IS THERE A GOD?

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Big bang cosmogeny and macro evolution are taught as fact in schools.

"Big bang cosmogeny" perhaps although probably out of a lack of understanding or ability to explain, but macro evolution and abiogenesis are different things entirely.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:50 pm

oscarkipling wrote:"Big bang cosmogeny" perhaps although probably out of a lack of understanding or ability to explain, but macro evolution and abiogenesis are different things entirely.

Damn right. Abiogenesis is when God created everything. In my world anyway.

In your world its just a straight dead end.

So I wonder why its presented as a hypothesis in the education system at all?

Any answers? Where did life first come from?

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:08 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Damn right. Abiogenesis is when God created everything. In my world anyway.
In your world its just a straight dead end.
So I wonder why its presented as a hypothesis in the education system at all?

well, I cant say that I agree that its a dead end, we dont know enough about it to call it a dead end IMO. Its an important and current field of mainstream scientific investigation....investigating the question of what happened before the first organism that seems like a good enough reason to be mentioned in the education system, although presenting it as established fact is not the right way to go, and not my experience of it.

Strangelove wrote:
Any answers? Where did life first come from?

I dont have any answers, I do not know how the first living thing came into existence.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:17 pm

oscarkipling wrote:well, I cant say that I agree that its a dead end, we dont know enough about it to call it a dead end IMO. Its an important and current field of mainstream scientific investigation....investigating the question of what happened before the first organism that seems like a good enough reason to be mentioned in the education system, although presenting it as established fact is not the right way to go, and not my experience of it.

Strangelove wrote:
Any answers? Where did life first come from?

I dont have any answers, I do not know how the first living thing came into existence.

LOLZ!

Does anyone in the field have any answers?

If no one has any answers then thats called a dead end bud. cyclops

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Strangelove wrote:
LOLZ!

Does anyone in the field have any answers?

If no one has any answers then thats called a dead end bud. cyclops

well, I suppose that calling something currently under investigation a dead end is one way to look at it. When you said dead end I thought you meant that scientific inquiry was impossible or would be necessarily fruitless....but if your description of dead end is, yet unsolved then, sure, I'll agree with that.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:27 pm

oscarkipling wrote:well, I suppose that calling something currently under investigation a dead end is one way to look at it. When you said dead end I thought you meant that scientific inquiry was impossible or would be necessarily fruitless....but if your description of dead end is, yet unsolved then, sure, I'll agree with that.

Yet unsolved....scientific inquiry is/was/will be impossible....fruitless...all of those things oscar. Life doesnt come from nothing.

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Yet unsolved....scientific inquiry is/was/will be impossible....fruitless...all of those things oscar. Life doesnt come from nothing.

well, you kind of have to realize that from a scientific standpoint its not at all clear that the investigation is futile thought right?
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:05 pm

oscarkipling wrote:well, you kind of have to realize that from a scientific standpoint its not at all clear that the investigation is futile thought right?

I guess no kind of investigation is futile when you look at things from a nutty pseudo scientific standpoint. Anythings game innit?
Lets just cut to the chase and say the first life came from erm.....'dark' life. geek

No sign of it whatsoever but its gotto be there right? Cuz otherwise whats left?

God.

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:23 pm

Strangelove wrote:

I guess no kind of investigation is futile when you look at things from a nutty pseudo scientific standpoint. Anythings game innit?
Lets just cut to the chase and say the first life came from erm.....'dark' life. geek

No sign of it whatsoever but its gotto be there right? Cuz otherwise whats left?

God.


I mean the simple question "how did life begin?" I think is open to investigation without invoking any pseudoscience. Now it could be argued that many hypotheses and theories may invoke pseudoscience, but as a question, I dont think its clear that it is not a valid or possibly fruitful area of investigation.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:30 pm

oscarkipling wrote:I mean the simple question "how did life begin?" I think is open to investigation without invoking any pseudoscience. Now it could be argued that many hypotheses and theories may invoke pseudoscience, but as a question, I dont think its clear that it is not a valid or possibly fruitful area of investigation.

Lolz....you dont even have a hypothesis man. Not even a clue.

Fruitless. No possible chance of fruit. A totally illogical area of investigation.

But our kids are presented with it in school. No science...just the best guess that life came from non-living material!

Question: "What is the theory of abiogenesis? What is the definition of abiogenesis?"

Answer: Abiogenesis is the idea of life originating from non-living material (non-life). This concept has expanded a great deal as mankind’s understanding of science has grown, but all forms of abiogenesis have one thing in common: they are all scientifically unsupportable. There have been no experiments demonstrating abiogenesis in action. It has never been observed in a natural or artificial environment. Conditions believed to have existed on earth are either incapable of producing the building blocks needed, or self-contradictory. No evidence has been found suggesting where or when such life might have generated. In fact, everything we know of science today seems to indicate that abiogenesis could not have happened under any naturally possible conditions.

http://www.gotquestions.org/abiogenesis-definition-theory.html

Duh! MADNESS!

scientifically unsupportable
scientifically unsupportable
scientifically unsupportable

oscarkipling wrote:I dont think its clear that it is not a valid or possibly fruitful area of investigation.

scientifically unsupportable
could not have happened under any naturally possible conditions.

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:01 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Lolz....you dont even have a hypothesis man. Not even a clue.

Fruitless. No possible chance of fruit. A totally illogical area of investigation.

But our kids are presented with it in school. No science...just the best guess that life came from non-living material!

Question: "What is the theory of abiogenesis? What is the definition of abiogenesis?"

Answer: Abiogenesis is the idea of life originating from non-living material (non-life). This concept has expanded a great deal as mankind’s understanding of science has grown, but all forms of abiogenesis have one thing in common: they are all scientifically unsupportable. There have been no experiments demonstrating abiogenesis in action. It has never been observed in a natural or artificial environment. Conditions believed to have existed on earth are either incapable of producing the building blocks needed, or self-contradictory. No evidence has been found suggesting where or when such life might have generated. In fact, everything we know of science today seems to indicate that abiogenesis could not have happened under any naturally possible conditions.

http://www.gotquestions.org/abiogenesis-definition-theory.html

Duh! MADNESS!

scientifically unsupportable
scientifically unsupportable
scientifically unsupportable



scientifically unsupportable
could not have happened under any naturally possible conditions.


scientifically unsupported, experimentally unverified, physically impossible, and scientifically unsupportable all mean different things. essentially the only things that are scientifically unsupportable are unfalsifiable or falsified (physically impossible can be considered falsified) hypothesis/theories, there may be unfalsifiable abiogenesis theories, but those are useless anyway, the other ones are possibly unsupported and unverified, but not fundamentally unfalsifiable or falsified.

Anyway, I dont administer any schools, I have no control over curriculum, and I dont think that abiogenesis should be taught as if it was a confirmed scientific fact. Personally, I dont know how the first organism came to exist, and I think that's the only honest position I can have on this issue at this time.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:16 pm

oscarkipling wrote:scientifically unsupported, experimentally unverified, physically impossible, and scientifically unsupportable all mean different things. essentially the only things that are scientifically unsupportable are unfalsifiable or falsified (physically impossible can be considered falsified) hypothesis/theories, there may be unfalsifiable abiogenesis theories, but those are useless anyway, the other ones are possibly unsupported and unverified, but not fundamentally unfalsifiable or falsified.

What are the other abiogenesis theories that are not fundamentally unfalsifiable or falsified?

Do we get another big fat 'I don't know' from you on that one oscar?

oscarkipling wrote:
Anyway, I dont administer any schools, I have no control over curriculum, and I dont think that abiogenesis should be taught as if it was a confirmed scientific fact. Personally, I dont know how the first organism came to exist, and I think that's the only honest position I can have on this issue at this time.

Abiogenesis should not even be mentioned in schools as it is scientifically unsupportable under any naturally possible conditions.

Meh......g'night.

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:04 pm

oscarkipling wrote:Personally, I dont know how the first organism came to exist, and I think that's the only honest position I can have on this issue at this time.

what does your gut tell you oscar?
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:29 am

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Oscar...

Do you truly somehow believe nothing became something all by itself; and random chaos somehow found intricate order without such order being overwhelmingly displaced by the pervasive chaos that would necessarily result while producing such a miniscule scale of order? Wouldn't the ratio of random chaos propagation grossly exceed and eclipse the scale of order seen today? And where did all the chaos go? Wouldn't it be exponentially more prolific than the ensuing order?

How would defined order ever prevail over random chaos? Do you really find that tenable?

for sure PPS.

i mean....for ANY of the garden variety atheist's theories to be observed (therefore presumably verified to some degree).....we ought to be able to look out our window and see creatures in ALL stages of 'evolution/mutation/development'.

why is it i do not see, nor is it recorded anywhere in history that human beings observe wolves giving birth to; or turning into zebras?

why can't i look out my window and see a giant toad loading onto the city bus, dropping his coins into the slot?

why can't i see a 150 lb leather-skinned flying creature with 12 legs hunting in Chicago?

why don't we see a kitten emerge from a cacoon?

most obvious....why do we not see human-like creatures in ALL...i repeat ALL 'stages' of macro-evolution right now, today?

are we to believe that the random universe randomly selected the attributes of what we call MAN (more amazingly randomly developed a variation of his species called WOMAN) and YET somehow ALSO managed to simultaneously dispense with the "other" variations of MEN who did not measure up even to to be 'selected'?

in other words....where are all the variations of human creatures? (and i don't mean races)...i mean WHERE ARE THEY?

where is the evidence of them? (Mr. Rockefeller and Mr. Carnegie's collections don't count since there's a wee conflict of interest involved....same lot who needed their nephew Charles to come up with a 'natural selection' process which PROVED those few families were examples of the FITTEST (since they clearly held all the wealth and remained in positions of power).

what a JOKE!!!!!Rolling Eyes

just look at the list of the usual suspects AND their private club the ROYAL SOCIETY (oh. i forgot: that's the same club the Masons of NASA started:| ):

The Darwin–Wedgwood family is actually two interrelated English families, descended from the prominent 18th century doctor, Erasmus Darwin, and Josiah Wedgwood, founder of the pottery firm, Josiah Wedgwood and Sons, the most notable member of which was Charles Darwin. The family contained at least ten Fellows of the Royal Society and several artists and poets (including the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams). Presented below are brief biographical sketches and genealogical information with links to articles on the members. The individuals are listed by year of birth and grouped into generations. The relationship to Francis Galton and his immediate ancestors is also given. Note the tree below does not include all descendants or even all prominent descendants.

wiki
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:52 am

any man who is an apologist for any form of macro evolution (and i'd argue micro) better be able to address the PUSHERS of the ideas...or explain why they will not.

Darwin's Hidden Agenda for Science.

There is no evidence in all of Charles Darwin's published correspondence and writings that he ever embraced biblical Christianity. As we have seen, virtually all the formative influences on his thinking were contrary to Christian faith. He always concealed his rejection of Christianity, but in his 1876 Autobiography he stated his unbelief in very blunt, even crude words. His closest scientific associates were all men who had given up biblical Christian faith, and some of them were committed enemies of the faith. For example, Sir Charles Lyell, the father of modern geology, was determined to discredit the biblical record of earth history, and Charles' "bulldog," anatomist T.H. Huxley, wrote that he was "sharpening [his] claws," ready to "disembowel" any clergymen who criticized Darwin's Origin of Species.

It is clear that Charles Darwin's hidden agenda for science was to drive out of the thinking of all scientists any concept of divine special creation, divine intervention into the world, and divine teleology (purpose, plan or goal) in the natural world. This amounts to redefining science wrongly to make it an automatic weapon against Christian faith. Darwin's theory has often been criticized by secular scientists, but his agenda for science has long enjoyed universal success in the secular establishment.
http://www.parentcompany.com/csrc/cdagenda.htm

...

as i've stated before, there's really no such thing as a 'secular' establishment.

the guys in charge actually DO practise a religion, and it is what drives their agenda.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:08 am



As antiquity gave way to modern history, the religious power structure shifted to an autocracy of the knowable, or a 'scientific dictatorship.' Subtly and swiftly, the ruling class seized control of science and used it as an 'epistemological weapon' against the masses. This article will show that the history and background of this 'scientific dictatorship' is a conspiracy, created and micro-managed by the historical tide of Darwinism, which has its foundations in Freemasonry.

...Thus, the ruling class endeavors to discourage independent reason while exercising illusory power over human knowledge.....

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ascendancy.htm

....

oscar:)...these are just samples of counter-secular-scientific dictatorship arguments.
anyone can spend one day discovering the laughable 'godless' theories of A FEW RULING CLASS families are nothing more than a deceptive ruse to cover both their real beliefs, and to justify their ruthlessness toward 'the other' (the masses of humanity they call cattle/chattel/useless eaters - you and me).

are you at all familiar with this group's (family's) actual lineage and trail of dissimulations?

is it not reasonable to you that a tiny group with unlimited resources would spare no expense; would plan centuries in advance; would consider any actions acceptable as means to their end?

did you know ANYONE can do an online genealogical search and find that the Bushes are directly related to the usurpers the Habsburg/Goethe clan who currently call themselves THE WINDSORS?

so is dick cheney; barack obama; sarah palin; mitt romney; the morgans; the darwins; the rothschilds....ad infinitum? all one big happy family, oscar.

~

"Success is the important thing. Propaganda is not a matter for average minds, but rather a matter for practitioners. It is not supposed to be lovely or theoretically correct. I do not care if I give wonderful, aesthetically elegant speeches, or speak so that women cry. The point of a political speech is to persuade people of what we think right. I speak differently in the provinces than I do in Berlin, and when I speak in Bayreuth, I say different things than I say in the Pharus Hall. That is a matter of practice, not of theory. We do not want to be a movement of a few straw brains, but rather a movement that can conquer the broad masses. Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths. "

Joseph Goebbels

okay? so the ruthless elites use propaganda. that's obvious.
does it work? is it an effective method of mind control and deception?

of course.

is there a way to resist and deflect that mind control?....yes. there is.

do you know what that is, oscar?
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:35 am

ONCE YOU HAVE DISPENSED WITH "GOD"...you have paved the way for a new priesthood.

"Simultaneously, the Technological Revolution has led to another unique and unprecedented development in human history, and one that is diametrically opposed, yet directly related to the global political awakening. For the first time in human history, free humanity is faced with the dominating threat of a truly global elite, who have at their hands the technology to impose a truly global system of control: a global scientific dictatorship. The great danger is that through the exponential growth in scientific techniques, elites will use these great new powers to control and dominate all of humanity in such a way that has never before been experienced.


Through all of human history, tyrants have used coercive force and terror to control populations. With the Technological Revolution, elites increasingly have the ability to control the very biology and psychology of the individual to a point where it may not be necessary to impose a system of terror, but rather where the control is implemented on a much deeper, psychological, subliminal and individual biological manner. While terror can prevent people from opposing power for a while, the scientific dictatorship can create a personal psycho-social condition in which the individual comes to love his or her own slavery; in which, like a mentally inferior pet, they are made to love their leaders and accept their servitude."

Another work most view as fiction is Aldous Huxley’s BRAVE NEW WORLD (1932). However, it too was about a real future we will face. On March 20, 1962, Huxley at U.C.-Berkeley revealed there will be “scientific dictatorships of the future.”


He stated: “If you can get people to assent to the state of affairs in which they are living, the state of servitude,… it seems to me that the nature of the ultimate revolution with which we are now faced is precisely this—that we are in process of developing a whole series of techniques which will enable the controlling oligarchy, who have always existed and presumably always will exist, to get people actually to love their servitude. People can be made to enjoy a state of affairs which by any decent standard they ought not to enjoy. And these methods, I think, are a real refinement on the older methods of terror, because they combine methods of terror with methods of acceptance. Among the various other methods which one can think of, there is, for example, the pharmacological method,… and the result would be that you can imagine a euphoric which would make people thoroughly happy even in the most abominable circumstances. I mean these things are possible!”


~


ok? clearly a demonic nutjob. but also clearly IN POWER. a Huxley! notice that oscar? same players over and over?

see how his goal is the masses IN SERVITUDE? we'll talk about his REAL religion later. its the same one YOU believe if you believe in 'modern cosmology'. they slipped in their 'scientists' and indoc'd you via 'science'....its anything but. they got you to trust them by donning white jackets (not robes) and postulating theories as science when in fact it is ancient religion - gnostic/Mystery religion.

~


so, their plan was to ELIMINATE the religions/traditions which have held kindreds tongues and nations in cohesive groups....as they destroy the OLD ORDER and usher in their new UTOPIA (for them) using a 'scientific dictatorship'.

this 'scientific dictatorship' has ZERO to do with science.

it has to do with the Fabian-style introduction of a NEW priesthood, the 'scientific' EXPERT.

the scientific 'expert'....who will, operating through the Socialist/Fascist model of NGOs (unaccountable bureaucrats) establish the NEW GLOBAL 'REALITIES' ("truths") we will all live by.

EXAMPLE:

Anthro-Global Warming Terror requires Draconian population reduction and austerity measures for the masses.

Q:

is global warming a reality or a lie?

what is the premise of the global warming threat?

A:

man (who is merely an animal) is screwing up the planet due to C02 (*snicker* what IDIOT believes this?)
lol!

so what MUST be done to stop this "disaster'?

????????
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:47 am

ok?

so, all the resources, all the world's 'leaders' on board with what is BOGUS 'SCIENCE'...whatup wit dat?

what do THEY SAY?

“The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome

The First Global Revolution

The environmental movement has been described as the largest and most influential social phenomenon in modern history. From relative obscurity just a few decades ago it has spawned thousands of organisations and claims millions of committed activists. Reading the newspaper today it is hard to imagine a time when global warming, resource depletion, environmental catastrophes and 'saving the planet' were barely mentioned. They now rank among the top priorities on the social, political and economic global agenda.

Environmental awareness is considered to be the mark of any good honest decent citizen. Multi-national companies compete fiercely to promote their environmental credentials and 'out-green' each other. The threat of impending ecological disasters is uniting the world through a plethora of international treaties and conventions. But where did this phenomenon come from, how did it rise to such prominence, and more importantly, where is it going?

...........

i don't like being manipulated and lied to from Kindergarten forward oscar....do you?
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:07 am



UNICEF: Children's Climate Forum: "time to fight climate change is now"


~

a simple UNICEF Huxley search:


Corrected Progress in Girls Education Cover_22May.p65
... SOUTH ASIA. Sarah Huxley ... The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Regional ... necessarily constitute an endorsement by UNICEF or UNGEI. Chair ...
www.ungei.org/resources/files/Final_Progress_in_Girls_Education_23_May.pdf

Integrated Management of Childhood Illness: A WHO/UNICEF ...
were Thomas Henry Huxley and Alfred Russel Wallace. Huxley maintained that ... international agencies such as WHO and UNICEF that the single most ...
digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/32670/1/Biosocialreviews.pdf

Who started the unicef fund
"The United Nations Children's Fund (or UNICEF) was created by the United Nations ... Sir Julian Huxley and a team of ornithologists and scientists started the ...
wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_started_the_unicef_fund

~

hmm...propaganda...slogans...behavioural changes...UN/Unicef/Unesco & the Huxleys.....

a-a-a-a-nyways....wanna know what their religion really is?Question
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:27 am

oh boy zone, you sure dont do any half stepping, and I appreciate that, just takes a while to respond to the sheer amount of claims you make. anyway i'll try to take this stuff piecemeal.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:03 pm

zone wrote:

for sure PPS.

i mean....for ANY of the garden variety atheist's theories to be observed (therefore presumably verified to some degree).....we ought to be able to look out our window and see creatures in ALL stages of 'evolution/mutation/development'.

why?

zone wrote:
why is it i do not see, nor is it recorded anywhere in history that human beings observe wolves giving birth to; or turning into zebras?

first that is not a phenomena that one should expect within the the modern biological evolutionary model, but you dont see it because even in the unlikely circumstance that a severely mutated wolf egg is fertilized by a severly mutated wolf sperm, and their pretty much complete mutations come together to create a zygote that genetically resembles a zebra zygote (which is already as unlikely as unlikely gets), it would probably be miscarried (if it even implants) due to the physiological differences between the wolf and zebra wombs and the way pregnancies in those species develop. Its the same reason you probably cant take a zebra fetus, and implant it into a wolf.

zone wrote:
why can't i look out my window and see a giant toad loading onto the city bus, dropping his coins into the slot?

I should point out that this also is not a phenomena that one should expect within the the modern biological evolutionary model. I suppose you are asking why didn't frogs develop into gross anthropomorphic frog monsters....sorry gross anthropomorphic toad monsters. Why would toad-men develop into a human like shape and features anyway? People cant jump as high (considering scaling), or hibernate for years, or survive being frozen solid, why wouldn't they develop on their own path, and become something utterly different than people? Anyway, the real deal is that humans and toads did have a common ancestor somewhere down the line, and in a sense, whatever that ancestor was branched off and became toads, and humans.

zone wrote:
why can't i see a 150 lb leather-skinned flying creature with 12 legs hunting in Chicago?

12 legs and no wings, doesn't sound very aerodynamic to me...my guess is they went extinct because they only thought they could fly and kept jumping to their deaths from the sears tower, flailing their many legs about all the way down...lol

zone wrote:
why don't we see a kitten emerge from a cacoon?

first that is not a phenomena that one should expect within the the modern biological evolutionary model, but this is because kittens dont come from cocoon, although i imagine you could put a kitten in a large cocoon and make it fight its way out...kinda mean tho.

zone wrote:
most obvious....why do we not see human-like creatures in ALL...i repeat ALL 'stages' of macro-evolution right now, today?

that is not a phenomena that one should expect within the the modern biological evolutionary model.

zone wrote:
are we to believe that the random universe randomly selected the attributes of what we call MAN (more amazingly randomly developed a variation of his species called WOMAN) and YET somehow ALSO managed to simultaneously dispense with the "other" variations of MEN who did not measure up even to to be 'selected'?

in other words....where are all the variations of human creatures? (and i don't mean races)...i mean WHERE ARE THEY?

They are extinct (there is DNA evidence that humans mated with some of them), our closest living relatives are the other great apes, and most closely related are chimps and bonobos. There is no reason the think that every variation of every organism should be alive at the same time, many variations would be ill suited to the environment of modern earth. Others, we would have almost certainly drove to extinction by now, like the many animals that you and i will never see, and ones that we could see but will be dead in several generations.

zone wrote:
where is the evidence of them? (Mr. Rockefeller and Mr. Carnegie's collections don't count since there's a wee conflict of interest involved....same lot who needed their nephew Charles to come up with a 'natural selection' process which PROVED those few families were examples of the FITTEST (since they clearly held all the wealth and remained in positions of power).

what a JOKE!!!!!Rolling Eyes

so, which fossils would count as evidence? If a christian found fossils (or other evidence) would they be able to count?


zone wrote:
just look at the list of the usual suspects AND their private club the ROYAL SOCIETY (oh. i forgot: that's the same club the Masons of NASA started:| ):

i see.


zone wrote:
The Darwin–Wedgwood family is actually two interrelated English families, descended from the prominent 18th century doctor, Erasmus Darwin, and Josiah Wedgwood, founder of the pottery firm, Josiah Wedgwood and Sons, the most notable member of which was Charles Darwin. The family contained at least ten Fellows of the Royal Society and several artists and poets (including the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams). Presented below are brief biographical sketches and genealogical information with links to articles on the members. The individuals are listed by year of birth and grouped into generations. The relationship to Francis Galton and his immediate ancestors is also given. Note the tree below does not include all descendants or even all prominent descendants.

wiki

I'll have to read up on these folks at a later date
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:39 pm

an intelligent toad walking on 2 feet hurrying to get to work is no more absurd in a godless random evolutionary model than a man 'evolving' (i don't care how you finesse it).

if an intelligent man can jump on the bus after eons and eons of developing from primordial ooze, why not toads? or bejingions (some other creature who we should see TODAY outside our windows.

why can't i see a hopping stupid reptilian toad alongside a slight and greatly evolved one? WHERE ARE THEY???

i need a solid answer for this....or you got NADA.


and i need to know why, if evolution is an ongoing process, i do not see humanoid creatures of every kind mingling among us today. WHERE ARE THEY?

and how did random evolutionary processes just happen to spin the wheel and come up with a female of every species?

why not just a self replicating organism like the ones that suposedly started all this?

WHAT A LAUGH!

ugh.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:44 pm

oscarkipling wrote:
that is not a phenomena that one should expect within the the modern biological evolutionary model.

in a few simple paragraphs explain this new model please.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:50 pm

oscarkipling wrote:our closest living relatives are the other great apes, and most closely related are chimps and bonobos.

OMG!!!!!!lol!

why? because there are physical similarities?

bats have little fingers too. did we lose our wings somewhere along the line?

MAYBE THE MYSTIC RABBI was right when he said as we evolved from monkeys and decided we didn't need our tails we rubbed them off on rock walls. he couldn't really answer why offspring continued to be born with tails. (hahahahahahheheheheheh.....oooo........that hurts....too funny).


how close is the match between human and swine DNA oscar?

why do we transplant pig hearts into humans instead of primate?

anyways, i'm bored with this....please show me evidence of humanoids (not primates) in various stages of evolution....they would be EXTANT NOW. TODAY.

also, show me primates in various stages of evolution. seeing one on the bus going to work and deciding to marry or take a vacation would be good (not one trained by man).

it would be good to see one that biologically matches but hasn't "evolved" enough to be visibly recognized as a primate. isn't that how it works?

and if "life" is random, and information input by an intelligent creator with a plan and PARAMETERS is for stupid religious people; why can't RANDOMNESS have a cat produce a frog? WHY NOT? we ought to be able to see this process taking place however slowly IN NATURE (NOT THE CRAZY PEOPLE'S LABS)


Last edited by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:55 pm

oscarkipling wrote:


I'll have to read up on these folks at a later date

you espouse their 'science' but don't know who they are?

nah. not believable. at the very least i would think you'd want to know whom you have believed ASAP so they don't make a monkey of you:)


oh well. to each their own (literally).
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by unclefester on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:31 pm

zone wrote:

you espouse their 'science' but don't know who they are?

nah. not believable. at the very least i would think you'd want to know whom you have believed ASAP so they don't make a monkey of you:)


oh well. to each their own (literally).

Ya got me thinkin' now Zone.

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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by zone on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:27 pm

unclefester wrote:

Ya got me thinkin' now Zone.


ROTFLMMonkeyHO!


adore that avatar Fes...looks a little like my Uncle (not).

love ya

z
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:45 pm

zone wrote:an intelligent toad walking on 2 feet hurrying to get to work is no more absurd in a godless random evolutionary model than a man 'evolving' (i don't care how you finesse it).

Well, I didn't call it absurd, and its not really an absurd thing to wonder, but there are reasons that it doesn't work that way. I'll explain in a bit.

zone wrote:
if an intelligent man can jump on the bus after eons and eons of developing from primordial ooze, why not toads? or bejingions (some other creature who we should see TODAY outside our windows.

why can't i see a hopping stupid reptilian toad alongside a slight and greatly evolved one? WHERE ARE THEY???

i need a solid answer for this....or you got NADA.

and i need to know why, if evolution is an ongoing process, i do not see
humanoid creatures of every kind mingling among us today. WHERE ARE
THEY?

Here is where the problem lies, there is this idea that evolution is working toward intelligence, or anthropomorphic forms as the height of evolution. This is not correct, organisms in some sense adapt to their environment, and find niches these dont all include intelligence in order to proliferate. One way to think of it is that becoming an upright walking intelligent humanoids isn't the most advantageous path of development for every species at every time. another thing to consider is that its quite possible that some psyiologies might not be capable of efficiently producing and sustaining intelligence, that is to say for cold blooded animals spending resources on a bigger brain might not be an efficient way to spend resources. Now, when you eliminate the idea that intelligence and bipedal motion are the best case scenerio for every organism, you can note that there are fairly old species of frogs that haven't changed much in many millions of years, living with or near other frogs that are fairly new models. in a broader context, there are animals that are relatively unchanged lineages living along side species that came into existence relatively recently, we do see this type of diversity.


zone wrote:
and how did random evolutionary processes just happen to spin the wheel and come up with a female of every species?

why not just a self replicating organism like the ones that suposedly started all this?

there actually are not females in every species, but its true that most species do have males and females. its unclear exactly how or why sexual reproduction developed, but once it did develop, the dichotomy was passed on to offspring, so the M/F way of life was inherited. There are still organisms that reproduce asexually, but it appears that sexual reproduction had advantages that made it quite popular in biology.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:02 pm

zone wrote:
in a few simple paragraphs explain this new model please.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/evolution/evolution1.htm

its more than a few paragraphs, but its not super long either. If you really want to understand what evolution predicts, and what it doesn't you should check out http://www.talkorigins.org/ too. Its not as if evolution is without its problems, its just that it doesn't have the problems you've listed so far.
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Re: IS THERE A GOD?

Post by oscarkipling on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:19 pm

zone wrote:

OMG!!!!!!lol!

why? because there are physical similarities?

yes physical similarities, but DNA probably seals the deal

zone wrote:
bats have little fingers too. did we lose our wings somewhere along the line?

our last common ancestor with bats probably didn't have wings, so no.

zone wrote:
MAYBE THE MYSTIC RABBI was right when he said as we evolved from monkeys and decided we didn't need our tails we rubbed them off on rock walls. he couldn't really answer why offspring continued to be born with tails. (hahahahahahheheheheheh.....oooo........that hurts....too funny).
i dont know anything about this.


zone wrote:
how close is the match between human and swine DNA oscar?

why do we transplant pig hearts into humans instead of primate?

well, we dont actually transplant pig hearts into people. we use pig heart valves sometimes. there are lots of good reasons to use pigs instead of chimps, first we kill and eat pigs on a regular basis, so you are unlikely to upset people if you kill a pig and take its heart valves, but can you imagine the uproar if we were farming chimps for their valves. Pig hearts are closer in size to human hearts than chimp hearts. pigs are far more accessible and abundant and easier and cheaper to acquire and maintain than chimps.

zone wrote:
anyways, i'm bored with this....please show me evidence of humanoids (not primates) in various stages of evolution....they would be EXTANT NOW. TODAY.

also, show me primates in various stages of evolution. seeing one on the bus going to work and deciding to marry or take a vacation would be good (not one trained by man).

it would be good to see one that biologically matches but hasn't "evolved" enough to be visibly recognized as a primate. isn't that how it works?

no, that is not how it works.

zone wrote:
and if "life" is random, and information input by an intelligent creator with a plan and PARAMETERS is for stupid religious people; why can't RANDOMNESS have a cat produce a frog? WHY NOT? we ought to be able to see this process taking place however slowly IN NATURE (NOT THE CRAZY PEOPLE'S LABS)


no, that is not how it works.
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