Romans 13

what kind of authority is really being discussed here?

KJV
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves condemnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Where ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

NIV
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Well, The NIV Translation emphasizes Government.

The KJV emphasizes Church Government. Christs Kingdom officials(which would be pastors, deacons...etc)

PERSONALY, I would be very cautious of a pastor that Uses Romans 13, as the basis for HIS authority. If you are a part of a Corperate Church, then You would be dissobeying God, to even challenge "A Man Of God" such as himself.

I would ALSO, be very Cautious, of a secular offical, that uses Romans 13 as the basis of his authority. ...Mainly becasue thats a Non-spirit filled man, with the ordinences of God in his hand...VERY dangerous.
(actually the pastor using romans 13 as to put himself in authority, is most likely ALSO a Non-spirit filled man)

THAT Said, I truly beleive Romans 13 is talking about Body of Christ, The Church. However, Its for the Church to Apply to themselves, not for a pastor to apply to the Church, becasue then it becomes a LAW, and it puts the pastor as a type of Christ...the Pastor is a Sheepherd, and should ALWAYS lead to Jesus. And NOT to himself.


However, Jesus ALSO said to render to Ceasar what IS Ceasars. So I dont think a Follower of Christ should be a Tax avader, Nor should we be staging Public outcries against Tyrany, and picketing...etc...Let the World handle those things...We Should be at peace in the Spirit at all times.

And thats my two cents...oops, dropped a penny...

I dont see the verses being aboiut the church clergy and pastors etc.

We're in Rome. The empire is ruling. Paul, I think, is saying...."look, its not a Christians business to go rebelling against governing authorities". Thats not our job. We should obey a governments civil laws and rules cheerfully, keeping the peace at all times with patience and humility.

Then we have the problem, what if you live in 1930's Nazi Germany? Well, I think Paul clarifies this in verses 2 & 3 where he stresses that it is God that places TRUE rulers and leaders of nations who will always do GOOD for the people and ARE good.

So basically this means if your 'leaders' are clearly doing good for the people then they are the legitamate ruling body and you should be subject to them as long as their rule never contradicts God's moral laws.

If they are doing bad, persecuting people and becoming greedy then I think a Christian can rightfully consider them to NOT be they're legitamate rulers and are therefore not subject to their evil statutes and man made laws.

Does that mean that we are a green for go with an armed takeover of the state and mass Christian rebellion? Certainly not. Politics is not our business. We continue on, being the salt and light of the Earth wherever we may be..keeping or eyes on the Kingdom.

Thats just my initial thoughts at the moment, but one thing that does bother me is why Paul would be saying this in relation to Rome (if it is secular authorities that he's on about) if Rome at the time were burning Christians!?

Was the situation really bad at the time of the writing of Romans...or only later?

Barnes

(5) there "were" cases where it was right to "resist" the laws. This the Christian religion clearly taught; and in cases like these, it was indispensable for Christians to take a stand. When the laws interfered with the rights of conscience; when they commanded the worship of idols, or any moral wrong, then it was their duty to refuse submission. Yet in what cases this was to be done, where the line was to be drawn, was a question of deep importance, and one which was not easily settled. It is quite probable, however, that the main danger was, that the early Christians would err in "refusing" submission, even when it was proper, rather than in undue conformity to idolatrous rites and ceremonies.

(6) in the "changes" which were to occur in human governments, it would be an inquiry of deep interest, what part Christians should take, and what submission they should yield to the various laws which might spring up among the nations. The "principles" on which Christians should act are settled in this chapter.

http://biblecommenter.com/romans/13-1.htm

zone wrote:what kind of authority is really being discussed here?

KJV
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves condemnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Where ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

NIV
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I see these referring to civil powers. Jesus said to pay taxes to Caesar. This
was not an endorsement of the roman empire, it Jesus letting us know to accept
what ever government is over us. To keep ourselves clean of involvement in government.
Our Kingdom was not of this world.

We are in this world not off this world.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

Adstar wrote:I see these referring to civil powers. Jesus said to pay taxes to Caesar. This
was not an endorsement of the roman empire, it Jesus letting us know to accept
what ever government is over us. To keep ourselves clean of involvement in government.
Our Kingdom was not of this world.

We are in this world not off this world.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

Agreement.