Hello

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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:22 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Ok so, Jesus coming down as an apparition is obviously not good enough cuz it could be a hologram or you got spiked with acid. So you qualify it with "sufficiently knowledgeable, and I could confirm the information"
.

Right it could be a trick, or a hallucination, but I'm assuming in my scenario that anyone can see him to, he comes to have breakfast with me, but anyone could come and see him assuming i invite them over. I guess a better evidence would be if Jesus came and had breakfast with everyone everyday simultaneously (depending on timezones and stuff of course)


Strangelove wrote:
What knowledge?

And how would you confirm it?

Give us an example would you my new found buddy?

Ummm, you know stuff about the universe that I dont know but could confirm, locations of things and explanations about human nature and science that could be confirmed. Information about me, and about other people that i might not know, but could find out. Things about the past, and the future. maybe some mind reading. that kind of stuff oh yeah and some healing too, maybe raising some people from the dead, growing limbs , all that jazz..

oscarkipling wrote:
Define 'biblical apocolypse please.

an apocalypse that occurs as described in revelations.
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Re: Hello

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:05 am

Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe.

Oida knowledge doesn't require observation or personal participation by experience. But then, one would have to understand what oida is as the inate, inherent, intrinsic knowledge by communion of the human spirit with God's Spirit.

Oida knowledge is specifically non-empirical and unobservable. It's much more substantial than supposedly superior empiricism. Most believers don't even really have a modest practical understanding of what I'm referring to.

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Re: Hello

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:49 am

oscarkipling wrote:

Right it could be a trick, or a hallucination, but I'm assuming in my scenario that anyone can see him to, he comes to have breakfast with me, but anyone could come and see him assuming i invite them over. I guess a better evidence would be if Jesus came and had breakfast with everyone everyday simultaneously (depending on timezones and stuff of course)




Ummm, you know stuff about the universe that I dont know but could confirm, locations of things and explanations about human nature and science that could be confirmed. Information about me, and about other people that i might not know, but could find out. Things about the past, and the future. maybe some mind reading. that kind of stuff oh yeah and some healing too, maybe raising some people from the dead, growing limbs , all that jazz..



an apocalypse that occurs as described in revelations.

This sounds reasonable to many, but it isn't. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT seen." "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." "For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith...". "For we walk by faith, and NOT by sight."

The one transcendent God embodied the divine essence and identity of Himself in the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The unobservable, unexperiencable, intangible, uncreated God made it possible for His objective reality to be observed, experienced, and tangible in immanent creation; the objective made subjectively "real"... the "real"-ization of God to mankind. And His Spirit was distributed individually to indwell all those who believe by faith.

"Those who come to Him must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

I'm looking for the privilege of dining at His table rather than requiring Him to come and dine at mine. He's God and I'm not. I choose to meet His demands rather than impose my own demands upon Him.

The heavens declare the glory of God. Praise ye the name of the Lord!

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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:15 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe.

Oida knowledge doesn't require observation or personal participation by experience. But then, one would have to understand what oida is as the inate, inherent, intrinsic knowledge by communion of the human spirit with God's Spirit.

Oida knowledge is specifically non-empirical and unobservable. It's much more substantial than supposedly superior empiricism. Most believers don't even really have a modest practical understanding of what I'm referring to.

I have a passing familiarity with the concept, but I dont necessarily believe that its a real thing.
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:19 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:

This sounds reasonable to many, but it isn't. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT seen." "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." "For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith...". "For we walk by faith, and NOT by sight."

The one transcendent God embodied the divine essence and identity of Himself in the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The unobservable, unexperiencable, intangible, uncreated God made it possible for His objective reality to be observed, experienced, and tangible in immanent creation; the objective made subjectively "real"... the "real"-ization of God to mankind. And His Spirit was distributed individually to indwell all those who believe by faith.

"Those who come to Him must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

I'm looking for the privilege of dining at His table rather than requiring Him to come and dine at mine. He's God and I'm not. I choose to meet His demands rather than impose my own demands upon Him.

The heavens declare the glory of God. Praise ye the name of the Lord!


yeah I get that, i was just answering a question though. What it would take for me to believe.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:36 pm

oscarkipling wrote:

yeah I get that, i was just answering a question though. What it would take for me to believe.

well oscar if you've been reading the bible, and the Holy Spirit has not convicted you of your status as hellbound sinner, and convinced you that Christ died to keep you from that fate, i'm a little concerned.

the preaching (or reading) of the Word is the means by which the Spirit imparts faith, through which we believe and are sealed and taught and saved (all work of God).

He says if we humbly and sincerely seek Him we WILL find Him...and we do.

but He also uses the preaching of the word to judge people...to harden their already hard hearts (men who refuse to admit they are sinners or bend the knee to His words).

not saying that's happening to you, but not feeling stirred or experiencing the very real enlightment and presence of the Spirit through the Word means either you're not sincerely seeking but are approaching it as a skeptic or scoffer....in which case he does not necessarily move to show that one anything. He's certainly not obligated to do so. He graciously reveals Himself to those who sincerely seek.

reading sincerely, seeking humbly should and will bring one to repentence and sorrow over their lives and prior attitudes of unbelief.

all the rest follows that - JOY when that one sees God has provided a way past death to eternal life....the experience of having been given a new heart, a changed life and faith...saving faith...the kind that opens up the truth of the scriptures and reveals the reality we live in etc...peace with God, assurance of all the promises, and so on...a desire to be baptised and seek out other christians....all these are works of the Lord through the vehicle, or means or method he's chosen - faith.

this kind of faith is God-given, it's not a blind acceptance of something, or a work of our own will.

~

perhaps praying and seeking humbly...going back to the scriptures and reading again.
listening to some good sermons.

otherwise i don't know what to say.

i'll pray for you if you want me to.
zone.
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Re: Hello

Post by Strangelove on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:22 pm

oscarkipling wrote:Right it could be a trick, or a hallucination, but I'm assuming in my
scenario that anyone can see him to, he comes to have breakfast with me,
but anyone could come and see him assuming i invite them over. I guess a
better evidence would be if Jesus came and had breakfast with everyone
everyday simultaneously (depending on timezones and stuff of course)

Ok but with todays technology, all of that can be easily faked.

oscarkipling wrote:Ummm, you know stuff about the universe that I dont know but could
confirm, locations of things and explanations about human nature and
science that could be confirmed.

How could you confirm it oscar. If only God can tell you these things how are you gonna crosscheck to see if its true?

oscarkipling wrote:
Information about me, and about other
people that i might not know, but could find out. Things about the past,
and the future.

So if Jesus acted like a CIA agent basically ya? Then you would be convinced He's God?

oscarkipling wrote:
maybe some mind reading. that kind of stuff oh yeah and
some healing too, maybe raising some people from the dead, growing
limbs , all that jazz..

All that jazz can be easily faked also oscar. Penn and Teller and David Copperfield do it all the time.

oscarkipling wrote:an apocalypse that occurs as described in revelations.

I'm going to give you the correct interpretation of the bibles end of the age oscar.

Here it comes....


ready....?....?


Jesus comes back and burns the entire lot up instantly.


Thats it.


Now tell me how your apocalypse as described in Revelation differs from my interpretation please.


Last edited by Strangelove on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:50 pm

Strangelove wrote:So if Jesus acted like a CIA agent basically ya? Then you would be convinced He's God?

lol!
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:55 pm

zone wrote:

well oscar if you've been reading the bible, and the Holy Spirit has not convicted you of your status as hellbound sinner, and convinced you that Christ died to keep you from that fate, i'm a little concerned.

the preaching (or reading) of the Word is the means by which the Spirit imparts faith, through which we believe and are sealed and taught and saved (all work of God).

He says if we humbly and sincerely seek Him we WILL find Him...and we do.

but He also uses the preaching of the word to judge people...to harden their already hard hearts (men who refuse to admit they are sinners or bend the knee to His words).

not saying that's happening to you, but not feeling stirred or experiencing the very real enlightment and presence of the Spirit through the Word means either you're not sincerely seeking but are approaching it as a skeptic or scoffer....in which case he does not necessarily move to show that one anything. He's certainly not obligated to do so. He graciously reveals Himself to those who sincerely seek.

reading sincerely, seeking humbly should and will bring one to repentence and sorrow over their lives and prior attitudes of unbelief.

all the rest follows that - JOY when that one sees God has provided a way past death to eternal life....the experience of having been given a new heart, a changed life and faith...saving faith...the kind that opens up the truth of the scriptures and reveals the reality we live in etc...peace with God, assurance of all the promises, and so on...a desire to be baptised and seek out other christians....all these are works of the Lord through the vehicle, or means or method he's chosen - faith.

this kind of faith is God-given, it's not a blind acceptance of something, or a work of our own will.

~

perhaps praying and seeking humbly...going back to the scriptures and reading again.
listening to some good sermons.

otherwise i don't know what to say.

i'll pray for you if you want me to.
zone.

I dont know what to say ether, but thank you for those insights.
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:14 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Ok but with todays technology, all of that can be easily faked.

on this point we probably disagree

Strangelove wrote:
How could you confirm it oscar. If only God can tell you these things how are you gonna crosscheck to see if its true?

If god told me how to build a time machine or something, i'd build a time machine. Or if he told me how to make the perfect cheese steak sub, I'd make the perfect cheese steak sub. If god told me how to unify field equations, i'd do that, and it would work, because he's god.



Strangelove wrote:
So if Jesus acted like a CIA agent basically ya? Then you would be convinced He's God?

I'm convinced that there are some things that the CIA doesn't know about me that God would.


Strangelove wrote:
All that jazz can be easily faked also oscar. Penn and Teller and David Copperfield do it all the time.

they have a trick where they raise my long dead relatives and grow my grandmother's amputated foot back? I'd very much like to see that.



oscarkipling wrote:

I'm going to give you the correct interpretation of the bibles end of the age oscar.

Here it comes....


ready....?....?


Jesus comes back and burns the entire lot up instantly.


Thats it.

I suppose as I fry i'd think to myself "oops"

oscarkipling wrote:
Now tell me how your apocalypse as described in Revelation differs from your interpretation please.

well, I thought there would be trumpets, horses and horsemen, the sun goes out, the moon goes bloody, fiery mountains fall from the sky killing fish and ships, angels smashing up the place, earthquakes, the stars fall from the sky somehow poisoning the water.....that kind of stuff.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:23 pm

zone wrote:
He's certainly not obligated to do so. He graciously reveals Himself to those who sincerely seek.

reading sincerely, seeking humbly should and will bring one to repentence and sorrow over their lives and prior attitudes of unbelief.

all the rest follows that - JOY when that one sees God has provided a way past death to eternal life....the experience of having been given a new heart, a changed life and faith...saving faith...the kind that opens up the truth of the scriptures and reveals the reality we live in etc...peace with God, assurance of all the promises, and so on...a desire to be baptised and seek out other christians....all these are works of the Lord through the vehicle, or means or method he's chosen - faith.

this kind of faith is God-given, it's not a blind acceptance of something, or a work of our own will.

zone.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

http://esv.scripturetext.com/ephesians/2.htm

...

i'll pray for you oscar.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:25 pm

oscarkipling wrote:


If god told me how to build a time machine or something, i'd build a time machine. Or if he told me how to make the perfect cheese steak sub, I'd make the perfect cheese steak sub. If god told me how to unify field equations, i'd do that, and it would work, because he's god.

no...even if He did tell you to do those things you wouldn't do them. you'd still doubt. your current doubt is proof.

He gave us a few simple commandments. and we don't do them.

we've all failed.

now what?

He said He made Himself known in His creation - its order and the fact that it could only have been created. so those who say there is no God are without excuse. they chose to think they were wise. and loved the created things (astronomy etc) more than the Creator...He doesn't like that.

would you?

Romans 1
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,e as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”f

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

http://esv.scripturetext.com/romans/1.htm

...
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:38 pm

oscarkipling wrote:
I suppose as I fry i'd think to myself "oops".

this is a parable. not a description of 'hell next to heaven': the point is unbelief and what "oops" will really be like.

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

http://esv.scripturetext.com/luke/16.htm

...
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Re: Hello

Post by Strangelove on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:23 pm

oscarkipling wrote:on this point we probably disagree

Project bluebeam.

Serge Monast: Project Bluebeam

Fake UFO Over Jerusalem? Project Bluebeam?

oscarkipling wrote:If god told me how to build a time machine or something, i'd build a
time machine. Or if he told me how to make the perfect cheese steak sub,
I'd make the perfect cheese steak sub. If god told me how to unify
field equations, i'd do that, and it would work, because he's god.

Oscar, I ask you this in all seriousness, and I would appreciate an honest answer.

Do you really think that these silly methods that you mention are the kind of ways that God would employ to reveal himself to people? Honestly?

oscarkipling wrote:I'm convinced that there are some things that the CIA doesn't know about me that God would.

So God reveals Himself by being a fancy clairvoyant? See above.

oscarkipling wrote:they have a trick where they raise my long dead relatives and grow my
grandmother's amputated foot back? I'd very much like to see that.

Project bluebeam. They can fake anything. Even the second coming.

oscarkipling wrote:I suppose as I fry i'd think to myself "oops"

Thats exactly what'll happen. Theres time though. Not much but some.

oscarkipling wrote:well, I thought there would be trumpets, horses and horsemen, the sun
goes out, the moon goes bloody, fiery mountains fall from the sky
killing fish and ships, angels smashing up the place, earthquakes, the
stars fall from the sky somehow poisoning the water.....that kind of
stuff.

Are you aware that Revelation is a hugely metaphorical book oscar?

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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:56 pm


Of all the things I've read about project blubeam I've seen plenty of assertions, and very little to back it up. I think that while there is surely some technology that is unknown to the public, I dont think its possible to do what this guy is suggesting, not yet at least, and not in a manner that would withstand scrutiny.



Strangelove wrote:
Oscar, I ask you this in all seriousness, and I would appreciate an honest answer.

Do you really think that these silly methods that you mention are the kind of ways that God would employ to reveal himself to people? Honestly?

I've been told on multiple occasions that God wouldn't do this for some reason or another, but I was answering a question about what would be convincing to me. So its not like I dont understand that according to most God wouldn't do it, these are simply things (or things along these lines) that I would find compelling.

Strangelove wrote:
So God reveals Himself by being a fancy clairvoyant? See above.

Yes, I would take a display of clairvoyance to be evidence of supernatural abilities at this time. As i said before bluebeam proponents seem to assert alot about what technology can do, but are very light on the rigorous explanations on how. Now i don think that its unthinkable that some technology might exist that could read minds , honestly there is technology that does do it in a rudimentary way, but they dont do it remotely and the principles upon which it works makes the mechanism used impossible remotely with any current or future technology that I'm aware of.



Strangelove wrote:
Project bluebeam. They can fake anything. Even the second coming.

i mean, what can i say, i dont believe that.


Strangelove wrote:
Thats exactly what'll happen. Theres time though. Not much but some.

fair enough, obviously I dont believe this, but I conceed that its possible i suppose.


Strangelove wrote:
Are you aware that Revelation is a hugely metaphorical book oscar?

All depends on who you ask i suppose, personally i dont believe it describes any reality at all, metaphorical or not, but even as metaphor it would seem that the biblical apocalypse or Escaton, will be a process with multiple steps.
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Re: Hello

Post by Strangelove on Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:52 pm

oscarkipling wrote:Of all the things I've read about project blubeam I've seen plenty of
assertions, and very little to back it up. I think that while there is
surely some technology that is unknown to the public, I dont think its
possible to do what this guy is suggesting, not yet at least, and not in
a manner that would withstand scrutiny.

Its simply a matter of putting a hologram in the sky. You dont think they can do that? Really?

oscarkipling wrote:I've been told on multiple occasions that God wouldn't do this for some
reason or another, but I was answering a question about what would be
convincing to me. So its not like I dont understand that according to
most God wouldn't do it
, these are simply things (or things along these
lines) that I would find compelling.

I'm asking YOU oscar. Not most people....YOU.

Do you think that God would do it like that?

oscarkipling wrote:Yes, I would take a display of clairvoyance to be evidence of supernatural abilities at this time.

Again...you have dodged the real question. WOULD God reveal himself like that? What do you think buddy? Is He a carnival showman? really?

oscarkipling wrote:As i said before bluebeam proponents seem to assert alot about what
technology can do, but are very light on the rigorous explanations on
how. Now i don think that its unthinkable that some technology might
exist that could read minds , honestly there is technology that does do
it in a rudimentary way, but they dont do it remotely and the principles
upon which it works makes the mechanism used impossible remotely with
any current or future technology that I'm aware of.

Huh? Do some bluebeam proponents claim that it can read minds? I never said that was a use for it.

oscarkipling wrote:i mean, what can i say, i dont believe that.

Oh they bank on you not believing that. You are ripe for the picking.

oscarkipling wrote:fair enough, obviously I dont believe this, but I conceed that its possible i suppose.

If its possible then why take the risk?

oscarkipling wrote:All depends on who you ask i suppose, personally i dont believe it
describes any reality at all, metaphorical or not, but even as metaphor
it would seem that the biblical apocalypse or Escaton, will be a process
with multiple steps.

Give us the steps then friend. Nice little bullet points if you would.

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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:51 am

Strangelove wrote:

Its simply a matter of putting a hologram in the sky. You dont think they can do that? Really?

a realistic 3d hologram,no. I could personally project an image onto some clouds, but would it be something that could fool any normal person...nope. Could the government project a much better image, sure, but I doubt that it would withstand scrutiny. Would it trick some people, sure, but most people, I highly doubt it.

Strangelove wrote:
I'm asking YOU oscar. Not most people....YOU.

Do you think that God would do it like that?

I dont believe that God actually exists, so obviously not, can I imagine a God that would, certainly.



Strangelove wrote:
Again...you have dodged the real question. WOULD God reveal himself like that? What do you think buddy? Is He a carnival showman? really?

According to the bible he's done many signs and wonders, so I figure why not for me? Just as a general God that i imagine, yes, I would think there could be a highly interactive God that does come down and obviously interact with his creation.



Strangelove wrote:
Huh? Do some bluebeam proponents claim that it can read minds? I never said that was a use for it.

yes, some do, i watched a bunch of youtube vids, and read some sites, there are tonnes of claims about what bluebeam can and will do.



Strangelove wrote:
Oh they bank on you not believing that. You are ripe for the picking.

fair enough.



Strangelove wrote:
If its possible then why take the risk?


Well, because i dont actually believe that its true. Its not like i can just pretend to believe because I'm afraid of the possibility that maybe i'll fry. God would know that i was just pretending , and fry me anyway.



Strangelove wrote:
Give us the steps then friend. Nice little bullet points if you would.

just read the outline on the wiki page, those are the steps, i'd rather not bother reproducing them here.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:06 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Its simply a matter of putting a hologram in the sky. You dont think they can do that? Really?
oscarkipling wrote:
a realistic 3d hologram,no. I could personally project an image onto some clouds, but would it be something that could fool any normal person...nope. Could the government project a much better image, sure, but I doubt that it would withstand scrutiny. Would it trick some people, sure, but most people, I highly doubt it.

well, considering the technology TPTB have is beyond the stuff they dole out to the masses...these holographic projections are quite advanced, would you agree?

any image even of this quality projected ontothe barium/aluminum 'screen' in our skies (chemtrails) would decive billions...isn't that something that could be reasonably assumed?







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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:34 pm

zone wrote:
well, considering the technology TPTB have is beyond the stuff they dole out to the masses...these holographic projections are quite advanced, would you agree?

I mean yeah those are all neat, but they are all essentially based on lcd/dlp projectors. The most interesting part about the stereoscopic projectors is the modeling and calculating of the projection surface beforehand that allow them you create the illusion of depth. however you might notice that these are almost always shot face on because too high angle of incidence (which is really maybe a few degrees of optimal viewing) and the illusion is immediately lost. coincidentally, this is one of the reasons that a projection in the sky would easily fool some people in optimal spots, but anyone not right in the sweet spots would find the image pretty flat. Now if you are suggesting that there are actual volumetric projections created for the project, then this technology is really not that. Again, i see people asserting that the technology is there, but then they produce video's like this which are not suitable for they type of endevour that you are talking about. Even the light source required would be an engineering feat, not to mention something that bright would be an obvious projection because anyone would be able to see the light source, and probably the light cone as it shines through the upper atmosphere.


zone wrote:
any image even of this quality projected ontothe barium/aluminum 'screen' in our skies (chemtrails) would decive billions...isn't that something that could be reasonably assumed?

Idk, maybe, but anyone who has ever seen a movie projector before would be impressed I'm sure, but I wouldn't say they would be deceived. also, i keep reading about barium, and sodium and aluminum, what is the purpose of this, and how are these things supposed to help with image quality.....see if i were going to attempt to project an image in the sky that everyone could see, I wouldn't bother with that, for one you will never get the altitude would need, it would precipitate out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and it would be an obvious surface....but anyway, no I dont think that an image of that quality would trick a significant amount of people, given that those all just use projectors that would be fairly obvious at the kinds of scales you are talking about. Actually i take that back, probably alot of people in the undeveloped world.
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Re: Hello

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:33 pm

oscarkipling wrote:a realistic 3d hologram,no. I could personally project an image onto some clouds, but would it be something that could fool any normal person...nope. Could the government project a much better image, sure, but I doubt that it would withstand scrutiny. Would it trick some people, sure, but most people, I highly doubt it.

Would starvation, sickness, global panic and mind altering drugs affect ones ability to scrutinize a 3d hologram?

Would these other factors greatly increase the percentage of those tricked?

oscarkipling wrote:can I imagine a God that would, certainly.

Scripture has told us the plan for our faith. There is no signs and wonders any more. I urge you to go back to scripture with an open heart....to see how it works now.

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

The sign has been given. The ressurection of the Lord Jesus. Read the testimonies oscar. This is how you will know God.

oscarkipling wrote:According to the bible he's done many signs and wonders, so I figure why not for me? Just as a general God that i imagine, yes, I would think there could be a highly interactive God that does come down and obviously interact with his creation.

See above verse. Thats not the way it works since Jesus was raised up.

oscarkipling wrote:yes, some do, i watched a bunch of youtube vids, and read some sites, there are tonnes of claims about what bluebeam can and will do.

Are you debating the internet or debating us here on the forum?

oscarkipling wrote:Well, because i dont actually believe that its true. Its not like i can just pretend to believe because I'm afraid of the possibility that maybe i'll fry. God would know that i was just pretending , and fry me anyway.

I know mate. It's fine. Only the scriptures can convict you.

I was trying to illogically plead with you to get right with God. Scare tactics. Silly of me.

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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:02 pm

oscarkipling wrote:Idk, maybe, but anyone who has ever seen a movie projector before would be impressed I'm sure, but I wouldn't say they would be deceived. also, i keep reading about barium, and sodium and aluminum, what is the purpose of this, and how are these things supposed to help with image quality.....see if i were going to attempt to project an image in the sky that everyone could see, I wouldn't bother with that, for one you will never get the altitude would need, it would precipitate out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and it would be an obvious surface....but anyway, no I dont think that an image of that quality would trick a significant amount of people, given that those all just use projectors that would be fairly obvious at the kinds of scales you are talking about. Actually i take that back, probably alot of people in the undeveloped world.

oscar.

the masses believe 9-11 was done by muslims and the boogey-man bin laden was killed this year and buried at sea:shock:

what does that tell you?



Halfway through Building 7's 6.5-second plunge, streamers suggestive of demolition charges emerged from the facade.



9-11 was an inside job and accomplished EXACTLY what it was intended to do: deceive the people into thinking they needed to lose their constitution and fight a 'war on terror'.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. and even more than a decade later with the TRUTH in plain sight, the agenda continues. so please don't play cutsie with us.









re: third worlders:

'Ghost city' descends upon China


Residents in the eastern Chinese city of Huanshan thought they were seeing things when an enormous mirage appeared on the skyline like a second ‘ghost city’.

The mirage occurred earlier in the month following heavy rainfall and humid conditions along in the Xin’an River.

The mirage created the illusion that buildings, tall trees and mountains were rising into the sky, in a location where there is usually nothing visible on the horizon except open sky.

Some locals have speculated that the mysterious city on the skyline could be a ‘vortex’ to a lost civilisation.

"It's really amazing, it looks like a scene in a movie, in a fairlyland," one resident told UK news channel ITN.

A mirage is an optical illusion in which distant objects are reflected by a layer of hot air just above ground level.

Mirages occur naturally when moisture in the air rises above the temperature of water below.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8265845/ghost-city-descends-upon-china

...


Last edited by zone on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:29 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:03 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Would starvation, sickness, global panic and mind altering drugs affect ones ability to scrutinize a 3d hologram?

Would these other factors greatly increase the percentage of those tricked?

Scripture has told us the plan for our faith. There is no signs and wonders any more. I urge you to go back to scripture with an open heart....to see how it works now.

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

The sign has been given. The ressurection of the Lord Jesus. Read the testimonies oscar. This is how you will know God.

I know mate. It's fine. Only the scriptures can convict you.

I was trying to illogically plead with you to get right with God. Scare tactics. Silly of me.

excellent post Doc.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:06 pm

oscarkipling wrote:
I mean yeah those are all neat, but they are all essentially based on lcd/dlp projectors. The most interesting part about the stereoscopic projectors is the modeling and calculating of the projection surface beforehand that allow them you create the illusion of depth. however you might notice that these are almost always shot face on because too high angle of incidence (which is really maybe a few degrees of optimal viewing) and the illusion is immediately lost. coincidentally, this is one of the reasons that a projection in the sky would easily fool some people in optimal spots, but anyone not right in the sweet spots would find the image pretty flat. Now if you are suggesting that there are actual volumetric projections created for the project, then this technology is really not that. Again, i see people asserting that the technology is there, but then they produce video's like this which are not suitable for they type of endevour that you are talking about. Even the light source required would be an engineering feat, not to mention something that bright would be an obvious projection because anyone would be able to see the light source, and probably the light cone as it shines through the upper atmosphere.




Idk, maybe, but anyone who has ever seen a movie projector before would be impressed I'm sure, but I wouldn't say they would be deceived. also, i keep reading about barium, and sodium and aluminum, what is the purpose of this, and how are these things supposed to help with image quality.....see if i were going to attempt to project an image in the sky that everyone could see, I wouldn't bother with that, for one you will never get the altitude would need, it would precipitate out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, and it would be an obvious surface....but anyway, no I dont think that an image of that quality would trick a significant amount of people, given that those all just use projectors that would be fairly obvious at the kinds of scales you are talking about. Actually i take that back, probably alot of people in the undeveloped world.

oscar....scripture declares (in more than one place) that God Himself sends a strong delusion onto those who rejected His gracious gift to receive the Truth of Jesus...they appear to then be subject only to deception, to believing "a lie".

this is not something we wish for you. or anyone for that matter. salvation is open to all men - if they will humble themselves and sincerely seek Christ, He said they would find Him.

i hope you do.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:01 am

Strangelove wrote:

Would starvation, sickness, global panic and mind altering drugs affect ones ability to scrutinize a 3d hologram?

Would these other factors greatly increase the percentage of those tricked?

sure, I imagine those things would make it harder to pick up on an illusion.



Strangelove wrote:

Scripture has told us the plan for our faith. There is no signs and wonders any more. I urge you to go back to scripture with an open heart....to see how it works now.

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

The sign has been given. The ressurection of the Lord Jesus. Read the testimonies oscar. This is how you will know God.

people are constantly telling me to open my heart and then read...I dont really know what that means. I've read the gospels, but simply because it says that something amazing happened doesn't mean that its believable. I've read parts of the Koran and the bhagavad gita and i dont believe their claims either. Its true there is a built in evidence seeking deterrent in the bible, but i dont know why i should believe that because it says its better to not have any evidence and believe that its actually better to believe things without evidence..

Strangelove wrote:
See above verse. Thats not the way it works since Jesus was raised up.
yep, i guess so.

Strangelove wrote:
Are you debating the internet or debating us here on the forum?

Well, honestly i dont know. I guess in the future I'll only go by what you guys claim here.


Strangelove wrote:

I know mate. It's fine. Only the scriptures can convict you.

I was trying to illogically plead with you to get right with God. Scare tactics. Silly of me.

np
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:07 am

zone wrote:

oscar.

the masses believe 9-11 was done by muslims and the boogey-man bin laden was killed this year and buried at sea:shock:

what does that tell you?



Halfway through Building 7's 6.5-second plunge, streamers suggestive of demolition charges emerged from the facade.



9-11 was an inside job and accomplished EXACTLY what it was intended to do: deceive the people into thinking they needed to lose their constitution and fight a 'war on terror'.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. and even more than a decade later with the TRUTH in plain sight, the agenda continues. so please don't play cutsie with us.









re: third worlders:

'Ghost city' descends upon China


Residents in the eastern Chinese city of Huanshan thought they were seeing things when an enormous mirage appeared on the skyline like a second ‘ghost city’.

The mirage occurred earlier in the month following heavy rainfall and humid conditions along in the Xin’an River.

The mirage created the illusion that buildings, tall trees and mountains were rising into the sky, in a location where there is usually nothing visible on the horizon except open sky.

Some locals have speculated that the mysterious city on the skyline could be a ‘vortex’ to a lost civilisation.

"It's really amazing, it looks like a scene in a movie, in a fairlyland," one resident told UK news channel ITN.

A mirage is an optical illusion in which distant objects are reflected by a layer of hot air just above ground level.

Mirages occur naturally when moisture in the air rises above the temperature of water below.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8265845/ghost-city-descends-upon-china

...



Some locals have speculated that the mysterious city on the skyline could be a ‘vortex’ to a lost civilisation.

it doesnt say most or even all the locals. anyway, fine if 911 was a hoax, an inside job or whatever, then it was a well orchestrated and complex one. I think if it is a conspiracy by the masons or illuminati or whoever then the cleverest thing they did was to make the truth so absurd and tortured that believing it is the less reasonable than believing the lie.
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 am

zone wrote:

oscar....scripture declares (in more than one place) that God Himself sends a strong delusion onto those who rejected His gracious gift to receive the Truth of Jesus...they appear to then be subject only to deception, to believing "a lie".

this is not something we wish for you. or anyone for that matter. salvation is open to all men - if they will humble themselves and sincerely seek Christ, He said they would find Him.

i hope you do.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

its pretty confounding that God would bother sending down delusions, I feel like people can make their own delusions. Anyway yeah this is one of those things that makes me consider the possibility that even if i did meet god and come to believe in his existence that its possible that i might not like him.
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:01 am

oscarkipling wrote:
it doesnt say most or even all the locals. anyway, fine if 911 was a hoax, an inside job or whatever, then it was a well orchestrated and complex one. I think if it is a conspiracy by the masons or illuminati or whoever then the cleverest thing they did was to make the truth so absurd and tortured that believing it is the less reasonable than believing the lie.
oh puleeze.
it was a sloppy disaster. shock & awe.
there's a sucker born every minute.
the bad guys know what trauma does.

tell me: is Tupac dead or alive?

Tupac Hologram "Performs" With Snoop Dogg at Coachella 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoTwer_b9_Y

anyway. this is a spiritual war.
we have 2 options regarding oscar

1) he chooses not to believe its a spiritual war and so doesn't understand WHY such deception would happen
2) he knows its a spiritual war and is on the side doing the deceiving.

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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:08 am

oscarkipling wrote:

its pretty confounding that God would bother sending down delusions, I feel like people can make their own delusions. Anyway yeah this is one of those things that makes me consider the possibility that even if i did meet god and come to believe in his existence that its possible that i might not like him.
you don't like Him now.
in fact you hate Him. and are at war (enmity) with Him.
refusing to retain knowledge of Him even though He has made Himself known....no, primordial soup and a big bang are easier on a sinner's conscience.

no God to answer to.

too bad they won't listen and find out He is LOVE as well as JUSTICE.
that He is Merciful and has made a way to justify the ungodly.

no, they will either go to their graves hating Him....or trying to earn His favor.

~

are you a sinner oscar?

a completely morally bankrupt creature? or a pretty decent guy who will do well after death?
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Re: Hello

Post by oscarkipling on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:51 am

zone wrote:
it was a sloppy disaster. shock & awe.
there's a sucker born every minute.
the bad guys know what trauma does.

tell me: is Tupac dead or alive?

Tupac Hologram "Performs" With Snoop Dogg at Coachella 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoTwer_b9_Y

Okay first off THAT WAS AWESOME!!! Second, I wasnt fooled for a second into thinking tupac was alive....but it was tooo awesome!


zone wrote:
anyway. this is a spiritual war.
we have 2 options regarding oscar

1) he chooses not to believe its a spiritual war and so doesn't understand WHY such deception would happen
2) he knows its a spiritual war and is on the side doing the deceiving.

seems like there are more possibilities

3) your evidence so far isn't as convincing as you think it is.
4) he is stupid, or otherwise unable to understand the evidence.
5) he knows its a spiritual war, but doesn't trust you enough to let you know that he knows
6)he knows its a spiritual war, but would rather not get involved
7)he knows its not a spiritual war
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Re: Hello

Post by zone on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:43 pm

oscarkipling wrote:
Okay first off THAT WAS AWESOME!!! Second, I wasnt fooled for a second into thinking tupac was alive....but it was tooo awesome!

oscar. the point is, if you didn't know who Tupac was or that he had died, you would probably not have suspected it was a hologram.

in any case, the techno they give us is decades old.


zone wrote:
anyway. this is a spiritual war.
we have 2 options regarding oscar

1) he chooses not to believe its a spiritual war and so doesn't understand WHY such deception would happen
2) he knows its a spiritual war and is on the side doing the deceiving.

oscarkipling wrote:
seems like there are more possibilities

3) your evidence so far isn't as convincing as you think it is.

um...oscar. "my" evidence?
i haven't been trying to convince you of anything...i told you that.

God Himself draws men to Christ.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man indicates, a man who will not be moved to seek the Gospel and is changed by it would not believe, even were one to rise from the dead.

oscarkipling wrote:
4) he is stupid, or otherwise unable to understand the evidence.

oscar is not stupid, though is a fallen sinner who may be unable to understand the evidence. which is why some of us have implored him to humbly ask the Spirit of Truth, Who convicts the world of its sin, AND convinces them of the truth of Jesus Christ to teach oscar.

the scriptures say the "god" of this world (satan) has blinded the minds of those who are perishing, so they will not see the simple but glorious truth of Jesus Christ. among whom we ALL once walked until we were transferred out of that condition into the Light of Christ Who is the True Light.

John 3
You Must Be Born Again
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesusa by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againb he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youf do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.g 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.h

For God So Loved the World
16“For God so loved the world,i that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

oscarkipling wrote:
5) he knows its a spiritual war, but doesn't trust you enough to let you know that he knows

well this is perfectly reasonable, and my guess it may be the most accurate possibility.
lol!

oscarkipling wrote:
6)he knows its a spiritual war, but would rather not get involved

not possible.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

(there are no other 'gods' - only demonic forces posing as 'gods' - idolatry resulting.

atheism is also idolatry, placing man in the position of God.

oscarkipling wrote:
7)he knows its not a spiritual war

interesting: how would oscar "know" it is NOT a spiritual war?

afro

this is all about having received a love of the truth, at any cost.
not post-modernity (truth is relative)

2 Thessalonians 2:10
...and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
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