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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:57 pm

So... As I've clearly said in approaching this topic; I'm truly looking for scriptural evidence of Cessation. I've set aside experience of whatever I've seen or know about directly.

God could just as easily have healed instantaneously because of the petition of prayers. Even the most notable of miracles doesn't inherently require the gifts to have continued. All Cessationists I've encountered believe God still heals today.

So I'm not putting up examples of experience. Those are subjective and unverifiable. And they can be attributed to God's mercy and grace in healing.

The most common Continuationist view is that the Second Advent is "that which is teleios". But "face to face" isn't us face to face with Jesus. It's a reflection in a mirror of polished metal.

The most common Cessationist view is that the final autograph of scripture for canonization is "that which is teleios". But at the very least, there's no witness for that interpretation; and it goes against the teleios theme relative to gifts.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:49 pm

I'm still thoroughly perusing links. Nobody yet has a clue what the three types of knowledge are in scripture. It's appalling.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:05 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:There has to be some explanation for godly men laying hands on people and them being healed.

Ya! There just HAS to be!

Even if it's not in scripture, you WILL find an explanation cuz....there HAS to be! Very Happy

Get your buddy down to the local kids cancer ward immediately. Or maybe it was just a one off event...that was never reported in the news....and that only a few people from his cul....erm church witnessed.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:22 pm

Strangelove wrote:Ya! There just HAS to be!

Yep, there does. Either it was the continued gifts, or it was the general healing of God. I'm fine with either. It just needs to be determined by scripture rather than doctrine built upon inference.

Even if it's not in scripture, you WILL find an explanation cuz....there HAS to be! Very Happy

Nope. I'll find the explanation relative to scripture, just as I've indicated all along. But it won't be according to YOUR feeble inference and ignorance of scripture. I'm looking for the exegetical truth, not ad hominem and leveraged insolent accusation.

Get your buddy down to the local kids cancer ward immediately.

I'm not responsible for others and how they're led by the Spirit. None of those events trump scripture if the gifts have ceased. God still instantaneously heals today, with or without the gifts. Even Cessationists are in majority agreement of that fact.

So if all the miracles I've seen are in an era when the gifts have ceased, then they're still attributable to God for His glory. I don't care which is the case. I just want the truth of scripture for faith and practice.

Unlike you, I don't just adopt a view of major doctrine without supporting it lexically and exegetically beyond mere inference. And you do that with Theology Proper, with your personal little Trinity.

Or maybe it was just a one off event...that was never reported in the news....and that only a few people from his cul....erm church witnessed.

And maybe many people blind from birth received their sight. (They did.) I'm sorry you can't even attibute the glory for such things to God, even if you bypass the gifts and give God the glory for His general healing.

The news? You mean the Zionist-controlled media? LOL. The ones who don't even report the simple truth of actual secular events and propagate false flags and all the rest? ROFLOL.

Unlike all the Word-of-Faithers, not everyone is looking for notoriety and money. And don't even talk about cults. You're an unchurched self-everything body of one. Unaccountable. Rogue. Brilliant researcher on certain topics. But an island nonetheless. And driven by gnosis.

Anyway... I haven't made reference to ANY events or experiences (except to respond to your pathetic ad hominem). God is not bound by ceased gifts, if they have. He still heals.

But scripture is all that matters. Odd how you keep skipping over my heart for truth and my intentionally humble candor to lambast me.

Maybe it's because the O/orthodox Trinity God is impotent and immanent, and couldn't and didn't create all; so you think He's too impotent to heal, whether through gifts or in general.

Sorry for the interjection. Proceed with your ad hominem. LOL.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:11 pm

Ephesians 3:
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18May be able to comprehend WITH ALL SAINTS what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Hmmm... Rooted and grounded in love; able to comprehend; knowing the love of Christ; which passeth knowledge... that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (EPIGNOSIS) of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (didaskalia), by the sleight of men, and cunny craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto to the edifying of itself in love.

Hmmm... Perfecting the saints: Till we ALL come; to the EPIGNOSIS of the Son of God (that's what supercedes gnosis); perfect (teleios) man; fullness again. Evidently, maturity and fullness are connected.

This is about the overall maturity of the body. It's all directly related to 1Corinthians 12-14.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine (logos) of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (teleios); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine (didaskalia) of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment,

Teleios is about the maturity of the body of Christ. The entire theme of teleios for man is about love abounding in epignosis to comprehend and come to maturity and a fullness.

That which is perfect is neither the Second Advent nor the last of the canon's authorship. It's the completeness and maturity of the body of Christ in unity and understanding, having epignosis supercede gnosis to know the lenght, width, height, breadth of Him.

And that's kinda hard to do when the body's stuck on God being three "persons" and being too impotent to create ALL. In a foundational way, it always comes back to Theology Proper.

But... If somehow the teleios of the body has already come relative to the canon, then there is some validity to considering the Cessation view, which is what I'm revisiting.

But casual 5yo inference followed by ad hominem drivel isn't gonna provide any answers that really matter. And such tactics just outline the void illustrated by all the passages above. No love. No abounding of love in epignosis. No fullness. No comprehension. Etc. etc.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by Strangelove on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:12 am

PPs wrote: Yep, there does. Either it was the continued gifts, or it was the general healing of God.

Or maybe you got stung by a con job?

And just to reiterate Pauls word's....why the heck would you wanna worry yourself which it is? Forget about it...leave those childish things alone and concentrate on faith hope and charity.

But you can't do that can you? Because performing miracles just gives you the thrills dunnit?

One day you could gibber nonsense and people will think yer a prophet or apostle or summink. Exciting!

Us regular Christians will be sooo jealous.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:33 pm

Strangelove wrote:Or maybe you got stung by a con job?

Yes, I got stung by a con job... for 35 years. Now I'm not a Trinitarian, a Dispensationalist, a Cessationist, or a False Dichotomist on every point of doctrine. But I am genuinely examining the Cessation issue for many reasons.

You can't let anyone do that and be forthright and humble and honest in presenting ALL scriptural evidence. You're so biased, you don't think there's any other possibility than your 1+ year of presumed views.

You have to resort to ad hominem because your feeble attempts aren't anything resembling exegesis. You just infer your way through the text based on what you've been told or taught.

And just to reiterate Pauls word's....why the heck would you wanna worry yourself which it is?

When did Paul say that? That wasn't a reiteration. Maybe a conceptualization that you've inferred.

Forget about it...leave those childish things alone and concentrate on faith hope and charity.

I have. I've left the childish things of being tossed about my every wind of doctrine. And I doubt you even know what faith is. Most don't. OR grace. Love abounds in knowledge (EPIGNOSIS, not gnosis), so you don't even know what agape is and what it does.

You need to study the Word instead of maintaining those childish things. THE Logos over YOUR logos and any other logos.

But you can't do that can you?

I already have.

Because performing miracles just gives you the thrills dunnit?

Ummm... no. Isn't it funny how little you know about me, and yet how much you accuse and presume. Physical miracles are nothing compared to the salvation of others. That's the true miracle.

This is why you shouldn't judge hearts. But I can sure feel all the agape. ROFLOL.

One day you could gibber nonsense and people will think yer a prophet or apostle or summink. Exciting!

Not really. In fact, not at all. I pray with the understanding. Tongues is the least of the gifts. I prophesy... the Word. I function in epignosis and oida knowledge, and it's always the Word or a close paraphrase or with lexical narrative. And it's always in a teaching setting, which is my role.

That's one of the plethora of reasons I'm again revisiting this volatile topic (and dealing with your infantile condescension and disparagement). I don't seek the gifts, I seek the Giver. The Blesser, not the blessings.

I don't care about notoriety or money. I make my own living (by the provision of God), and I pay to go do whatever ministry others won't. So all I do would and could be valid with the gifts having ceased. I don't need sensationalist events to preach the Gospel and teach.

Us regular Christians will be sooo jealous.

Everybody is a regular Christian. All fitly joined together. It's you in your self-commending gnosis that vaunts your faith and practice above others.

Why do you judge others so? Other Christians aren't jealous of me. They depise me because I challenge all their false doctrines.

Ephesians 1 is one of Paul's prayers, and refers to the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge (EPIGNOSIS) of him. Because of the prefecting of the constitutional/office gifts, we're to ALL come in the knowledge (EPIGNOSIS) of the Son of God unto a perfect (teleios) man.

All I want is the Word. Amazing how you berate me for searching out the truth just because you can't support anything from the text. And I'm still searching for ANY possibility of Cessation, in spite of your tactics. I'm not deterred by men. Your bloviation will neither compel me nor avert me. Only scripture matters.

"That which is perfect" is neither the canon nor the Second Advent. Both are untenable. It's the maturity of the church. I'm searching for whether scritpure considers that to have happened or is awaited.

I'm the one who has been transparent, forthright, intentionally humble, and honest. I haven't mocked cessationists. I haven't appealed to experience (on EITHER side). All I've done is ask for exegesis.

You just need tantrum time, I suppose. I don't really know what your motives are, and I don't care to ascribe them for you. For some reason, you think your simplistic views are the status quo; and all other theological information is beneath you, or others are vaunted in pride.

God forbid, anyone fragile or unsure would come here for conversation. I'm sturdy enough to deal with you, but others might just get offended and reject anything else you have to say about ANY topic.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Or maybe you got stung by a con job?

And just to reiterate Pauls word's....why the heck would you wanna worry yourself which it is? Forget about it...leave those childish things alone and concentrate on faith hope and charity.

But you can't do that can you? Because performing miracles just gives you the thrills dunnit?

One day you could gibber nonsense and people will think yer a prophet or apostle or summink. Exciting!

Us regular Christians will be sooo jealous.

And ain't it wunnerful how you edit my posts to quote, and just respond to one small portion in limited context. I explicitly express that the Giver is more than enough without the gifts. You can't even acknowledge the honesty and significance of a Continuationist saying such things.

This ain't Salem back in the day. No burnings at the stake over false accusations.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:45 pm

Strangelove wrote:Just tell me what "childish things" means please.

1 Corinthians 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Use all the context that you like.


the PARTIAL gifts (which were all knowledge/understanding) were compared to the childish.
the COMPLETE is compared to the grown man.
God provided all His revelation, completing everything needed for the christian to grow up into a man.


see 2 Timothy 3
i saw a query - then why so many denominations: 2 reasons that i see:
Arminianism
Pentecostalism
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:52 pm

imo it is - in 1 corinth.

teleios just means complete.
it's used to refer to lots of things, including in 2 Timothy 3 - Scripture having everything needed for the man of God to be teleios.

1) if, as you agreed, it's not referring to the 2nd advent or eternal state

then it is referring to men in the body of Christ - the Body of Christ, the Church - become teleios - as a result of receiving the last words, the teleios revelation of the Will and Plan of God.
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:57 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Just to reiterate... I'm not spoiling for an argument.  I'm not attempting to veil or feign an adversarial encounter over Cessation versus Continuation.  That's anywhere and everywhere, and I can jump in the middle of dozens of ongoing debates on forums right now.

I'm looking for true exegetical evidence of Cessation and the willingness to understand and undertake the burden of proof from Cessationists.

 the burden of proof is not on cessationists.

it's on continuationists to show that the same quality and purpose and use of the gifts NEVER ceased.

OR - to give a reason why they ceased or were suppressed or disappeared, only to reappear after Azusa Street.

no one claims unbroken continuation....not even continuationists
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:03 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:It might be most interesting to see if you as Cessationists even really know what the various gifts are.  Many Continuationists don't, and they just function as they are told the gifts are.

What are the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom?  What is the gift of faith?  What are each of the gifts, specifically?

 all the gifts listed in corinth were SUPERNATURAL undeniable, instant immediate GIFTS which can be summarized as for a single PURPOSE - understanding what God was revealing in REAL TIME. confirming this was HIM WORKING and revealing.

we now have more than they did.

individuals got partial gifts.

we have everything they got, complied together as God's Final Word.
with the Holy Spirit having inspired; recorded and in us confirming and teaching i fail to see what could be lacking.
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:09 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:And here's a point as I'm reading...



But where's the second witness for 1Corintihians 13 relative to "that which is teleios" being the canon?

 1 corinth is fully self-explanatory.
paul is using hyperbole and illustration to compare one thing to another.

childish - partial gifts

complete - fullness of knowledge 

3 things abide (remain) faith hope love.

love endures forever.

no need for faith or hope in eternity.

it's pretty straight-forward for me.

i don't know why someone who says they don't have these gifts; can see the BOGUS displays of fakers; knows the gifts didn't actually continue without cessation of some duration would be so concerned with something...namely the gifts, which the ONLY evidence we have in our day is from pretenders.

it seems so obvious. but maybe not if you're in with Pentecostals.
i do get that.
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:16 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:And you're just continuing to be an inflammatory idiot because you're inept.

 Doc
don't ya love it when ppl learn from you after years of hard work and compiling the subject - run with the free gift of someone else's labors ...then turn around and claim you're an inept idiot?

mkay
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:18 pm

okay
i've seen enough.

cessationism is Biblical; obvious and perfectly in line with The Lord's ways.

3 periods of Miraculous activity:

Moses & Exodus
Elijah & Elisha
Jesus & Apostles.

now we read the record
and the Holy Spirit teaches

amen.

................

bye all.
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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:02 pm

zone wrote:

 Doc
don't ya love it when ppl learn from you after years of hard work and compiling the subject - run with the free gift of someone else's labors ...then turn around and claim you're an inept idiot?

mkay

First of all, apart from Geocentricity and a few other tidbits, I didn't learn from Doc after years of his hard work attributed to him rather than God.

Exegetically, he IS inept. What does his capability in a specific area of research have to do with that? And I'd be just fine without Geocentricity, or it would have come from another source. Doc isn't the Messiah of information that I've depended upon for my Christian walk.

I've been researching for a decade and a half. Just because I didn't have a few high points, it doesn't mean Doc is the source for all knowledge on these related topics.

I separated the two, as I always do. A lost heathen could be a Geocentrists or anti-Kabbalist, and in fact some are. I've personally met a few. And there are many pockets of such knowledge scattered about.

The problem is, because of that gnosis, there's no openness to being wrong or that the underlying Theology Proper of O/orthodoxy is wrong, among other things. There are false dichotomies of doctrine everywhere. That's part of the childish blowing with every wind of doctrine instead of the knowledge of the Son of God in unity. Sectarianism.

I don't see anyone having become a man and putting away childish things. Certainly not here. So if the gifts have ceased, they did so without accomplishing their purpose along with scripture. That's untenable.

We don't have a church that has put away childish things. Far from it. We don't have a church that functions on faith, hope, and love. There's not a whole lot of agape anywhere. It's all conditional on whether others agree on doctrine or not. Then it gets fugly. Just like here.

Few know what faith is; and few exhibit true agape. Whatever "that which is teleios" IS, it hasn't accomplished itself.

The most tenable Cessation position is that the teleios of the body of Christ is dependent upon the canon as its foundational means OF becoming teleios. That's the point I'm pursuing. But when Cessationists keep claiming the canon, it's just incorrect. Graphe is not that which is teleios.

I'll finish prowling the threads and links. I knew this could get ugly, but I'm looking for exegesis rather than concept and inference.

And you're just as convinced that God is three persons in one being as a Trinity as you are of Cessation. So that doesn't help much. The eternal heavenly realm had to come into existence somehow. The Trinity God couldn't and didn't create it and inhabit it as scripture says. Too bad everyone has missed that for 2 thousand years. The O/orthodox position is that eternity is God. But few realize that or can get their head around any of it to confirm or dispute it.

If ANYTHING exists because of ANYTHING other than the Logos of God, then God is impotent and His Word is of no effect. Might as well be a Kabbalist. In O/orthodoxy, the passive tragedy of belief is that the eternity of heaven is greater than God Himself, because it contains and constrains Him; He has His inherent existence there.

Nope. God created ALL. That includes the eternity of heaven. Otherwise, Christianity is just squabbling with all other world religions for metaphysical crumbs. God created BOTH the metaphysical and the physical. THAT's the truth, and it's actually part of the Gospel.

There was never any need for all the drama. I came here as humbly as I know how, but for exegesis rather than opinion. I sure didn't come for ad hominem, whether overt or veiled. I can get that anywhere, since agape isn't prevalent in the body any more than the hypostasis of faith which predominantly believes God is three hypostases. Maybe hope is all that remains. Nah. Scripture says otherwise.

Gnosis hasn't ceased; it's everywhere instead of epignosis and oida.

Anyway... peace.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:19 pm

zone wrote:

 1 corinth is fully self-explanatory.
paul is using hyperbole and illustration to compare one thing to another.

childish - partial gifts

complete - fullness of knowledge 

3 things abide (remain) faith hope love.

love endures forever.

no need for faith or hope in eternity.

it's pretty straight-forward for me.

i don't know why someone who says they don't have these gifts; can see the BOGUS displays of fakers; knows the gifts didn't actually continue without cessation of some duration would be so concerned with something...namely the gifts, which the ONLY evidence we have in our day is from pretenders.

it seems so obvious. but maybe not if you're in with Pentecostals.
i do get that.

I know that's your position. I'm wanting to see a second witness. Is a second witness in scripture not a valid means of confirmation or dispute? Wouldn't that be a double standard?

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:41 pm

zone wrote:
the PARTIAL gifts (which were all knowledge/understanding) were compared to the childish.
the COMPLETE is compared to the grown man.
God provided all His revelation, completing everything needed for the christian to grow up into a man.

There's no reference whatsoever to "partial" gifts. Gnosis hasn't ceased. It's everywhere instead of epignosis.

see 2 Timothy 3
i saw a query - then why so many denominations: 2 reasons that i see:
Arminianism
Pentecostalism

So... The reformed view was allegedly the original view of the Apostles and the early church? No. And I become more and more re-reformed every day in many ways. But Calvinism and Arminianism are still a false dichotomy.

And your contention is that the plethora of denominations is because of Arminianism and Pentecostalism. I suppose that leaves off all the multitude of other divisions based on other dichotomies, which is absurd.

The reason for division is that the body hasn't (in the epignosis of the Son of God) come to the teleios man individually or collecitvely. And a huge reason for that is Theology Proper, followed by all the other false dichotomies that go well beyond merely Arminianism and Pentecostalism.

Election and the gifts are FAR from the only or major divisions. Others certainly haven't come to the epignosis of the Son of God. There isn't much abounding of love in epignosis. And faith as a hypostasis is still predominantly clinging to God being three hypostases.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:02 pm

zone wrote:imo it is - in 1 corinth.

I know. It's the "imo" part that I'm getting past.

teleios just means complete.
it's used to refer to lots of things, including in 2 Timothy 3 - Scripture having everything needed for the man of God to be teleios.

1) if, as you agreed, it's not referring to the 2nd advent or eternal state

then it is referring to men in the body of Christ - the Body of Christ, the Church - become teleios - as a result of receiving the last words, the teleios revelation of the Will and Plan of God.

Then "that which is teleios is NOT the final authorship of canon. It's the body of Christ. The Word faciliates that teleios; but the Word is NOT that teleios. Big difference.

The winds of doctrine are at epic gale force. That which is teleios hasn't come. All there is is more adamant schism and division. Apart from ANY sense of Universalism and/or Relativism, there must be a unity.

The gathering point for that pseudo-unity is Theology Proper/Cosmogony and other dichotomies including the ones you mentioned. All dichotomies can be reconciled to the central truth of scripture.

All you're doing is propagating your side of dichotomies.

What might change this to some degree for Cessation would be a second witness (like YOU call for on other issues you oppose). I don't see any. So I'm left with the theme of scripture regarding teleios to be the maturity of the body of Christ. Certainly, the Word is vital for that; but the Word is NOT that. Teleios is the product of epignosis, which love abounds in and which supplants gnosis. It also forstalls any need for prophecy other than forthtelling.. And tongues cease by themselves rather than being caused to cease.

There's no teleios that can have come that has put away the childish things. The childish things are the winds of doctrine. There's still an F5-level whirlwind of those subjective dichotomies. Scripture didn't abate that whatsoever. If anything, the canon gave rise to more division over it.

That's why it can be either the death of the letter or the life of the Spirit. The Theology Proper squabbles all between final authorship and canonization of the writings. That's not much of an endorsement for teleios, since there is no Dyohypostatic Trinity and eternity isn't God.

Any view that God didn't create ALL (including the eternity of heaven) might as well be Kabbalah. Trinity is possibly THE core issue of the church not being teleios via epignosis, preferring instead the gnosis of indoctrination and dogma.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:29 pm

zone wrote:

 the burden of proof is not on cessationists.

it's on continuationists to show that the same quality and purpose and use of the gifts NEVER ceased.

OR - to give a reason why they ceased or were suppressed or disappeared, only to reappear after Azusa Street.

no one claims unbroken continuation....not even continuationists

Latent because of a measure of undemonstrated faithfulness is merely the equivalent of Jesus Christ Himself not healing many in his home town. Much more so those who only have gifts without BEING the Giver as He was. It certainly wasn't of failing of Christ when He returned to the 'hood.

Azusa Street was a hybridization, out of which came the effusive piggy-backing of obvious counterfeiting.

I certainly haven't seen much power of God in Cessationists, even for righteous living. Just as I've seen counterfeit signs mistaken for power with a false annointing.

But I guess the gift of the discerning of spirits is kaput, so there's no way to tell which spirit is which for Cessationists. Scripture doesn't address a LOT of things directly. An entire ethicality or morality cannot be determined simply by the death of the letter. Graphe is not that which is teleios. It contributes indispensably TO that which is teleios; but it's not that which is teleios.

I'm looking to scripture to see if it represents that as already having occurred or is to come. According to the lack of epignosis and agape and pistis, I don't see how that could be.

But after I finish referring to all the links, including others I'm accessing myself; I'll take it to prayer and fasting. If I come away a Cesssationist, so be it. I have no pre-intended proclivities, and can reconcile the truth either way, as always.

The one thing I've learned about my adversarial forays regarding Theology Proper, is that it's better and more effective to approach it without such a heavy sledgehammer. That's why I've softened my position and approach.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:47 pm

zone wrote: the burden of proof is not on cessationists.

Sure it is. The identification of "that which is perfect" is vital. There's no second witness for it being the canon. There IS witness for it being the perfection of the body in epignosis, etc.

it's on continuationists to show that the same quality and purpose and use of the gifts NEVER ceased.

I suppose this is just gonna be an argument from silence, since there's no historicity to indicate there weren't any gifts being demonstrated at periods of times. How would you know? Like most others, you don't really have much of a penchant for looking very scrutinously at history; and it reflects in your casual adoption of Theology Proper that depicts an impotent God.

OR - to give a reason why they ceased or were suppressed or disappeared, only to reappear after Azusa Street.

Again, how do you know? What method of recording such things around the world would have preserved such things? Even in my limited experience, little is publicized about any of the things that happened. They're unverifiable as far as the public is concerned. Only individuals can attest to them, and whomever they tell.

There's no complete answer for either "side", but silence is the bastion of the Cessationists on this issue.

no one claims unbroken continuation....not even continuationists

I do. If there was continuation, it was there even in ANY latency. Just as Rhema and Logos are present in silence without expression. It doesn't mean there is no eternal Rhema and Logos, just because God chose a specific point TO express the Divine Utterance and create ALL.

Disobedience. Ignorance. Many factors. And we don't know what happened in all venues at all times.

In any case, you're just referring to experience. Experience is invalid for either position. There must be unequivocal exegetical proof, preferably with a second witness to whatever is contended from scripture.

Unless one exhibits a double standard in that regard, which is quite common (for both sides, I might add).

I simply wonder why virtually no one can engage on these topics, discuss every last cobweb of counterpoint, and always remain open to whatever prevails in exegesis rather than preconceived concept and opinion.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:22 pm

zone wrote:

 1 corinth is fully self-explanatory.
paul is using hyperbole and illustration to compare one thing to another.

childish - partial gifts

Again with the partial gifts. Even your exegetical links indicated that which was in part was knowledge (gnosis). That which is perfect is via knowledge (epignosis).

The real chasm of disparity in understanding is because you (and virtually everyone else) have no comprehension of the simple functional lexical differences in the types of scriptural knowledge.

That's why ol' Doc thinks I'm puffed up. All he has is gnosis, which puffs up at the epignosis I've yielded to and have (along with oida). It really should be the first topic of teaching after someone repents, believes, confesses, and is baptized. Otherwise, the winds blow. Childish things. Doctrines.

Instead, most are immediately indoctrinated with a handful of paragraphs on Theology Proper and a number of other Statement of Fatih type issues as their dogma. Self-taughters aren't much better, and often worse for the lack of accountability and fellowship, etc.

The majority of scholarship is just piled on top of whatever the limited foundation is that I've illustrated above. And it's ALL denominational division. Secatarianism. Truth by degree. Subjective. Affiliation. Ideology. Philosophy. Soulical.

I'll take a consecrated and searching heart with language skills for lexical understanding. Cold, hard O/orthodoxy... isn't. O/orthodoxy is heterodox.

complete - fullness of knowledge

Yeah. Epignosis. In epignosis, we all come to the teleios man. The constituitional/office gifts do that. Obviously, scripture is the key. Obviously, scripture is what every dichotomy and schism of doctrine is based on, too.

3 things abide (remain) faith hope love.

Ultimately, yes (see the Greek syntax). But faith is a hypostasis. Any hypostasis that is focused on God as three hypostases is lacking, to say the least.

Love? Is that exuded in your every post? Are you ontologically BEING love to all others? Is the body of Christ doing so in regard to others who disagree about the winds of doctrine? Are you?

No.

love endures forever.

Because God IS love.

no need for faith or hope in eternity.

Good ol' eternity. Uncreated, self-existent eternity. That which God didn't create by His Logos, apparently. That's what O/orthodoxy says.

it's pretty straight-forward for me.

So is Trinity doctrine, and with you more adamant than ever. Ruht-roh.

i don't know why someone who says they don't have these gifts;

I have the knowledge gifts, or am yielded in equivalence if they've ceased. Tongues I won't even pursue. Since God hath given every man the measure of faith, it would be interesting to know what Cessationists thing the gift of faith was, especially contrasted to that which remains.

The majority of Continuationists don't know what the Word of Knowledge or Word of Wisdom even were. They practice some kind of weird psycho-babble in Charismatic circles. In more conservative holiness type venues, there isn't really much in the way of gifts except tongues and the demand for outward appearance. No thanks on that.

can see the BOGUS displays of fakers;

Yeah, I saw the serpents of Jannes and Jambres get gobbled up by the legitimate, too.

knows the gifts didn't actually continue without cessation of some duration

Latent. Unknown historicity. Silence.

would be so concerned with something...namely the gifts, which the ONLY evidence we have in our day is from pretenders.

Now we're back to experience. If that MUST be addressed, then legs growing out is not likely from pretenders. New uteruses (uteri?) appearing for child birth after hysterechtomies is not likely from pretenders. Same-same for many other healings. And the knowledge gifts even more so.

I'm willing to set all that aside and attribute it to God by direct means of petition and/or intercession in prayer for His glory, etc.

And there's always the issue of knowledge (gnosis) versus knowledge/knowledge (epignosis/oida).

it seems so obvious. but maybe not if you're in with Pentecostals.
i do get that.

And why the dig? Not once have I mocked Cessationists. I'm the most reasonable non-Cessationist ever, and you still feel the need to toss this in for some reason.

I WAS a Cessationist. It went right along with Trinity and Dispensationalism. I'm just making sure that no matter how many times I've revisited this, that I continue to examine the exegesis and keep my heart open.

So far, there's some good referred content. But mostly there's just dogma devoid of neturality.

If I didn't have such unconditional love for you from God Himself, I wouldn't even listen to all the adamant harshness and the rest. Even more so because you don't have ears to hear the errors of O/orthodox Theology Proper.

But I do. God has given me an overwhelming love for you in the Spirit. It's the only reason I came here. It sure wasn't for the condescension, etc.

Still reading. And yet... it doesn't seem there's much reciprocation of such respect, etc. I don't get it. But I've always had a terminal sense of loyalty of commitment to others that is often an inequity of investment on my part. I really don't know where that stands relationally.

In the end, all that matters is the singular objective truth of God by His Word and His Spirit (which aren't two additional individuated hypostases) on every topic and sub-topic. And that's all conveyed by epignosis and oida.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by zone on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:13 am

well i'm sorry you didn't find what you were looking for here on the subject, pps.

i've been discussing the subject for years, and have a ton of resources.

some of them are posted elsewhere on this forum...there's lots out there on the subject these days.

could have continued with just the few points that convinced me beyond doubt that cessationism was God's Plan. but there's too much other stuff going on in this particular discussion.

you'll figure it out, to your satisfaction, i'm sure.

if you ever do resolve it, let me know what conclusion you came to.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:04 am

zone wrote: Doc
don't ya love it when ppl learn from you after years of hard work and compiling the subject - run with the free gift of someone else's labors ...then turn around and claim you're an inept idiot?

mkay

Just showing himself up for all to see. No skin off my nose. I don't care.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:05 am

PPS wrote: I have the knowledge gifts

And the gift of modesty too!

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by Strangelove on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:28 am

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:And ain't it wunnerful how you edit my posts to quote, and just respond to one small portion in limited context.  I explicitly express that the Giver is more than enough without the gifts.  You can't even acknowledge the honesty and significance of a Continuationist saying such things.

This ain't Salem back in the day.  No burnings at the stake over false accusations.

 Huh? Your accusing me of editing your posts?

If the giver is more than enough without the gifts then why go on about it then?

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:37 am

zone wrote:well i'm sorry you didn't find what you were looking for here on the subject, pps.

I've only begun my thorough reexamination. I'm still reading and re-reading all the resources to glean every possible aspect of potential truth. I don't take this lightly. I'm quite serious about digging to the exegetial core. I am not predisposed going in.

It's not like I'm unfamiliar with the Cessation position. But there's validity to it that I'm neutral enough not to deny off-hand.

i've been discussing the subject for years, and have a ton of resources.

As have I and as do I. I'm looking for fresh resources, so I appreciate all you've posted on CC. It's exactly the type of content that can give me that added push toward neutrality that I value over dogma.

But it's no slam-dunk either way. That's what frustrates me about both "sides". Each casually dismisses anything other than their position. I almost despise the dichotomy more than EITHER view. No... I DO despise the dichotomy more.

some of them are posted elsewhere on this forum...there's lots out there on the subject these days.

Of course. Not without bias. And not from many who have a clue about the imminent NWO in any detail. And much of it is the same old rehash. Canon versus Second Advent. Few take any other position.

could have continued with just the few points that convinced me beyond doubt that cessationism was God's Plan. but there's too much other stuff going on in this particular discussion.

There doesn't HAVE to be so much other stuff going on in this discussion. Didn't I come here so transparent I was almost groveling in some sense? That shouldn't get turned around into me egomaniacally wanting to be a gibberish and healing Superman to those I'm accused of viewing as spiritual peasants or something. Nothing has to degenerate. No threads need to be started in the bashing section. This can be an adult discussion of all counterpoints from either perspective.

you'll figure it out, to your satisfaction, i'm sure.

I'm yielding this to the Spirit and the Word, likely with abstinence from food intake for a bit. All the more reason I don't appreciate the juvenile novice ad hominem. I'm not playin'.

if you ever do resolve it, let me know what conclusion you came to.

zone

First, I'll tell you what has prompted this in earnest again, though I'm constantly seeking truth and abhor the counterfeit gifts. I've recently begun prison ministry again, and some of the others in the overall schedule are Vineyard guys that I have to meet with at times. One is just ignorant of the extremes of Kundalini and all the rest. The other is an allegedly converted Hindu from India that is obviously and overtly hybridizing the Christian faith with Guruism and Universalism utilizing scripture and every doctrine of the faith.

I don't even think he's aware of it himself, he's so deceived. But I've got to provide teaching and preaching that will unravel and disanull all that. I trust God for the content and the results; but I still have an accountability to provide the truth.

I'll certainly let you know what conclusions I'm led to. I do appreciate your tone in this post. Hopefully you recognize my sincerity and my issues with the dichotomy itself. Cessation would have to be predicated upon the epignosis that brings teleios rather than the canon itself. I'll trust the Spirit to sort it out exegetically. Both sides have screwed it all up.

I'm even gonna spend time conversing locally with some Cessationist Pastors (Dyohypostatic Trinitarians, no less). Unlike the majority of humans, I WILL be divested of ALL inherent bias as I search this out again. I've either tossed out too much baby with bathwater; or Jannes' and Jambres' staff-serpents are gonna get devoured. I truly don't care which way it goes. All I want is truth.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:42 am

Strangelove wrote:

Just showing himself up for all to see. No skin off my nose. I don't care.

Ummm... It's not like you're my mentor and the arbiter of all spiritual truth by any measure.

Why so arrogant? Did you originate Geocentricity? No. You accessed others' work. Why take the credit?

I appreciate the Geocentricity resources. They're not vital to salvific faith. And they're not original to you. All you've done is convey them and forward them. Why act like you're all that?

God provided. Why not give Him the glory?

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:54 am

Strangelove wrote:

And the gift of modesty too!

There you go again, excerpting my posts to inflict ad hominem.

It's a good thing you came up with Geocentricity so everybody could have your personal proprietary information.

Dude, nothing you've posted is original. It's compiled from others' work. You have basic facts and google, just like all of us. Even though I appreciate you as the introduction point to seriously examining Geo versus Helio, you're just a researcher like any of the rest of us.

But you don't even know who your God is. You think He's three persons, just like the majority who believe eternity is God, whether they've ever really considered it or not. Your God is too impotent to have created ALL.

You've compiled info. If it weren't for others, you wouldn't know any of it. You didn't originate any of the material, you just accessed it and spent time understanding it.

So don't toss out modesty ad hominem. I stated a fact. I have been obedient to the Word to comprehend the three knowledges. Confident assurance of God's Logos is not an issue of arrogance or modesty. It's about obedience and His faithfulness. It's grace. Not one bit of me. All God.

You just think all knowledge is puffed up because yours is. I'm nothing. Only His grace is something... everything.

You don't have to be like this.

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Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:11 am

Strangelove wrote: Huh? Your accusing me of editing your posts?

I suppose "excerpting" is a more appropriate term of description. In any case, you skip relevant portions of what I post (including transparency and intentional humility) to gig with ad hominem because all you have is inferential concepts.

If the giver is more than enough without the gifts then why go on about it then?

Because scripture needs to be exegeted rather than taking a position based on casual inference. Just like the false Trinity doctrine.

The men who brought me to faith out of indoctrination are true men of God. They live virtually as Jesus walked. They don't teach the false perfection doctrine, but they model teleios far beyond anyone else I've seen. It was that fruit that opened my heart to hear the Rhema.

I don't see that fruit in ANY Cessationists' lives. None. Most are bound by the death of the letter. No real power to live righteously. Frustrating grace. Squandering that which was imputed to them by faith.

I see the example of the majority of Cessationists I've known and meet. I see the same issues with all the Charismatics at the other end of the scale. Same-same.

Unlike you and most others, I seek the truth over dichotomies. And ALL things MUST be reconciled to the truth.

And agape. I look for agape. The great love wherewith He hath loved us. Laying down one's psuche (life) for others. The example of Cessationists speaks much louder than their doctrine, and it's a hindrance.

Not much Giver there. That's why I have to set all that aside, including your drivelous attacks. None of that experience matters. Only the Word. But you misrepresent it, so I'll be searching it myself in the original languages instead of others' mauled and untranslated English for inferred concepts.

You didn't originate Cessation, either; so it won't reflect on you either way.

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