IS THERE A GOD?

this is for the questions we've been asking this week.

oscar i hope we can continue the theological parts of our discussion here. because the stationary earth question is important. but there's a reason we're even interested in it at all. and its not just idle curiosity.

zone.

Sounds good, where do we begin?

well....what makes you doubt the universe (including you) was created?

zone wrote:well....what makes you doubt the universe (including you) was created?

I am confident that the universe exists, and there are a myriad of propositions that attempt to explain how it came to exist. Currently I dont believe there are any explanations that address every apprehensible aspect of the universe and its origins. To my knowledge there is little to no compelling evidence that would support the proposition that the universe was created by an intelligent agent, this is not exactly what i would call doubt, but disbelief.

oscarkipling wrote:
I am confident that the universe exists, and there are a myriad of propositions that attempt to explain how it came to exist. Currently I dont believe there are any explanations that address every apprehensible aspect of the universe and its origins. To my knowledge there is little to no compelling evidence that would support the proposition that the universe was created by an intelligent agent, this is not exactly what i would call doubt, but disbelief.

ok. so you reject the idea that the universe was created by "an intelligent agent" whom i call God.

which proposition that attempts to explain how it came to exist do you think is the most plausible?

one question i'll be asking is who did 9-11.

so that's one to ponder. it relates to all subjects we've been discussing.

signing off for now. i'll look for your posts.

zone wrote:
ok. so you reject the idea that the universe was created by "an intelligent agent" whom i call God.

just like doubt, I dont feel that reject is the proper word, I dont think that its supported by evidence so I dont believe it. If compelling evidence comes to my attention, then I would believe it.

zone wrote:
which proposition that attempts to explain how it came to exist do you think is the most plausible?

I think that a preexisting time symmetric multiverse is probably my favorite, but again I dont believe this either, its just plausible. Moreover there are some propositions of God that I find plausible as well.

zone wrote:one question i'll be asking is who did 9-11.

so that's one to ponder. it relates to all subjects we've been discussing.

signing off for now. i'll look for your posts.

well, I'm really interested in how 9/11 will work into the conversation. goodnight.

oscarkipling wrote:
just like doubt, I dont feel that reject is the proper word, I dont think that its supported by evidence so I dont believe it. If compelling evidence comes to my attention, then I would believe it. .

well, that remains to be seen i reckon.

zone wrote:
which proposition that attempts to explain how it came to exist do you think is the most plausible?

oscarkipling wrote:
I think that a preexisting time symmetric multiverse is probably my favorite, but again I dont believe this either, its just plausible. Moreover there are some propositions of God that I find plausible as well.

so...instead of us spending our time doing little mini-posts, why not just tell me which propositions of God you find plausible.

oscarkipling wrote:
well, I'm really interested in how 9/11 will work into the conversation. goodnight.

no prob.
please tell me who did 9-11.

once we establish that, the rest is easy.

the only problems are:

1) as Hermann Goering knew, we the people find it extremely difficult to accept that there is a group of men who are willing to deceive on an unimaginable scale...so we get the pesky cognitive dissonance thing going.

2) accepting that there is a group of men who are willing to deceive on an unimaginable scale is traumatic at first...so we have that problem of denial to deal with.

just so we don't spend a lot of time needlessly being coy:

who did 9-11, oscar? i'll give you a hint: see

Kabbalistic Cosmology
and its parallels in the
‘Big-Bang' of Modern Physics

9-11 was a False Flag event.

who is historically responsible for the most FF events?

here are a few recent examples:

Lusitania
Bromberg massacre
The King David Massacre
Lavon affair
RFK Assassination June 1968
USS Liberty ....June 6th, 1967
Black September 5, 1972
1976 ... Entebbe
1982 Abu Nidal attacks Goldenberg's delicatessen in Paris.
Pan Am flight 73
Beirut Marine barracks ...October 23,1983
Achille Lauro ...1985
Alia airliner...1985
Lockerbie ....Dec 1988
AMIA ....1992
Luxor, Egypt ... 1992
Khobar Towers ...1996
Karin-A...... 2000
Two airports attacked .....1985
LaBelle Disco ......1986
OKC Murrah Building ...1993
Flight 840
World Trade Center.... 1993
Port Arthur Massacre .....1996
Birmingham ....1998
Egyptair 990 (MSR990).....1999
USS Cole
Sept 11 .....2001
Flight 587....2001
Bali Bomb
Kenya missile .... 2002
Manila.... 2003
CIA Bomb In Gaza....2003
Madrid Train ... 2002
2004 Mossad bombed two airliners
July 2005 London bombings (7/7)

~

preposterous?

~

USS LIBERTY MEMORIAL

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.


The Attack


After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.


The Cover Up


Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.

In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found at http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf

http://www.gtr5.com/

...

9-11 was a FF. an inside job.

for what purpose? to what end?

~

QUESTION:
am i to believe you are not familiar with these things?
if not...i don't believe you.
if so, to what extent are you familiar with them?

if you are aware of them to any degree, then you know about 9-11.
if you know the truth of 9-11, then we can shave years off this process.

i just prefer to get straight to the point oscar.
the one thing i'm not interested in is hegel's merry-go-round.

fair?

The Union Between Kabbalah And Quantum Physics


Posted on May 19th, 2010 at 8:48 pm



In the News (from www.scirp.org): The following article, published by the Journal of Modern Physics and co-authored by Professor I. Orion, a quantum physicisist, is a result of my collaboration with scientists from various fields. The ideas of Kabbalah are gradually becoming clear to scientists.

http://www.laitman.com/2010/05/the-union-between-kabbalah-and-quantum-physics/

...

now, if one chooses to claim to be a purely rational and objective scientist/theorist, while aknowledging the connection to ancient Mystery Religions, that's fine by me.

i just prefer we all put our cards on the table.

we live in a spiritual world, and we are spiritual beings.

and i know Whom i have believed. Jesus of Nazareth...(not Talmudic Rabbis).

this is an ancient struggle. Jesus brought Truth and Grace into a world full of lies and bondage.

have you looked around this site or other sources yet oscar? can you truthfully say 'science' has nothing to do with 'religion'?

one might want to read this ENTIRE page, which craftily reveals the global plan, and in such lovely philo-religious terms. anybody who says this isn't exactly what's going down now is still in the cave.

all our politicians' rhetoric, all the trash taught in schools and by UNESCO and UN etc comes from this tree. and the fruit of it is poison.

Hegel/Marx/at al would be overjoyed:

KABBALAH AND THE MEANING OF LIFE
Evolution

Signs Of A Period Of Transition

Difficulties Of The Transitional Period

The Discrepancy Between The Two Systems

The Final Landing Of The Ego

Why Study The Past?

Not A Step, But Head Over Heels

The Beginning Of All Beginnings
Question: What is the fifth or zero stage of the evolutionary development?

Answer: We see that all the laws of nature originate from a single law of the closed system, and so we assume that the zero stage of the evolutionary development is what existed before the Big Bang or during the Big Bang as the Thought of Creation.

When Does Tranquility Come?
Question: Were the previous transitions of human development, for example, from the vegetative to the animate level, also accompanied by crises and suffering?

Answer: The previous transitions were smoother, more stretched out. The first, the still period, was the longest because the amount of still nature is much greater than the vegetative.

There is a kind of projection of one level of nature to the next, but it retains its proportions. That is why the still level of human development lasted tens of thousands of years, the vegetative one lasted thousands of years, and the animate one lasted hundreds of years, perhaps five centuries or even less. Our period should be over in just a few decades.

Nature directs all its parts from the Big Bang that started everything to complete rest, to full correspondence with each other. This tranquility will take place when man will reach his highest level and close the entire integral picture.

We are not talking about stars, galaxies, and so on. That does not matter. What matters is that at the highest level, man will be completely enclosed within it, including everything within himself. This is the requirement of nature. Its most important law is the law of balance of all of its parts. Any action tends toward equilibrium, to spending the least amount of energy, the minimal entropy, minimal disorder.

Here we encounter man who causes the greatest disorder. He is the only element of nature that has free will. Namely due to the freedom of will he must understand that he needs it only in order to achieve balance, harmony with nature.

The Four Stages Of Human Development
During the last century, it has reached unity. We have arrived at integration, at egoistic interaction. This has become the presupposition for the conception of the new level, which began to manifest in the middle of the 20th century. The Club of Rome, the academic Vernadsky in Russia, and various international organizations started to notice that a holistic level of nature is being revealed and it influences society accordingly. If we don’t follow it, then we’ll suffer from the imbalance with nature.

Many people at that time started to write and talk about it. Each one on his level: on the level of biology, sociology, political science, mineralogy, social development, or even the economic and financial development (economics and finance are two different functions of man). All of this has been accumulating gradually and has led to the emergence of prerequisites for passing onto the next level. However, the emergence of these prerequisites, like any movement in development, begins with small revolts which are constantly growing until they reach states where it is impossible to stop, to remain in the previous state, and then a new state is born by a leap.

Farewell To The Animate Level Of Development
However, a human is a collective image, Adam, where we gather all our hopes, thoughts, and desires, and, by uniting, we rise above our physical nature. That is something nature awakens and leads us toward. If we properly respond to nature’s call and follow in this correct direction, we come to an integral state of “human” where all our desires and thoughts unite.

Together, we feel this desire and new consciousness that is above the animate level by adapting among ourselves almost to the extent of not feeling our animate existence. We care about our body as if taking care of an animal, only to the extent required for its existence. We give food, sex, and family to the body to the extent of its physical needs. The rest of our needs we raise to the level of unification, integrality, and mutual responsibility.

That is the fourth phase we have to reach. The current cornerstone of the extremely critical crisis is just the point of bifurcation through which we must pass. I hope we pass through it more or less smoothly by realizing that we must rise to the next level.

http://www.laitman.com/category/evolution/

....

in case it isn't clear, this is the DISTOPIAN language of despotism and global marxism....something cutely called COMMUNITARIANISM.

the "we" the great thinker who penned the musings above doesn't include the vast proportion of humanity.

zone wrote:
When Does Tranquility Come?
Question: Were the previous transitions of human development, for example, from the vegetative to the animate level, also accompanied by crises and suffering?

so, here you have your "chaos theory" (and the theory of evolution).

in reality, The Lord's creation is orderly (though in a fallen state, hence the suffering) and not chaotic.

these other guys believe something else...their problem, though, is that they have had to INTRODUCE CHAOS to bring about their "utopia".

now any student of basic history knows there's a pattern here.

PROBLEM/REACTION/SOLUTION.
(9-11 = must introduce an enemy = must introduce police state)

and.....oscar, you said you'd be convinced if you saw the "apocalypse"*
the trick is that you've been living through it. just open your eyes and you'll see it.

*apocalypse Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis; "lifting of the veil" or "revelation"

that word doesn't mean what popular culture has determined.
perhaps you meant eschaton (last things/events prior to the end of the world).

zone wrote:
The Four Stages Of Human Development
During the last century, it has reached unity. We have arrived at integration, at egoistic interaction. This has become the presupposition for the conception of the new level, which began to manifest in the middle of the 20th century. The Club of Rome, the academic Vernadsky in Russia, and various international organizations started to notice that a holistic level of nature is being revealed and it influences society accordingly. If we don’t follow it, then we’ll suffer from the imbalance with nature.

The First Global Revolution - The Club of Rome

http://archive.org/stream/TheFirstGlobalRevolution#page/n85/mode/2up

"The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."

- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations

~

in searching for a new enemy to unite us

we came up with the idea....

would fit the bill

changed attitudes and behavior

The real enemy then, is humanity

“Man possesses, for a small moment in his history, the most powerful combination of knowledge, tools, and resources the world has ever known. He has all that is physically necessary to create a totally new form of human society - one that would be built to last for generations.” – The Limits to Growth, a report by The Club of Rome

“Now is the time to draw up a master plan for organic sustainable growth and world development based on global allocation of all finite resources and a new global economic system. Ten or twenty years from today it will probably be too late.” – Mankind at the Turning Point, a report by The Club of Rome

“This proposed new global system is highly interdependent as, in the same manner that the human body assigns different tasks to its various organs, each region is assigned specialized and specific tasks, and is each is dependent on the others for their common survival… The resultant ideal sustainable population is hence more than 500 million but less than one billion.” – Goals for Mankind, a report by The Club of Rome

“In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself. Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely. Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well suited for the tasks ahead.” – The First Global Revolution, a report by The Club of Rome

~

so, it should be fairly simple to find out who belongs to the club of rome and what they PRIVATELY believe.
what religion they PRIVATELY practise.

(remember NASA and the founders of it? same guys).

what was the NAZI agenda? EUGENICS.

what were the Darwins and Huxleys obsessed with? racial purity and eugenics.

what religion did those guys PRIVATELY practise?

Well... ummm... They weren't Presbyterians. :-D

oscarkipling wrote:To my knowledge there is little to no compelling evidence that would support the proposition that the universe was created by an intelligent agent,

If it turns out the Earth is stationary and sitting in the centre of the universe,,,would that convince you?

If not that...then what?

Strangelove wrote:
if it turns out the Earth is stationary and sitting in the centre of the universe,,,would that convince you?

If not that...then what?

hmm, yeah I think that would be extremely compelling evidence for an intelligent creator. I would have to reassess that I thought I knew about everything.

I'm not ignoring you zone, its just that yu posted a bunch of stuff that i have to look into.

its okay oscar.
i know you're here for the cosmology debate, not to seek Christ.
and that's fine. been nice talking to you.
take care.

zone

YEP!!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YVSYyPj3oA&feature=related

oscarkipling wrote:hmm, yeah I think that would be extremely compelling evidence for an intelligent creator.

Then you might understand how important it would be for satan to keep it a secret. If it was true, that is.

....[which it is].

oscarkipling wrote:
I would have to reassess that I thought I knew about everything.

You think you know about everything?

Strangelove wrote:

Then you might understand how important it would be for satan to keep it a secret. If it was true, that is.

....[which it is].

hypothetically , yes i get that.

Strangelove wrote:

You think you know about everything?

hahah of course not, I meant everything as in the set of all the things that I believe I know, which itself, i believe is a tiny subset of knowable things.

oscarkipling wrote:hypothetically , yes i get that.

Lets say, hypothetically of course, that the Earth is stationary...and the simplest explanation for actual experimental results is that fact. That is, actual....real, observable and repeatable science point to a stationary Earth in the middle of the universe as the most obvious and natural conclusion.

How do you think that satan [using men of course] would go about suppressing this?
It cant just be swept under the carpet, so whats to be done?

Strangelove wrote:

Lets say, hypothetically of course, that the Earth is stationary...and the simplest explanation for actual experimental results is that fact. That is, actual....real, observable and repeatable science point to a stationary Earth in the middle of the universe as the most obvious and natural conclusion.

How do you think that satan [using men of course] would go about suppressing this?
It cant just be swept under the carpet, so whats to be done?

I dont know that I'd bother suppressing it, most people wouldn't bother to try and understand the science anyway, and then of the people that did try to understand, at least some of them would misunderstand it. So I think I would focus my efforts on other things, I'd try to temp people with sex, violence and money and basic human needs like shelter because those are things that people readily understand, and they could easily be used to wreak havoc and chaos and distract people from any deeper questioning about anything. If I could i would attempt to destabilize every attempt a healthy social structure, and especially any sense of security, If people are worried about safety , or are mistrustful of others, they are too busy thinking about their "enemies" to pay any attention to the astronomical observations, nor would they have the time too ponder the observations, as they are in a struggle for mere survival in a dangerous world. I know what you are getting at (or suspect), you probably expect that "fake" science or science that is so intimidating that people take the authority's word for it would be a good strategy, but it seems like a tremendous waste of time considering how easy it is to manipulate people with more universal things and how little people care about or understand science anyway.

oscarkipling wrote:
I know what you are getting at (or suspect), you probably expect that "fake" science or science that is so intimidating that people take the authority's word for it would be a good strategy, but it seems like a tremendous waste of time considering how easy it is to manipulate people with more universal things and how little people care about or understand science anyway.

Speaking of which Oscar ;

Revelation 13:13 says this of the great deceiver;

And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

Maybe this is what it's going to take for some to realize what truly lies ahead .... and that God is indeed who He has said He is and always will be in Jesus the Christ ? We're all going to be fools for something. Who or what are you going to be a fool for ?

oscarkipling wrote:I dont know that I'd bother suppressing it, most people wouldn't bother to try and understand the science anyway, and then of the people that did try to understand, at least some of them would misunderstand it. So I think I would focus my efforts on other things, I'd try to temp people with sex, violence and money and basic human needs like shelter because those are things that people readily understand, and they could easily be used to wreak havoc and chaos and distract people from any deeper questioning about anything. If I could i would attempt to destabilize every attempt a healthy social structure, and especially any sense of security, If people are worried about safety , or are mistrustful of others, they are too busy thinking about their "enemies" to pay any attention to the astronomical observations, nor would they have the time too ponder the observations, as they are in a struggle for mere survival in a dangerous world.

What do you think satans job is?

To make people miserable, sick, worried, mistrustful and distracted etc....

....or to stop them worshipping God by deceiving them into atheism?

Do you think if God and satan were real, this would be about flesh or spirit?

Would it be about a comfortable life down here or eternal life in heaven?

Even the most downtrodden and destitute person can still have faith in Jesus. In contrast, there are many rich people who are atheist...or worse. Making peoples lives stink doesnt turn them away from God. Deceit does.

oscarkipling wrote:
I know what you are getting at (or suspect), you probably expect that "fake" science or science that is so intimidating that people take the authority's word for it would be a good strategy, but it seems like a tremendous waste of time considering how easy it is to manipulate people with more universal things and how little people care about or understand science anyway.

Whats to understand?

The heavens revolve around the stationary Earth. And God must have put the Earth there. Simple.

Everyone understood this just fine b4 the copernican revolution.

People are not manipulated away from faith in God by having their quality of life effected. This is a spiritual battle.

Strangelove wrote:

What do you think satans job is?

To make people miserable, sick, worried, mistrustful and distracted etc....

....or to stop them worshipping God by deceiving them into atheism?

Do you think if God and satan were real, this would be about flesh or spirit?

Would it be about a comfortable life down here or eternal life in heaven?

Even the most downtrodden and destitute person can still have faith in Jesus. In contrast, there are many rich people who are atheist...or worse. Making peoples lives stink doesnt turn them away from God. Deceit does.

I thought his job was to make people sin.

Strangelove wrote:
Whats to understand?

The heavens revolve around the stationary Earth. And God must have put the Earth there. Simple.

Everyone understood this just fine b4 the copernican revolution.

People are not manipulated away from faith in God by having their quality of life effected. This is a spiritual battle.

alright, I understand that this is your position, but i dont think it fits the data at this time.

oscarkipling wrote:I thought his job was to make people sin.

Atheism is the worst sin.

The chief commandment:

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

oscarkipling wrote:alright, I understand that this is your position, but i dont think it fits the data at this time.

You dont think this being a spiritual battle fits the data?

Huh?