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true ?

Post by moso on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:15 pm

If you don't Sin ... Jesus died for nothing

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Re: true ?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:31 pm

Not sinning is not a possibility, so your question is illogical my muslim buddy.

Lets frame it this way:

You sin! We all do. So, Jesus died for something.

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Re: true ?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:47 pm

Another way to answer your OP is....

We are not counted as sinners in the eyes of God (found GUILTY of sin and due for the punishment) because of Jesus sacrifice.

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Re: true ?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:48 pm

Strangelove wrote:Not sinning is not a possibility, so your question is illogical my muslim buddy.

Lets frame it this way:

You sin! We all do. So, Jesus died for something.

...and resurrected...and appeared to many...and ascended...and sent another Comforter which indwells those who believe on Him.

No bones-to-dust, like all false prophets of all false religions, even Henotheistic ones.

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Re: true ?

Post by Strangelove on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:58 pm

Romans 8:2-15 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Only Jesus.

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Re: true ?

Post by moso on Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:01 pm

All glory to God

Sins are ok and accepted ... does not add up my friend as it is illogical ... believers MUST promote otherwise and must demonstrate their faith by working hard collecting good deeds and avoiding sins (as much as humanly possible) specially that we are engineered by our creator to avoid sins BUT we end up with them, said that, one of the ways out of this situation is the good deeds collected that allows forgiveness from our creator ... the more deeds collected, the more forgiveness we shall receive with a higher rank in paradise … This paradise is the place where we originally were made after God blow from his sprit into us … before we became us

By the way the word Muslim in Arabic means: fully surrender to God and Allah is the only with the ultimate power and in full control .... SO: Jesus was a Muslim.

Any true Muslim that follow the Quran must believes in the following facts:

- ONE God (God does not have a family as he do not need one)

- his angels,

- his books (Revelation of Moses , Torah, Bible and the Quran)

- his messengers (over 144,000 of them)

- The pre-determined destiny from the time of creation till the end of time (time is also a creation by God)

- and the judgment day. (The day where we will come from the dead … the day where our deeds will be questioned in detail)

Fortunately for a wisdom that our limited brains cannot see nor process, there is no one formula in faith …. Every believer is claiming that they did find the light and they are right …. So who is right? we will find out the real answer in judgment day which is not that far.

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Re: true ?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:55 am

moso wrote:All glory to God

Sins are ok and accepted ... does not add up my friend as it is illogical ... believers MUST promote otherwise and must demonstrate their faith by working hard collecting good deeds and avoiding sins (as much as humanly possible) specially that we are engineered by our creator to avoid sins BUT we end up with them, said that, one of the ways out of this situation is the good deeds collected that allows forgiveness from our creator ... the more deeds collected, the more forgiveness we shall receive with a higher rank in paradise … This paradise is the place where we originally were made after God blow from his sprit into us … before we became us

By the way the word Muslim in Arabic means: fully surrender to God and Allah is the only with the ultimate power and in full control .... SO: Jesus was a Muslim.

Any true Muslim that follow the Quran must believes in the following facts:

- ONE God (God does not have a family as he do not need one)

- his angels,

- his books (Revelation of Moses , Torah, Bible and the Quran)

- his messengers (over 144,000 of them)

- The pre-determined destiny from the time of creation till the end of time (time is also a creation by God)

- and the judgment day. (The day where we will come from the dead … the day where our deeds will be questioned in detail)

Fortunately for a wisdom that our limited brains cannot see nor process, there is no one formula in faith …. Every believer is claiming that they did find the light and they are right …. So who is right? we will find out the real answer in judgment day which is not that far.

Your Allah is the moon god of a pleroma of false gods, not the one true and living God. Allah is not God.

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Re: true ?

Post by moso on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:12 am

Good Day PneumaPsucheSoma,,

Love you and may Allah (God) put more happeniss and a stronger faith in our hearts .... simply if we are happy within we will look into the common grounds between Isalam and Christianity ...

Worth googling '99 names of allah and their meanings' ...

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Re: true ?

Post by zone on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:35 am

moso wrote:All glory to God

Sins are ok and accepted ... does not add up my friend as it is illogical ... believers MUST promote otherwise and must demonstrate their faith by working hard collecting good deeds and avoiding sins (as much as humanly possible) specially that we are engineered by our creator to avoid sins BUT we end up with them, said that, one of the ways out of this situation is the good deeds collected that allows forgiveness from our creator ... the more deeds collected, the more forgiveness we shall receive with a higher rank in paradise

moso.
islam admits man sins.

all sin is against God Himself.

sin puts man at enmity with God. sin will not go unpunished.
the punishment for sin (being in rebellion and at war with God, defying and breaking His Law) is death of the body and hell.

God can not be bribed or appeased by 'good deeds'. He doesn't need our good deeds, our neighbours need our good deeds.

God requires absolute, perfect obedience.

complete, seamless, 100% obedience to the Law. He has made it clear He will accept no man into His presence eternally without complete perfection in this life, as flesh men.

so we have a problem. a serious one.

but God is Love, and He is merciful.

and His solution to our sin problem has been accomplished by Him Alone, by the Work He came to do on our behalf.

Jesus Christ is God. He came into the world as a Man, to live a completely obedient and perfectly sinless life according to every jot and tittle of God's Law.

Having obeyed all of the Law on our behalf since we are unable, He then was obedient all the way to the altar of sacrifice, the Cross, and an agonizing death where he bore our sins, though he had none. He was punished there and bore the wrath men have coming.

it was The Great Exchange.

a Perfect Life and a Substitutionary death, in exchange for our utter worthlessness so that we may enter God's presence.

we will enter His presence and be loved and live eternally not because of anything at all we have done or will ever do, but because of what He has already done and planned to do from the beginning.

In His infinite Wisdom He devised His Plan to remain Just (by punishing sin) while at the same time being able to justify (find not guilty, aquitted of our crimes) the ungodly (that's us).

He did this by DECLARATION.

all who hear or read of Jesus Christ and know Him to be God Who has done this for and are thankful will be DECLARED righteous (though we are not).

God transfers the perfect righteousness of Jesus to our account, while blotting out our crimes (because Jesus paid the required price).

there's nothing, and no other way to be saved.

there is no other God, no thing that you can do to please God whatsoever. NOTHING.

He is ONLY pleased with those who hear and believe and LOVE Jesus Christ.
the sins of those who hear and believe and accept the free gift of justification (aquittal) are forgiven forever. those who will not, are not forgiven.

Allah is not God. there are no other gods.

Jesus is God. He has shown us Who He is, Who God is.
no one will enter God's presence (except to be sentenced to hell) without knowing God through Jesus Christ.

Jesus sets us free from slavery to working to earn salvation because it can not be earned. the price is too high and we have already failed. its received as a gift, or rejected. nothing else.
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Re: true ?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:54 am

moso wrote:believers MUST promote
otherwise and must demonstrate their faith by working hard collecting
good deeds and avoiding sins (as much as humanly possible) specially
that we are engineered by our creator to avoid sins BUT we end up with
them, said that, one of the ways out of this situation is the good deeds
collected that allows forgiveness from our creator

My friend, you WILL fail to avoid sin. It is not humanly possible. I know you agree to this. You will fall, every day. You know this. No matter how hard you try...your not good enough. Your efforts are PITIFUL. Yours and mine and everyones. There must be another way to be with God, be united with Him.

Your demonstration of faith is not collecting good deeds, that is a deception.

The demonstration is to accept the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is God.

Work over.

(Deuteronomy 27:1) And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day.

(Deuteronomy 27:26) Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

We are ALL cursed if we stand on the LAW.

CURSED! Because we are sinners. Try and keep the law and you are AUTOMATICALLY cursed. This is the lesson of the law.

Amen?

Now do you want to be bound and cursed.........or free and saved?

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Re: true ?

Post by zone on Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:17 pm

moso wrote:
Any true Muslim that follow the Quran must believes in the following facts:

- his books (Revelation of Moses , Torah, Bible and the Quran)

hi moso.
Doc has told you the truth.

in your post, you have rightly said what Islam requires muslims to believe. but if you do believe the Bible, you can not believe in ANYTHING but what Doc has shown you - that the Law shows us we are condemned, the Law was given for 3 reasons we could say.

1) to show us what God requires in order to please Him and gain eternal life through obedience


2) to show us the right way to order society


3) to show us how to keep striving to do what is good and right (Proverbs, the epistles etc) The New Testament instructions for Christian life.



#2 is what keeps order in our society though we fail dismally every second of the day to obey the Law, it still provides a foundation for a righteous society. we fail, but we still need it. this is a Lawful use of the Law, but following it to order society can NEVER bring us to eternal life. The Law can not save us eternally.

#3 is really only for Christians, since only those who believe in Jesus and have been sealed by the Holy Spirit have been brought to spiritual life and power enough to do what you have called good works. this is our efforts to love our neighbours. that's not to say that non-Christians do not do good deeds. they do. but for the wrong reasons - to earn God's favor. this again brings a curse.

(even our faith is given by God moso...just go humbly to the gospel of John and ask Him to show you. He will...the holy Spirit does all the teaching. He convicts you in your conscience that you are a sinner condemned to hell, and He convinces you that Jesus Christ has purchased your freedom and eternal life - A GIFT).

this 3rd use of the Law is also Lawful in that it is our guide to righteous living and what God says are good things to do and bad things to not do. but following the Law and the commandments in this way, trying to and striving to do what is right can NEVER bring us to eternal life. the Law can NOT save us. it guides us in this world, but ultimately condemns us for the next since we fail. EVERY DAY.


BUT:


#1 is IMPOSSIBLE for us to accomplish since even ONE SIN brings death and hell. and we have all sinned and continue to sin.

so using the Law as a means to please God so He will accept us and give eternal life is an ILLEGAL use of The Law. it brings the curse.



so, The Law is Holy and Good.
but we are not. the Law does not provide any way to God unless we obey it perfectly from birth to death. FULLY. this is not possible. The Law was most importantly given for JESUS TO COME AND OBEY PERFECTLY. without this accomplishment, there are no grounds for God to justify anyone.

and you must also believe what the Bible says here - good deeds will not be accepted as a way to eternal life. God Himself will receive all the Glory. man will go empty-handed, Jesus is exhalted only. never us.:

Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ


1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful naturea and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



so you see that you have a conflict in what islam says you must believe:

moso wrote:
Any true Muslim that follow the Quran must believes in the following facts:

- his books (Revelation of Moses , Torah, Bible and the Quran)

if you believe the bible, you must believe ALL of it.

love zone.


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Re: true ?

Post by zone on Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:30 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Amen?

Now do you want to be bound and cursed.........or free and saved?

amen Doc.Surprised

moso: this is a clear explanation of our predicament concerning The Law, and the Glory of God's solution, His free gift that Jesus won for us.

remember that islam requires you to believe the Bible.

the jews did not accept God's Plan either, and they continue to try to earn God's favor through the Law, and they, like the rest of mankind are, as Doc said, AUTOMATICALLY cursed. eternally.

they think they know God but Jesus is the full expression of God to mankind - rejecting Jesus proves one doesn't know God at all. they have believed in a false deity.

The Law has the curse built in for all who fail to obey perfectly. that's you and me and every other human who ever lived except JESUS.

Galatians 3
The Law and Faith in Christ


1Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. 2Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4Have you experienceda so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”b 7The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

8What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”c 9So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

10But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”d 11So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”e 12This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”f

13But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”g 14Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promisedh Holy Spirit through faith.

The Law and God’s Promise


15Dear brothers and sisters,i here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. 16God gave the promises to Abraham and his child.j And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,k” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ. 17This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise. 18 For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

19Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

21Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?l Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

God’s Children through Faith

23Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

26For you are all childrenm of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.n 28There is no longer Jew or Gentile,o slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true childrenp of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.


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Re: true ?

Post by moso on Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:58 pm

What a wonderful response from my follow humans who cares for others ... this is what a good relign should promote....love, forgevness and care ... in Islam it is the same and demonstrated in good deeds which is an effort to work hard to improve life (now and after for all) by Hate the sin not the sinner .

based on statistics, more people are converted to Islam, I'm sure who ever decide to convert, he/she must done an extensive research and then decide to take the best (and ignore the media) .. they reach the fact that simply no one needs a proxy to connect with his creator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

Love you all

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Re: true ?

Post by zone on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:08 pm

moso wrote:What a wonderful response from my follow humans who cares for others ... this is what a good relign should promote....love, forgevness and care ... in Islam it is the same and demonstrated in good deeds which is an effort to work hard to improve life (now and after for all) by Hate the sin not the sinner .

based on statistics, more people are converted to Islam, I'm sure who ever decide to convert, he/she must done an extensive research and then decide to take the best (and ignore the media) .. they reach the fact that simply no one needs a proxy to connect with his creator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

Love you all

hi moso.
yes, islam is rapidly growing.
man has discovered after the brutualizing of communism etc that he is a created being after all, and he is seeking for God. but size and growth of a movement do not mean anything at all.

i do care for you, and respect any people who are trying to live a better way than what we have degraded to in the west (this was done by design).

but there is a fatal flaw in your reasoning:

moso wrote:
based on statistics, more people are converted to Islam, I'm sure who ever decide to convert, he/she must done an extensive research and then decide to take the best (and ignore the media) .. they reach the fact that simply no one needs a proxy to connect with his creator.

Love you all

we have Jesus described as the Mediator between God and man. and He is.
if you understand the Mosaic sacrifical system (which was given to teach about the coming once for all sacrifice), you will know what this means.

let's look again at your comment:

they reach the fact that simply no one needs a proxy to connect with his creator.

moso: Jesus is the Creator.

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

love you too.
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Re: true ?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:29 pm

Moso,

Do you have to believe in the God of the Torah to be saved?

Or can a really really really well behaved atheist or Hindu get to heaven too?

...if they do lots and lots of good works?

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