The next time Jesus comes He's comming with the FIRE in judgement over the men of the earth. If the jews or anyone else has not accepted Jesus at that point then they will be thrown into that fire.

STOP telling jews they will have opportunity in the future when God will reveal Himself to them to accept Jesus at that stage.

Such talk is JEW HATRED of the most dispicable kind. You are shutting up the kingdom for them, this is the LEAVEN of the pharisees and you are spreading it mate.

STOP NOW. Realise your error, and repent of this disastrous theology please.

True or false. The NAR and the charismatic movement that you fight so hard against all subscribe to this same Christian zionist theology that you are displaying here?

John...pre-trib rapture and premillenialism is a trap of SATAN.

First: I did a thorough investigation into NAR and the charismatic movement, some time ago. THEY DO NOT subscribe to the same Christian Zionist theology. In fact, they generally subscribe to Dominionism, Kingdom now and replacementism (or "the New Israel").. By the way Dominionism (which is generally preterist and post Millennialist) has its origins in the Catholic Church and specifically was spread by Jesuit priests as a counter reformation tactic. NAR and myself could not be further apart in our doctrine!

Second: I will simply quote Zechariah 12 and ask WHEN HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED? Please read it all before you comment. It cannot be allegorised away. It is clear and has not yet happened in history. You cannot say it is referring to the church - it simply will not fit!

"This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the LORD. “I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.’

“On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

“The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives."

Me a Jew Hater?:
You consider me to be a Jew hater because you think I teach leaven and do not tell the truth??? The leaven Jesus was referring to was hypocrisy and false teaching based from the traditions, oral Law and the commentaries (rather than the scriptures). I am not doing this.

I am not and will not state that the Jews have a second chance. No Jewish person has EVER been in the position of having a second chance because the date of the Second Coming is unknown. Just because there will be a time of a National revival which will commence the 1000 year reign of Christ, no Jewish person can ever be certain that they will be part of it. Every Jew needs to decide for Jesus before it is too late. However (as in the Wesleyan revival) revivals take place from time to time within nations. I believe (according to scripture) that the final national revival will take place in Israel according to the above passage, but because no-one knows when it will take place I preach Christ to them NOW just in case they miss the revival and die beforehand.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:03 pm

John Chingford wrote:First: I did a thorough investigation into NAR and the charismatic movement, some time ago. THEY DO NOT subscribe to the same Christian Zionist theology. In fact, they generally subscribe to Dominionism, Kingdom now and replacementism (or "the New Israel")..

Its the SAME THING Chingster!

It all leads to the same place which is a kingdom of God on earth. Its the master stroke of BRITISH ISRAELISM. Which ever road you take on the journey of apostacy, whichever cult you decide to follow whether it be judaism or Christian zionism or dominionism it ALWAYS leads to GLOBAL COMMUNISM (actually communitarianism). And its always leadership based in JERUSALEM controlling everything. WAKE UP man!

John Chingford wrote:By the way Dominionism (which is generally preterist and post Millennialist) has its origins in the Catholic Church and specifically was spread by Jesuit priests as a counter reformation tactic. NAR and myself could not be further apart in our doctrine!

And the jesuits and he RCC have their origins in TALMUDISM and the temple cult of apostate yahweism.

John Chingford wrote:Second: I will simply quote Zechariah 12 and ask WHEN HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED? Please read it all before you comment. It cannot be allegorised away. It is clear and has not yet happened in history. You cannot say it is referring to the church - it simply will not fit!

Of course its happened dude. Otherwise you are calling Jesus a liar. He said that the prophets prophesied up till John and that the people had witnessed all that they had said was coming.

Dont base your theology off ancient OT prophecies Chingy. That is a huge error. Listen to your king and His diciples. They said NO EARTHLY KINGDOM. Everything in the OT is FINISHED. It ALL points to Jesus in one way or another.

John Chingford wrote:Me a Jew Hater?:
You consider me to be a Jew hater because you think I teach leaven and do not tell the truth??? The leaven Jesus was referring to was hypocrisy and false teaching based from the traditions, oral Law and the commentaries (rather than the scriptures). I am not doing this.

You are indeed teaching doctrines from the oral traditions of the pharisees. A global earthly kingdom is THEIR BABY. They injected that idea into the Church. They appeal to CARNAL man to water that satanic seed and its WORKING.

If you were teaching from scriptures you would heed Jesus words not try and twist ancient OT prophesy to teach an earthly kingdom (whom SATAN will be the god of) like CYRUS SCHOFIELD the man who helped the leaven on its way into minds of the unlearned thanks to his ZIONIST fundraiser Samuel Utenmeyer.

John Chingford wrote:I am not and will not state that the Jews have a second chance. No Jewish person has EVER been in the position of having a second chance because the date of the Second Coming is unknown. Just because there will be a time of a National revival which will commence the 1000 year reign of Christ, no Jewish person can ever be certain that they will be part of it. Every Jew needs to decide for Jesus before it is too late. However (as in the Wesleyan revival) revivals take place from time to time within nations. I believe (according to scripture) that the final national revival will take place in Israel according to the above passage, but because no-one knows when it will take place I preach Christ to them NOW just in case they miss the revival and die beforehand.

If that was true, then why even bother with this revival nonsense? Why do you even preach it?

Tell me, this natinal revival of the 'jewish nation' (the ones who absolutely HATE Jesus)...whe is it gonna happen? Before or after the second coming? If its before, what POSSIBLE scenario can you envisage that would facilitate this remarkable turn around in the views of the talmudists who commit the unpardonable sin as frequently as we eat breakfast?

Why not forget about it and simply preach Christ crucified and acceptance of the Lord as Saviour. Even by talking about this 'revival' which is nowhere to be seen in the NT, you are giving jews a false assurance. There is going to be NO earthly kingdom run by Jesus from Jerusalem. Only a FALSE kingdom run by a FALSE messiah. If you dont wake up soon you are going to be worshipping that son of perdition. This is a grave issue mate. Maybe this is why God has guided you to this forum?

John, do you mind me asking how long you've been a Christian and which churches/denominations you have attended and what is your denomination now, thanks.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by John Chingford on Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Doc said:
And the jesuits and the RCC have their origins in TALMUDISM and the temple cult of apostate yahweism.


My Reply:
This is not true!!! The RCC and the Jesuits etc have their origins in old Babylonic religion. Old Babylonic religion began through Nimrod at the time of the Tower of Babel which led to Baal (sungod ) worship. It was a satanic gnostic religion (in opposition to the LIVING GOD) based on the lie in the garden “you shall be like God”. It began BEFORE Abraham came on the scene, so was a long time before the Talmud came into existence. The Talmud and the Kabbalah may have included some of this religion, but the RCC based their religion on Babylonic (not Talmudic) religion.

This Babylonic religion spread throughout the world after the dispersion at the Tower of Babel.

Please watch this excellent series of videos which illustrate the above in a greater way and prove the origins of the Catholic Organisation. This video is the first in a series of about 78 (which are easy to find after watching the first):
youtube.com/watch?v=HDDGl79x4Pc

Doc said:
Of course its happened dude. Otherwise you are calling Jesus a liar. He said that the prophets prophesied up till John and that the people had witnessed all that they had said was coming. Dont base your theology off ancient O
T prophecies

My Reply:
Jesus may have said that the prophets prophesied until John the Baptist (ie up to that present day) but He NEVER said that there would be no more prophesies. The fact is that there are prophecies by Paul (in his letters) eg 1 Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3 and also in the Book of Revelation (ie The prophets/prophesies ended with the Apostle John, not with John the Baptist).

Look at the context of Matthew 11:9-14. Jesus was talking about the kingdom of God and about John The Baptist’s mission. He was simply stating that all the prophets up until John prophesied the same things. Also, Jesus DID NOT SAY that the prophesies had ALL been fulfilled.

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John”.
How do you “get” from that verse the understanding that the prophesies were all fulfilled? It simply means that they prophesied until that present moment (because John the Baptist was current news). They prophesised! No mention of full fulfilments, here.

Let me ask some questions:
Does God lie? Does He fail? Does He change His mind?

If God said something will happen you can rest assured IT WILL HAPPEN! ALL prophesies WILL BE FULFILLED! If they haven’t happened yet, then it means they are still to take place in the future. If God knows the beginning from the end and knows how everything will pan out, then He can accurately tell us exactly what will happen in the future.

Therefore, PLEASE read the whole chapter of Zechariah 12 and answer my question. I asked you before but you did not answer. Has that prophecy ever been fulfilled? If so, how was it fulfilled and when.

I have a whole stack of other OT prophecies that speak on the same lines as Zechariah chapters 12-14, such as Ezekiel 36 to 39. You cannot ignore any scripture and write it off as not relevant. If any prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, then it STILL has relevance for a future generation.

Please don’t treat my words with contempt but respect me enough (in humility) to check out what I am saying. Please PROVE that I am wrong.

So please explain Zechariah 12 to me (not leaving out any verse).

Doc said:
Tell me, this national revival of the 'jewish nation' (the ones who absolutely HATE Jesus)...when is it gonna happen? Before or after the second coming? If its before, what POSSIBLE scenario can you envisage that would facilitate this remarkable turn around in the views of the talmudists who commit the unpardonable sin as frequently as we eat breakfast?


My Reply:
I will answer this, but PLEASE let us not get sidetracked onto another subject. I simply do not have the time. I already told you that my personal situation means that I need to spend most of my time looking for employment and new accommodation.

Anyway, I am sure you know what my answer is.

The Bible clearly talks about a rapture of His church. In the same way that Noah and Lot were rescued (in advance of God’s judgement) so the church will be rescued, as the scriptures say “we are not appointed to wrath”.

The whole Bible convinces me that there will be a pretrib rapture. I could quote hundreds of passages (but do not have time). However, I am not debating the question of the pretrib rapture here. I just want to make the point that the rapture could trigger off the scenario you asked me to suggest.

By the way, The Bible doesn’t say that the whole of Israel (as it stands) will be saved. It says there will be a remnant. Those Talmudic unrepentant Jews who continue to hate Jesus will die in the Great Tribulation, if they continue in their unbelief.

Not all Jews are Talmudic Jews. Most are secular. Most hold to the traditions of Jewishness from their hearts, not from religion (as such). The rapture will create dramatic changes in multitudes (Jews and Gentiles) who will suddenly realise that the true believers were correct all along. As Paul stated, there will be a time when the Jews will be provoked to jealousy. Could the rapture trigger that off?

As already stated: Zechariah 12-14 and Ezekiel 36-39 talks about a National revival just before the second coming which happens AFTER the Great Tribulation after the majority of Jews in Israel have been slaughtered.

Jesus told the religious Jewish leaders that “you will not see me again UNTIL you say “blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord” “

Jesus is stating that a time would come when Israel/the Jews WOULD quote those words. The prophesies say that when the whole world is gathered against Israel and is about to obliterate her, they would call out to Jesus. God said (through Zechariah) “they will look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM”.

Look at the context again. It is talking about the Nation of Israel. They will call upon the Lord saying “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” and then Jesus will return physically. As stated above He promised “you will not see me again until you say those words” Obviously those words need to come from repentant hearts.

After the rapture there will be a large number of Jews converted who suddenly wake up to the fact that the Christians were right. However, the majority of Jews will follow the antichrist deceived into believing the ac’s version of the rapture. They will be convinced that the AC is their long awaited messiah who helps them complete the temple and the reestablishment of sacrifices. They will trust him until he desecrates the temple (just like Antiochus did who was a type of what was to come).

From that moment there will be terrible trouble for the Jews which will eventually lead to the Zechariah scene.

By the way, I know you do not accept dispensationalism, but let me ask. If you were right, why do we have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

It goes on to read “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers”

Old Covenant, New Covenant equals at least two dispensations (dispensation means a period of time governed by the terms of a specific covenant).

Paul wrote in Romans about another covenant . an Abrahamic Covenant OF FAITH. This was before the law came in.

Doc said:
this 'revival' which is nowhere to be seen in the NT


My Reply:
Actually it appears in at least 2 places in the NT.

Romans 11:25-27
“blindness in part has happened to Israel untilthe fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” ”

So once the church has been raptured it will signal the start of that period of time

Then in Revelation 7 it states 144,000 Jewish converts being killed for their faith from all the tribes of Israel. To reinforce the point it names all the tribes represented specifically.


Doc Said:
John, do you mind me asking how long you've been a Christian and which churches/denominations you have attended and what is your denomination
now, thanks

My Reply:
Why are you asking?

I do not consider myself to be any one denomination. I align myself to any church that preaches the undiluted unadulterated Word of God truthfully and accurately and obey it’s guidelines, loving the Lord their God with all their heart, mind soul and strength. Problem is that these are now few and far between.

At an early stage in my Christian life God drew me to where it is says “they studied the scriptures daily to see if these things were true”. It “hit me” that if the Berean Jews were commended for checking what EVEN Paul was saying, I should definitely check what modern day preachers are saying. At my baptismal I was given a scripture which has become my life time verse. “study to show yourself a workman who need not be ashamed who rightly divides the Word of Truth” I took that seriously and endeavour to make myself pliable enough to always be capable of learning and correcting any wrong theology I may have.


I have been a born again believer for 34 years and been active in a number of different denominations. Most of these are fast becoming apostate embracing new age, new frontiers, alpha, purpose Driven, emerging church, Toronto B, ecumenism or replacementism etc.

Doc, may I ask if you are willing and humble enough to be corrected if someone shows you from the scriptures something which counters what you currently believe? It seems to be that you think EVERYBODY IS WRONG but you, if our theology differs from yours. I hope I have already shown I am willing to admit if I get something wrong. I have already done that on your site and on CC.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:25 pm

John Chingford wrote:This is not true!!! The RCC and the Jesuits etc have their origins in old Babylonic religion. Old Babylonic religion began through Nimrod at the time of the Tower of Babel which led to Baal (sungod ) worship. It was a satanic gnostic religion (in opposition to the LIVING GOD) based on the lie in the garden “you shall be like God”. It began BEFORE Abraham came on the scene, so was a long time before the Talmud came into existence. The Talmud and the Kabbalah may have included some of this religion, but the RCC based their religion on Babylonic (not Talmudic) religion.

This Babylonic religion spread throughout the world after the dispersion at the Tower of Babel.

John, who is Ignatious Loyola? A marrano JEW. Who are the Jesuits? A secretive organisation of religious 'police' who control the vatican and myrder any pope who doesnt go along with their agenda.

Who runs the RCC? The jesuits.

Why is the RCC signed up for the talmudic NOAHIDE LAWS?

Who are the pharisees of today? The same people who follow the oral law of apostate Hebrews who formulated their anti-God doctrines whilst in the babylonian captivity.

The baylonic religion that we are talking about IS THE VERY SAME oral tradition mixed in with the temple cult!

The origins of the RCC and Jesuits is apostate hebrewism. If that apostate religion borrows some heathen traditions why does that matter? The way it entered the Church is through the talmudists.

John Chingford wrote:Jesus may have said that the prophets prophesied until John the Baptist (ie up to that present day) but He NEVER said that there would be no more prophesies. The fact is that there are prophecies by Paul (in his letters) eg 1 Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3 and also in the Book of Revelation (ie The prophets/prophesies ended with the Apostle John, not with John the Baptist).

Where did I say there would be no more prophecies?

For a start Jesus is coming back in the clouds, thats a prophecy to be fulfilled and also JUDGEMENT.

John Chingford wrote:Look at the context of Matthew 11:9-14. Jesus was talking about the kingdom of God and about John The Baptist’s mission. He was simply stating that all the prophets up until John prophesied the same things. Also, Jesus DID NOT SAY that the prophesies had ALL been fulfilled.

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John”.
How do you “get” from that verse the understanding that the prophesies were all fulfilled? It simply means that they prophesied until that present moment (because John the Baptist was current news). They prophesised! No mention of full fulfilments, here.

Yes there is fulfillment. Jesus said His disciples were witness to those things. Done.

You dont like that the OT all pointed to Jesus do you? Dont you know after all your study that everything is about JESUS? EVERYTHING!

But you wanna put the spotlight on carnal things. A great, great shame John. Carnal men just do not get spiritual things. I've seen this soooooo many times with the dispies.

John Chingford wrote:Does God lie? Does He fail? Does He change His mind?

If God said something will happen you can rest assured IT WILL HAPPEN! ALL prophesies WILL BE FULFILLED! If they haven’t happened yet, then it means they are still to take place in the future. If God knows the beginning from the end and knows how everything will pan out, then He can accurately tell us exactly what will happen in the future.

Like I said. Carnal minds look for carnal fulfillment. Spiritual minds who understand the kingdom of God look for spiritual fulfillment.

Jesus said to keep our eyes on the things above not the things below. On NEW Jerusalem not OLD!

But you look to old carnal fleshy Jerusalem and a long extinct nation thats sole purpose was to bring forth the messiah Jesus Christ.

It is a JEWISH FABLE John. Not many come out of this my friend. I know some who have though, its possible.

John Chingford wrote:Therefore, PLEASE read the whole chapter of Zechariah 12 and answer my question. I asked you before but you did not answer. Has that prophecy ever been fulfilled? If so, how was it fulfilled and when.

I have a whole stack of other OT prophecies that speak on the same lines as Zechariah chapters 12-14, such as Ezekiel 36 to 39. You cannot ignore any scripture and write it off as not relevant. If any prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, then it STILL has relevance for a future generation.

Please don’t treat my words with contempt but respect me enough (in humility) to check out what I am saying. Please PROVE that I am wrong.

So please explain Zechariah 12 to me (not leaving out any verse).

So you want a 200 page commentary on Zecheriah? Whats the point? you know what this is gonna look like.

You will say CARNAL.

I will say SPIRITUAL.

You will say JEWS.

I will say CHURCH.

You will say LAND.

I will say JESUS.

Its all fulfilled. Look at the stuff that Zecheriah was shown in his visions?

"Many Nations" will join themselves to the Lord! Its the CHURCH.

The coming of the "branch" and the "King riding on a colt"!....it's JESUS.

Jesus quotes from Zech 13 when He said....”You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered’”

Its all about the temple which Christ rules over. Thats us! The Church!

How can Zech 12 be about a revival or second coming when John quoted "“THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.” in John 19:37 referring to the crucifiztion? Answer me that?

Simple but true statement Chingy:::

There are NO New Testament quotes of Old Testament Scriptures that say anything about Christ’s second coming: Neither from Zechariah nor from Genesis through Malachi. Whenever the New Testament writers quote from the Old Testament in reference to Christ, it is always in the context of His first coming and His church.

John Chingford wrote:My Reply:
I will answer this, but PLEASE let us not get sidetracked onto another subject. I simply do not have the time. I already told you that my personal situation means that I need to spend most of my time looking for employment and new accommodation.

Anyway, I am sure you know what my answer is.

The Bible clearly talks about a rapture of His church. In the same way that Noah and Lot were rescued (in advance of God’s judgement) so the church will be rescued, as the scriptures say “we are not appointed to wrath”.

The whole Bible convinces me that there will be a pretrib rapture. I could quote hundreds of passages (but do not have time). However, I am not debating the question of the pretrib rapture here. I just want to make the point that the rapture could trigger off the scenario you asked me to suggest.

Do you see how every dispy false doctrine is TOTALLY DEPENDANT on another FALSE DOCTRINE?

Thats WHY these ridiculous doctrines need to be invented otherwise the LEAVEN just wont work!

Pre-trib rapture is NOT GONNA HAPPEN mate! And who said the tribulation is Gods WRATH? We are not appointed to wrath, sure....but that doesnt mean we're not gonna be on the end of HUMAN PERSECUTION!! When have Christians ever been pulled out of anything like that?

John Chingford wrote:By the way, The Bible doesn’t say that the whole of Israel (as it stands) will be saved. It says there will be a remnant. Those Talmudic unrepentant Jews who continue to hate Jesus will die in the Great Tribulation, if they continue in their unbelief.

Not all Jews are Talmudic Jews. Most are secular. Most hold to the traditions of Jewishness from their hearts, not from religion (as such). The rapture will create dramatic changes in multitudes (Jews and Gentiles) who will suddenly realise that the true believers were correct all along. As Paul stated, there will be a time when the Jews will be provoked to jealousy. Could the rapture trigger that off?

Nope...no pre-trib rapture..and your promotion of that anti-scriptural talmudic fairy tail invented by Darby and Schofield and funded by Samuel Utenmyer is HATING ON SECULAR Jews who might be interested in coming to Christ if it wasnt for deceived dispys who keep offering them an insurance option.

"Meh"...they're thinking...."might as well wait on this pre-trib rapture thingee, when that happens I might think about accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour"

Cant you se how this leaven is stopping "jews" of all kinds from coming to Jesus?

AND YOU ARE HELPING!

What a masterstroke of the evil to come as an angel of light and teach people this nonsense.

John Chingford wrote:As already stated: Zechariah 12-14 and Ezekiel 36-39 talks about a National revival just before the second coming which happens AFTER the Great Tribulation after the majority of Jews in Israel have been slaughtered.

No, it doesnt talk about that. Its dispy programming that makes you think that. When Jesus and the apostles talk about those prophecies they link them with the FIRST COMING. Wake up dude.

John Chingford wrote:Jesus told the religious Jewish leaders that “you will not see me again UNTIL you say “blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord” “

Jesus is stating that a time would come when Israel/the Jews WOULD quote those words. The prophesies say that when the whole world is gathered against Israel and is about to obliterate her, they would call out to Jesus. God said (through Zechariah) “they will look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM”.

That happened at the crucifixion according to John. Are you more of an authority than John?

Is Schofield? Or Darby? Or the Plymouth Brethren?

John Chingford wrote:Look at the context again. It is talking about the Nation of Israel. They will call upon the Lord saying “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” and then Jesus will return physically. As stated above He promised “you will not see me again until you say those words” Obviously those words need to come from repentant hearts.

It already has come from their mouths. From awakened Jews who joined the CHURCH!

Remember? To the Jews fist then to the Gentiles? Helloooooo????

John Chingford wrote:After the rapture there will be a large number of Jews converted who suddenly wake up to the fact that the Christians were right. However, the majority of Jews will follow the antichrist deceived into believing the ac’s version of the rapture. They will be convinced that the AC is their long awaited messiah who helps them complete the temple and the reestablishment of sacrifices. They will trust him until he desecrates the temple (just like Antiochus did who was a type of what was to come).

From that moment there will be terrible trouble for the Jews which will eventually lead to the Zechariah scene.

Thats the Hal Lindsay masonic Hollywood movie script. There is no such thing as THE antichrist. Antichrist is a verb. This just shows that for all your professed scholarship, you havn't really studied. I mean, lolz....you read the NIV! You dont even look at the greek or hebrew.

The truth is very simple, and requires no exciting and elaborate storyline.

This is the truth. And this is coming from a FORMER JEW of 30 years.

God is finished with the Jews. There ARE NO JEWS! There are only eastern european imposters who follow the laws of the PHARISEES called the TALMUD.

God is done with the jew / gentile distiction. God is done with fleshly special nations.

God is only concerned with ONE THING. And that is, that EVERYONE believe on the risen Son of God, the Messiah Jesus Christ NOW before He returns IN JUDGEMENT with FIRE for the wicked and ternal life for those who believed BY FAITH IN THE GOOD NEWS (not who believed coz they saw summink weird like people vaporizing off in a fake pre trib rapture)

John Chingford wrote:By the way, I know you do not accept dispensationalism, but let me ask. If you were right, why do we have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah”

It goes on to read “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers”

Old Covenant, New Covenant equals at least two dispensations (dispensation means a period of time governed by the terms of a specific covenant).

Paul wrote in Romans about another covenant . an Abrahamic Covenant OF FAITH. This was before the law came in.

Salvation has always been by faith. No dispensations. Doesnt matter if you have 50 covenants it doesnt make dispensations. You really need to get away from this leaven. Maybe thats why God guided you here?

John Chingford wrote:Actually it appears in at least 2 places in the NT.

Romans 11:25-27
“blindness in part has happened to Israel untilthe fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

FULFILLED. To the Jew first THEN TO THE GENTILE.

Thats the fullness come in. The Gospels gone out to the world.

CONTINUED≈

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by Strangelove on Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:37 pm

John Chingford wrote:“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” ”

He came, on a colt....to Jacob....and turned away the ungodliness to all those who pressed into the New Covenant. NT writers even quote this passage in reference to His first coming. Cant you see that?

John Chingford wrote:So once the church has been raptured it will signal the start of that period of time

Then in Revelation 7 it states 144,000 Jewish converts being killed for their faith from all the tribes of Israel. To reinforce the point it names all the tribes represented specifically.

Exciting movie script AGAIN Chingy!

Those tribes dont exist anymore. Why get the 'jews' all excited about DNA and meaningless genealogies...?...? when the real issue is that they need to come to Jesus NOW before its too late?

YOU ARE HURTING THEM!!! STOP IT!

It is JEW HATRED!

John Chingford wrote:Why are you asking?

Just interested to see where and by whom you've been 'churched'.

John Chingford wrote:I do not consider myself to be any one denomination. I align myself to any church that preaches the undiluted unadulterated Word of God truthfully and accurately and obey it’s guidelines, loving the Lord their God with all their heart, mind soul and strength. Problem is that these are now few and far between.

Thats true but I have no idea why YOU are saying that?

The Christian zionist doctrines of pre-trib rapture and premillenialism, and dual covenant theology that you promote are absolutely RAMPANT in the professing church today. RAMPANT I SAYZ!

It's BRITISH ISRAELISM. Do some research!

John Chingford wrote:At an early stage in my Christian life God drew me to where it is says “they studied the scriptures daily to see if these things were true”. It “hit me” that if the Berean Jews were commended for checking what EVEN Paul was saying, I should definitely check what modern day preachers are saying. At my baptismal I was given a scripture which has become my life time verse. “study to show yourself a workman who need not be ashamed who rightly divides the Word of Truth” I took that seriously and endeavour to make myself pliable enough to always be capable of learning and correcting any wrong theology I may have.

Good, you have LOTS of studying left to do!

John Chingford wrote:I have been a born again believer for 34 years and been active in a number of different denominations. Most of these are fast becoming apostate embracing new age, new frontiers, alpha, purpose Driven, emerging church, Toronto B, ecumenism or replacementism etc.

Theres heresies in your own backyard too Johnny.

Replacementism? LOL! Who got replaced? EVERYONE is invited to press into the New Covenant!

John Chingford wrote:Doc, may I ask if you are willing and humble enough to be corrected if someone shows you from the scriptures something which counters what you currently believe? It seems to be that you think EVERYBODY IS WRONG but you, if our theology differs from yours. I hope I have already shown I am willing to admit if I get something wrong. I have already done that on your site and on CC.

No probs buddy. I'm all ears. You will have to do better than ancient OT prophecis which NT writers themselves talk about in reference to the FIRST coming!

Keep that open mind and be willing to follow the truth even if it shows that everything you've believed in and taught othres is a lie of satan. Evil or Very Mad

Regards....

The Doc.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by ada on Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:49 pm


The Jews are not that important. I mean not more than any other group like catholic s, protestants or what group ever..I only have hope for them if they give away their wealth for good. That means for me in using it to make the name of our Lord Jesus Christ great in this world,instead of fighting against him and killing and brainwashing the whole earth.Otherwise they will get lost any way.
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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by MUSKOKAMAN on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:39 am

Here's a question for you doc.

How many people out of the 7 billion now here and alive are gonna be saved?

Numbers I want numbers at least as close as you can estimate it.

Seeing as the end times are close at hand and all.

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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by zone on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:05 pm

John Chingford wrote:
Therefore, PLEASE read the whole chapter of Zechariah 12 and answer my question. I asked you before but you did not answer. Has that prophecy ever been fulfilled? If so, how was it fulfilled and when.

I have a whole stack of other OT prophecies that speak on the same lines as Zechariah chapters 12-14, such as Ezekiel 36 to 39...

all prefigures of Mount Zion (Zion) which is NEW JERUSALEM.

Hebrew prophecies in that language were pictoral (picture language, block-ish, unchanging. the pictures the prophets said were illustrative of what would be seen in the Greek as the spiritual (AND VERY LITERAL) realities.

please don't forget that Zech and Eze. etc were essentially PROMISES.

there are no more RACIAL/DNA/FLESH promises to ANYONE whatsoever. NONE.

Ezekiel's temple was NEW JERUSALEM (leave the outer court unmeasure, there will be so many gebntiles saved, dont bother...it cant contain them all), the same "city" (eternity) that John "saw" in Revelation. Ezekeil was pictoral, in the language of Temple and accompanying symbolic representations of Christ, and John actually combined the greek AND Hebraic imagery to the FAR fulfillments the ancient Hebrews saw.

if there are flesh descendants of Abe (remnant of ancient Israel) left who are not yet christians and church - the eternalpurpose, they will be before the Second Advent whereever they are NOW. some may be in Palestine today...so?

when Jesus left Moriah desolate He meant FOREVER. The change from The Old Covenant (a SHADOW) OF THE NEW AND BETTER was passed away FOREVER He meant it. New Jerusalem is our destination, and even Abe knew it.

the Pharisees and physically or carnally minded believers of today didn't and don't understand that Jesus said MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD and He meant it. there is NO NEW TESTAMENT message whatsoever of an earthly kingdom. not there. if we continue to look to the OT to interpret the NEW, we'll always fall back into the galatian heresy.
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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by zone on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:11 pm

MUSKOKAMAN wrote:Here's a question for you doc.

How many people out of the 7 billion now here and alive are gonna be saved?

Numbers I want numbers at least as close as you can estimate it.

Seeing as the end times are close at hand and all.

why are you asking doc something scripture never tell us.

Jesus said few.
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Re: Has God Finished With The Jews And The Nation Of Israel?

Post by zone on Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:14 pm

John Chingford wrote:
I have been a born again believer for 34 years and been active in a number of different denominations. Most of these are fast becoming apostate embracing new age, new frontiers, alpha, purpose Driven, emerging church, Toronto B, ecumenism or replacementism etc.
.

what's replacementism?

is that the so-called "heresy" that the church replaces israel?

BELIEVING ISRAEL, CALLED OUT OF APOSTATE ISRAEL BECAME THE CHURCH.

WHAT REPLACE?

THE GENTILES ARE GRAFTED INTO THE CHURCH.

IF ANYTHING, APOSTATE JEWS/PHARISEES ARE NOW TRYING TO REPLACE THE CHURCH (AND CHRIST) WITH BABYLONIAN TALMUDISM AND ISRAEL-WORSHIP.

anyone who doesn't believe that believing Israel under the NEW COVENANT REPLACED unbelieving old israel under the Old Covenant doesn't get it.

"replacement theology" taught as "heresy" is code for "anti-semitism", another weapon to turn christians away from the truth through fear of man, fear of the jews.
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