Oscar?

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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Tue May 08, 2012 11:14 am

Strangelove wrote:See the playbook for oscars relativistic dialectics here:

LINK: http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/georges_metanomski01.htm

"in the human domain absolute propositions are equally absurd, but we lack an authority, a humanistic Galileo, or Einstein, to reinforce this truth. Consequently, he conceived the idea of extending the relativity principle over the entire human universe of discourse."

"As a rule, the obsolete SPECIFIC DOMAIN comes to its apogee when it is still socially, but no more intellectually ruling. All established institutions are still founded upon obsolete principles, the new domain manifests itself via a few individuals such as Copernicus, Galileo, Keppler......"

"WE LIVE CURRENTLY AMID THE EPISTEMOLOGICAL REVOLUTION.

According to our definition this means that EPISTEMOLOGY became unofficially the SPECIFIC DOMAIN of our time, that the social, scientific and technological development have revealed new aspects of existence which cannot more be grasped and investigated with help of Logic, but require some other more conform context."

"Relativistic Dialectic is an attempt to define the essentials of applied EPISTEMOLOGY and to show how it allows us to investigate and to solve problems which appear to Logic as untreatable contradictions."

untreatable contradictions
untreatable contradictions
untreatable contradictions
untreatable contradictions

LOLZ! Like all scientific evidence pointing to a stationary Earth!

wow! good score Doc!Arrow

"According to our definition this means that EPISTEMOLOGY became unofficially the SPECIFIC DOMAIN of our time, that the social, scientific and technological development have revealed new aspects of existence which cannot more be grasped and investigated with help of Logic, but require some other more conform context."

what chutzpah!

i've been looking at some of their internal communications as well.

will post in The Dialectic Process
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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Tue May 08, 2012 11:36 am

oscarkipling wrote:
I dont understand how this is confirmation by the government? This paper was not produced, funded or published - by any government. .



really? here's the link again (see the little gov in the hyperlink? that mean gubmint oscah. k? now you know):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082100


Welcome to NCBI


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oscarkipling wrote:I dont understand how this is confirmation by the government? This paper was not produced, funded or published published by any government.


was the paper published by the US gov't, oscar?

oscarkipling wrote:This is a paper was authored by Mark Purdey, and published in the non-peer reviewed journal "Medical Hypothesis". Pubmed is a government database of medical journals and texts, like the library of congress is a government operated and maintained archive. Simply being in the library of congress, or PubMed is not an explicit or implicit endorsement of the content by the government. So, to claim that this is government support for his or your claims is simply wrong.

Welcome to NCBI


The National Center for Biotechnology Information advances science and health by providing access to biomedical and genomic information.

oscarkipling wrote: Now having said that, the claim that aerosolized barium is used in military radar/radio tests was interesting enough for me to go see if I could find some info on such tests. Sure enough i was able to find several papers that concern ionosphere barium releases, I have yet to read them all but its enough to confirm that there have been at least some releases of barium in the atmosphere (ionosphere).

well that's cool.
but.....our claim wasn't interesting enough for you to go see if you could find info? even after days of discussion?

we had to go 10 rounds being stonewalled and dismissed? s'okay - we're used to the uninformed ridiculing us as conspiracy theorists and extremists...until they actually bother to look.

anyway...keep us informed if you find anything interesting:D

oscarkipling wrote:So, while I cannot say that at this point the claims that the pictures are anything more than contrails, it looks like its feasible that there could be some aircraft releasing barium into the atmosphere, but of course i'm going to read these papers first before i come to any conclusions.

that's just as it should be. that's what WE DID.



oscarkipling wrote:
I dont know any more about chem-trails than you do, at least not about their supposed purpose and composition, and deployment. I honestly dont think they exist, I think that water you are seeing is water vapor with some carbon dioxide and maybe a little bit of complex hydrocarbons. I apologized yesterday for trolling you, it was immature, but everything I've seen about chem-trails could be explained by vapor and wind, save maybe the claims that they precipitate out of the atmosphere in appreciable amounts, leaving significant amounts of barium, sodium and or rubidium titanate. I knew just enough about it to mess with you, which was wrong of me.

do you think you just may in the future consider that some folks have already done what you're just now doing, and they actually might have some valid information/theses...with documentation?
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Tue May 08, 2012 2:49 pm

zone wrote:


really? here's the link again (see the little gov in the hyperlink? that mean gubmint oscah. k? now you know):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082100


Welcome to NCBI


The National Center for Biotechnology



US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health



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National Institutes of Health, Health & Human Services
Freedom of Information Act, Contact Us



was the paper published by the US gov't, oscar?



Welcome to NCBI


The National Center for Biotechnology Information advances science and health by providing access to biomedical and genomic information.


Okay, I think you're wrong on this point, and I explained why I believe you are wrong....you seem to disagree, so I'll leave it at that.


zone wrote:

well that's cool.
but.....our claim wasn't interesting enough for you to go see if you could find info? even after days of discussion?

It was interesting, and I did in fact try to find information that could substantiate the idea that barium could be especially useful as a holographic projection "surface"
in the atmosphere. It didn't sound plausible to me from the beginning, but I did look around, and I didn't find anything outside of believers in the blue-beam project proposing the idea...so my incredulity on that point remained (and still remains). The reason I found the radio/radar angle interesting is because it did sound plausible to me, but more importantly it was specific, and it was a claim I hadn't heard before. I think you are confusing the fact that I didn't immediately accept your claims or find you evidences to be coherent or compelling with the idea that I didn't at least try to see if they had a seed of truth to them....which I did.

zone wrote:
we had to go 10 rounds being stonewalled and dismissed? s'okay - we're used to the uninformed ridiculing us as conspiracy theorists and extremists...until they actually bother to look.

anyway...keep us informed if you find anything interesting:D

Stonewalled...in my opinion stonewalling would have been to not read any of your evidences, and completely ignore you....i've done neither of those things. As far as dismissing the idea that barium is an especially useful holographic projection surface, well i cant say I dismissed it, but I've said (and you guys seem to love to point this out) I was unconvinced by the evidence proposed to support the claim. and as far as ridicule....I think we've both ridiculed each-other...but whatever that's something else entirely.


anyway why shouldn't it take 10 or 20 rounds to be confident in the truth of a claim? nvm....you dont have to answer that, but its my position it can take a long time to substantiate something to a satisfactory degree...but again just my 2 cents.




zone wrote:
that's just as it should be. that's what WE DID.
.

alright so why have you guys been treating me like some kind of liar/jerk/idiot/villian for simply taking my time , and not just believing what "You" think is enough?...again not really a question, i'm just saying.


zone wrote:
do you think you just may in the future consider that some folks have already done what you're just now doing, and they actually might have some valid information/theses...with documentation?

It's not like I think that you guys haven't done research, and come to the conclusions that you have come to. You and whomever else believes as you do might have come to valid conclusions, I've never denied this but as i have said multiple times "I" have not been convinced thus far.....you guys keep talking that very personally, as if me not being convinced at this point means that I believe thatyou couldnt possibly be right, which is not the case. I have criticized your standards of evidence, and your methodology, but obviously you could be right, and you could have valid conclusions...but I just haven't seen anything yet that satisfies my standards.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Tue May 08, 2012 3:34 pm

Oscar....lets get to the rub shall we?

Please tell us what happened on 9-11.

Are you going with the official government conspiracy theory? Is it convincing enough for you? Does its logic satisfy your standards?

Is their story coherent enough? Is it compelling? etc etc etc......

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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Tue May 08, 2012 7:55 pm

oscarkipling wrote:
Okay, I think you're wrong on this point, and I explained why I believe you are wrong....you seem to disagree, so I'll leave it at that. ....but I just haven't seen anything yet that satisfies my standards.

<< gov't logo. means gov't site and/or endorsement.



okay Oman.
keep us updated if you find any interesting stuff.


oh...oscar...


like Doc asked,
what happened on 9-11?
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Tue May 08, 2012 8:48 pm

Strangelove wrote:Oscar....lets get to the rub shall we?

Please tell us what happened on 9-11.

Are you going with the official government conspiracy theory? Is it convincing enough for you? Does its logic satisfy your standards?

Is their story coherent enough? Is it compelling? etc etc etc......


I didn't realize that 9/11 was the rub. Anyway, yes the general idea that terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several building is what I believe, although its not outside of the realm of possibility that some government agencies were complicit or at least incompetent in regards to these terrorists. I've read alot of 9/11 theories, but the one that I find most convincing is the one that invlves planes, buildings terrorists and copious amounts of unnecessary deaths.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Tue May 08, 2012 8:55 pm

oscarkipling wrote:I didn't realize that 9/11 was the rub. Anyway, yes the general idea that terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several building is what I believe, although its not outside of the realm of possibility that some government agencies were complicit or at least incompetent in regards to these terrorists. I've read alot of 9/11 theories, but the one that I find most convincing is the one that invlves planes, buildings terrorists and copious amounts of unnecessary deaths.

Which terrorists?

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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 pm

oscarkipling wrote:the general idea that terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several building is what I believe.

what makes you believe terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several buildings?
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Tue May 08, 2012 9:48 pm

zone wrote:
<< gov't logo. means gov't site and/or endorsement.

I never contended that pubmed wasn't a government run site, that's pretty obvious, but it is a compendium of medical journals. Anyway, you've already heard my argument, but dont take my word for it, why dont you call up the PubMed help-desk and ask them directly "if an article/journal is found in the Pubmed Database does this mean that its contents are fully supported, endorsed and/or acknowledged as truth and/or scientific fact by the united states government?", I'm sure you'll be surprised by the answer.

PUBMED customer service:

1-888-346-3656

they were friendly and informative when I called.


zone wrote:
okay Oman.
keep us updated if you find any interesting stuff.


oh...oscar...


like Doc asked,
what happened on 9-11?

well so far I've not found a single case where barium was released below the ionosphere (minimum 85km) on purpose (I did find at least one case where it was released at 60km allegedly by mistake). These altitudes are well outside of the flight ceiling of any conventional planes (max ~40km and that's a world record), so releasing barium into the ionosphere from airliners or even military cargo planes, or jets is not a reasonable possibility. These tests appear to be primarily carried out by rockets for release at these altitudes. coincidentally the barium released into the ionosphere would probably not be visible to the naked eye and the amounts released appear to be in the 10's of kilograms range...at those altitudes and amounts it precludes any reasonable possibility of the chemicals precipitating to the earth's surface in a small concentrated area....the coverage area is more likely to be in the 100's of square kilometers an not concentrated in anyone's "back yard". At this time I find that atmospheric barium releases for the purposes of radar/radio (ionospheric) testing do not fit the criteria for the proposed properties of chem-trails.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Tue May 08, 2012 9:56 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Which terrorists?

al-Qaeda possibly in conjunction with other organizations.

zone wrote:
what makes you believe terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several buildings?

you know the story, and the investigations led by American and allied intelligence and LEA's found that the hijackers were connected to al-Qaeda, and Osama Bin Laden claimed responsibility for the attacks.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 10:16 am

i have a few hours this morning before surgery and am distracting myself by posting to counter your ridiculous assertions (or lack thereof) on chemtrails and 9-11.....ok?

~

oscarkipling wrote:why dont you call up the PubMed help-desk and ask them directly "if an article/journal is found in the Pubmed Database does this mean that its contents are fully supported, endorsed and/or acknowledged as truth and/or scientific fact by the united states government?", I'm sure you'll be surprised by the answer.

PUBMED customer service:

1-888-346-3656

they were friendly and informative when I called. .

okay.
the assumption being the US gov't is honest about much of anything.
you can believe anything on PUBMED is probably bunk, since the US gov't remains unconvinced that such information is either true or not true.

you can deny that PUBMED is a cooperative venture between the bigMed complex and gov't. you can deny the USA is currently a fascist state (Gov't works for the Corporation). i don't care, really, since you're either deceiving or ill-informed.

oscarkipling wrote:well so far I've not found a single case where barium was released below the ionosphere (minimum 85km) on purpose (I did find at least one case where it was released at 60km allegedly by mistake). These altitudes are well outside of the flight ceiling of any conventional planes (max ~40km and that's a world record), so releasing barium into the ionosphere from airliners or even military cargo planes, or jets is not a reasonable possibility. These tests appear to be primarily carried out by rockets for release at these altitudes. coincidentally the barium released into the ionosphere would probably not be visible to the naked eye and the amounts released appear to be in the 10's of kilograms range...at those altitudes and amounts it precludes any reasonable possibility of the chemicals precipitating to the earth's surface in a small concentrated area....the coverage area is more likely to be in the 100's of square kilometers an not concentrated in anyone's "back yard". At this time I find that atmospheric barium releases for the purposes of radar/radio (ionospheric) testing do not fit the criteria for the proposed properties of chem-trails.

i see.
please cite your sources. with titles.

thank you.

carrying on...let's put barium to the side for a moment. let's talk about sulphur.





Oscar:
do you know who/what The Royal Society is?

what do you make of their thesis that man (CO2) is responsible for global warming?

have you done enough research to determine if global warming really even exists?

why do these 'scientists' continually talk about global/geo engineering if they aren't doing it or don't plan to? do they like the idea of "fake clouds"?

"Fake clouds among ideas in Royal Society papers"

~

Extreme and risky action the only way to tackle global warming, say scientists· Geo-engineering 'better than doing nothing'

· Fake clouds among ideas in Royal Society papers

David Adam, environment correspondent
The Guardian, Monday 1 September 2008

They call for more research on geo-engineering options to cool the Earth, such as dumping massive quantities of iron into oceans to boost plankton growth, and seeding artificial clouds over oceans to reflect sunlight back into space.

Writing the introduction to a special collection of scientific papers on the subject, published today by the Royal Society, Brian Launder of the University of Manchester and Michael Thompson of the University of Cambridge say: "While such geoscale interventions may be risky, the time may well come when they are accepted as less risky than doing nothing."

Martin Rees, president of the Royal Society, said: "It's not clear which of these geo-engineering technologies might work, still less what environmental and social impacts they might have, or whether it could ever be prudent or politically acceptable to adopt any of them. But it is worth devoting effort to clarifying both the feasibility and any potential downsides of the various options. None of these technologies will provide a 'get out of jail free card' and they must not divert attention away from efforts to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/01/climatechange.scienceofclimatechange2

....

Geoengineering wiki

Alternatively, solar radiation management techniques (SRM),[2] 'Reflective Approaches' (RA), [6] do not reduce greenhouse gas concentrations, and can only address the warming effects of carbon dioxide and other gases; they cannot address problems such as ocean acidification, which are expected as a result of rising carbon dioxide levels. Examples of proposed solar radiation management techniques include the production of stratospheric sulfur aerosols, which was suggested by Paul Crutzen,[7] space mirrors, and cloud reflectivity enhancement. Most techniques have at least some side effects.





Cloud reflectivity modification is a proposed process of altering clouds to make them more or less reflective, in order to change their effect on climate.

Synoptic cirrus clouds may be capable of modification to reduce their lifetime and hence their net positive radiative forcing (opposite to the low-cloud scheme), using seeding mechanisms distributed by airliners.[26] It is believed that the synoptic cirrus in the upper troposphere are formed by homogeneous nucleation, resulting in large numbers of small ice crystals. If ice nuclei are introduced into this environment, the cirrus may instead form by heterogeneous nucleation. If the concentration of ice nuclei is tuned such that the resulting cloud particle density is less than for the natural case, the cloud particles should grow larger due to less water vapor competition and attain higher settling velocities. The net effect should be a reduced optical thickness for outgoing infrared radiation and a reduced cloud lifetime. The effects of this modification on the cloud radiative balance operate in different manner from that of the marine stratocumulus cloud brightening scheme. Instead of increasing the incoming shortwave reflectivity and lifetime of the cloud in order to increase the net radiative cooling effect, the outgoing infrared reflectivity and lifetime are reduced thereby decreasing the net radiative heating effect of cirrus. This authors claim that this scheme is sufficient to reverse the warming caused by a doubling of CO2.
wiki



oscar: are mainstream 'scientific' communities either actually carrying out, or planning to carry out cloud seeding....by using airliners?

does it logically follow that what is discharged by the airliners is not water vapour, but is a chemical cocktail intended to alter natural processes?


Last edited by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 10:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 10:25 am

continuing the discussion over here:

Operation Cloverleaf and other evils
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 09, 2012 11:15 am

oscarkipling wrote:al-Qaeda possibly in conjunction with other organizations.

zone wrote:
what makes you believe terrorists conspired and executed a plan to crash planes into several buildings?

you know the story, and the investigations led by American and allied intelligence and LEA's found that the hijackers were connected to al-Qaeda, and Osama Bin Laden claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 am

please detail who/what al-Qaeda is.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 2:42 pm

OSCAR - go to Operation Cloverleaf and debunk:

Solar radiation management[1] (SRM) projects are a type of geoengineering which seek to reflect sunlight and thus reduce global warming.[2] Examples include the creation of stratospheric sulfur aerosols....

Reflective aerosols or dustMethods based on increasing the aerosol content in the lower stratosphere for climate modification were proposed by a Russian scientist, Budyko.[21]

United States Patent 5003186 suggested that tiny metal flakes could be "added to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude."

Alternative proposals, not known to have been published in peer-reviewed journals, include the addition of silicon compounds to jet fuel to make silicon dioxide particles in the exhaust.[22]

A more sophisticated approach, using multi-layered nanoparticles (consisting of aluminum and barium titanate), was published by David Keith in 2010. He suggests utilizing the effects of photophoresis to increase the amount of time the aerosols stay airborne.[23]

wiki

~

i will, like Doc be waiting to see your evidence for your 9-11 conspiracy theory.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Wed May 09, 2012 2:44 pm

OSCAR -



Strangelove wrote:
Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

BUMP
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 6:04 pm

zone wrote:i have a few hours this morning before surgery and am distracting myself by posting to counter your ridiculous assertions (or lack thereof) on chemtrails and 9-11.....ok?

I hope all goes well with your surgery, and your recovery is speedy.


zone wrote:

okay.
the assumption being the US gov't is honest about much of anything.
you can believe anything on PUBMED is probably bunk, since the US gov't remains unconvinced that such information is either true or not true.

you can deny that PUBMED is a cooperative venture between the bigMed complex and gov't. you can deny the USA is currently a fascist state (Gov't works for the Corporation). i don't care, really, since you're either deceiving or ill-informed.

No, you claimed that because the papers you posted were included in the PUBMED database that it is endorsed or affirmed by the US government as true...I am simply pointing out that this is not the position that they hold on the contents of their database, just as a library has books but does not have a position on the veracity of the contents of those books..its a place where books/articles and such are gathered together for accessibility. I never claimed that the papers you posted were "bunk" because inclusion in pubmed is not a government endorsement, I objected to your claim that being included on the Pubmed database is a government endorsement. When it comes to the Papers that you posted, I now believe that barium is/was released into the atmosphere for testing, so the author's assertion is not incorrect to that end. I am not well versed enough in the biology/biochemistry that was dealt with in the papers to say if the medical aspects were "bunk" or not, at least to me it seems plausible that high environmental barium could be dangerous, but my research so far seems to indicate that ionospheric testing is probably not a significant contributor to environmental barium.

zone wrote:
i see.
please cite your sources. with titles.

thank you.

http://tinyurl.com/8yyu54l

not all of those papers are relevant, but that's how I found a lot of them, from there I searched for individual titles, and checked out papers that were referenced in the relevant papers, I didn't keep track of them, but you could follow my process if it pleases you.

zone wrote:
carrying on...let's put barium to the side for a moment. let's talk about sulphur.





Oscar:
do you know who/what The Royal Society is?

what do you make of their thesis that man (CO2) is responsible for global warming?

have you done enough research to determine if global warming really even exists?

why do these 'scientists' continually talk about global/geo engineering if they aren't doing it or don't plan to? do they like the idea of "fake clouds"?

"Fake clouds among ideas in Royal Society papers"

~

Extreme and risky action the only way to tackle global warming, say scientists· Geo-engineering 'better than doing nothing'

· Fake clouds among ideas in Royal Society papers

David Adam, environment correspondent
The Guardian, Monday 1 September 2008

They call for more research on geo-engineering options to cool the Earth, such as dumping massive quantities of iron into oceans to boost plankton growth, and seeding artificial clouds over oceans to reflect sunlight back into space.

Writing the introduction to a special collection of scientific papers on the subject, published today by the Royal Society, Brian Launder of the University of Manchester and Michael Thompson of the University of Cambridge say: "While such geoscale interventions may be risky, the time may well come when they are accepted as less risky than doing nothing."

Martin Rees, president of the Royal Society, said: "It's not clear which of these geo-engineering technologies might work, still less what environmental and social impacts they might have, or whether it could ever be prudent or politically acceptable to adopt any of them. But it is worth devoting effort to clarifying both the feasibility and any potential downsides of the various options. None of these technologies will provide a 'get out of jail free card' and they must not divert attention away from efforts to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/01/climatechange.scienceofclimatechange2

....

Geoengineering wiki

Alternatively, solar radiation management techniques (SRM),[2] 'Reflective Approaches' (RA), [6] do not reduce greenhouse gas concentrations, and can only address the warming effects of carbon dioxide and other gases; they cannot address problems such as ocean acidification, which are expected as a result of rising carbon dioxide levels. Examples of proposed solar radiation management techniques include the production of stratospheric sulfur aerosols, which was suggested by Paul Crutzen,[7] space mirrors, and cloud reflectivity enhancement. Most techniques have at least some side effects.





Cloud reflectivity modification is a proposed process of altering clouds to make them more or less reflective, in order to change their effect on climate.

Synoptic cirrus clouds may be capable of modification to reduce their lifetime and hence their net positive radiative forcing (opposite to the low-cloud scheme), using seeding mechanisms distributed by airliners.[26] It is believed that the synoptic cirrus in the upper troposphere are formed by homogeneous nucleation, resulting in large numbers of small ice crystals. If ice nuclei are introduced into this environment, the cirrus may instead form by heterogeneous nucleation. If the concentration of ice nuclei is tuned such that the resulting cloud particle density is less than for the natural case, the cloud particles should grow larger due to less water vapor competition and attain higher settling velocities. The net effect should be a reduced optical thickness for outgoing infrared radiation and a reduced cloud lifetime. The effects of this modification on the cloud radiative balance operate in different manner from that of the marine stratocumulus cloud brightening scheme. Instead of increasing the incoming shortwave reflectivity and lifetime of the cloud in order to increase the net radiative cooling effect, the outgoing infrared reflectivity and lifetime are reduced thereby decreasing the net radiative heating effect of cirrus. This authors claim that this scheme is sufficient to reverse the warming caused by a doubling of CO2.
wiki



oscar: are mainstream 'scientific' communities either actually carrying out, or planning to carry out cloud seeding....by using airliners?

does it logically follow that what is discharged by the airliners is not water vapour, but is a chemical cocktail intended to alter natural processes?

I think that they are definitely considering it as a possible short term solution to global warming. The thing is, it doesn't matter if global warming is caused by man or not for this solution to possibly be helpful in maintaining a certain environment. Now I also think it would be utterly irresponsible and premature to start any sort of large scale implementation of SRM, as it could have unforeseen consequences, more research is needed imo.

It does not logically follow that because this is being considered as a solution, that its actually being implemented. on a related note it does not logically follow that if they are currently doing this that they are doing it with the intention of projecting holographic images in the sky. Moreover barium titanate is one of those forms of barium that does not appear to be very toxic or possibly non toxic (although I think in depth testing should be done before they star releasing it into the atmosphere in the amounts that would be effective for this plan)

http://www.angstromsciences.com/products/pvd-materials/pvd-materials-list/b/msds/Barium-Titanate-MSDS.pdf

http://datasheets.scbt.com/sc-239279.pdf (note this also refers to soluble forms of barium, which barium titanate is not)
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 6:08 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

First off you can find the "official " story anywhere, and presumably you are familiar with it, and are not convinced by it so presenting a bunch of stuff you already know feels like an exercise in futility. Now , as you've implored me before, "get to the point", how does 9/11 prove/relate to chemtrails.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 6:09 pm

zone wrote:please detail who/what al-Qaeda is.

read the wiki.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 6:09 pm

zone wrote:OSCAR - go to Operation Cloverleaf and debunk:

Solar radiation management[1] (SRM) projects are a type of geoengineering which seek to reflect sunlight and thus reduce global warming.[2] Examples include the creation of stratospheric sulfur aerosols....

Reflective aerosols or dustMethods based on increasing the aerosol content in the lower stratosphere for climate modification were proposed by a Russian scientist, Budyko.[21]

United States Patent 5003186 suggested that tiny metal flakes could be "added to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude."

Alternative proposals, not known to have been published in peer-reviewed journals, include the addition of silicon compounds to jet fuel to make silicon dioxide particles in the exhaust.[22]

A more sophisticated approach, using multi-layered nanoparticles (consisting of aluminum and barium titanate), was published by David Keith in 2010. He suggests utilizing the effects of photophoresis to increase the amount of time the aerosols stay airborne.[23]

wiki

~

i will, like Doc be waiting to see your evidence for your 9-11 conspiracy theory.


as i said before, i am unaware of this plan actually being carried out.


anyway lets look at the end of David Kieth's paper


"


Disadvantages and Uncertainties.


Long particle
lifetimes may be a disadvantage as it makes geoengineering less easily
reversible than is the case with short-lived
particles. This risk could be mitigated by
choosing particle designs with shorter lifetimes for testing and initial
deployment.
Given the presence of hard-UV flux and reactive
atomic oxygen found in the mesosphere, it should be easy to design
short-lived
particles; design and fabrication of long-lived
particles will likely be the engineering challenge.


Unresolved issues include (i) the ability to fabricate and deploy such particles at reasonable cost, (ii) the ability to predict the distribution of particles given the complex interplay of photophoretic motion, gravitational
settling and advection by the winds of the middle atmosphere, and, of course, (iii) predicting the effectiveness and risks of climate engineering however the alteration in radiative forcing is achieved.


Finally, although use of engineered
particles may offer substantial advantages over sulfate aerosols as a
means to manipulate
radiative forcing of climate, there is a
corresponding disadvantage: We lack the direct natural analog provided
by volcanic
injection of SO2. This lack of analog means that we should be more concerned about unexpected side effects, unknown unknowns, and consider
how a careful progression from testing to monitored subscale deployment could constrain the risks."



and

"The Cost of Engineered Particles.


Is it possible to fabricate such particles at sufficiently low cost? Any definitive answer would, of course, require a sustained
broad-based research effort."


and"These scaling calculations certainly do not prove that nanoscale
particles for climate engineering could be successfully manufactured
and deployed
. They do suggest that the
possibility of doing this over the coming decades cannot be dismissed.
"

and
"Any climate engineering scheme will only partially and imperfectly compensate for the climatic impacts of GHGs, and it will
likely impose significant risks of its own.
"


":





Limitations of Solar Radiation Management.


Whether or
not the ideas proposed here prove to be fruitful,
it seems likely that
some method will eventually allow humanity
to manipulate the solar forcing of climate at
low cost and with few side effects arising directly from the system
used scatter
solar radiation. Such an ability would
provide a powerful tool to reduce the risks of climate change, but it
cannot possibly
solve all the problems arising from the
growing burden of anthropogenic CO2 (8). Although a reduction in insolation can compensate for the effect of increased CO2
on the global-average surface temperature, it will necessarily reduce
radiant energy fluxes at the surface and this will,
in turn, reduce the export of latent heat
resulting in a climate with less precipitation and less evaporation than
the preindustrial
climate. Moreover, the mere knowledge of such
methods might itself be problematic if it weakened the commitment to
curb emissions
(1). Despite this, the continued acceleration of anthropogenic emissions (3) coupled with growing concern about the possibility of dangerous nonlinear responses to climate forcing (27) argue for more systematic exploration of the feasibility and risks of geoengineering (2, 29)."


Now at the very least it doesn't look like he believes that his plan has already been implemented, nor does it appear that he thinks that t should be implemented without more research and testing.


Last edited by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 09, 2012 7:19 pm

oscarkipling wrote:First off you can find the "official " story anywhere, and presumably you are familiar with it, and are not convinced by it so presenting a bunch of stuff you already know feels like an exercise in futility. Now , as you've implored me before, "get to the point", how does 9/11 prove/relate to chemtrails.

This thread is about you oscar, not chemtrails.

You continuously dump on our research with your chant of 'unconvincing'.

I want to find out more about your standards of evidence. What it would take to convince you. You have stated what you believe regarding 9-11. You are therefore convinced with the official version. I want to see if you are a fake oscar. I wanna see if you apply the same standards to your own beliefs as you do to our research.

So I ask again. Using government sources if you like, show us....

Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

911 always exposes the gatekeepers. Are you one? You seem to be ducking and weaving.

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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 8:13 pm

Strangelove wrote:
This thread is about you oscar, not chemtrails.

You continuously dump on our research with your chant of 'unconvincing'.

I want to find out more about your standards of evidence. What it would take to convince you. You have stated what you believe regarding 9-11. You are therefore convinced with the official version. I want to see if you are a fake oscar. I wanna see if you apply the same standards to your own beliefs as you do to our research.

So I ask again. Using government sources if you like, show us....

Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

911 always exposes the gatekeepers. Are you one? You seem to be ducking and weaving.

What do you mean, you already believe i'm a fake, so i dont really believe that me going around and collecting information that you already have access to is going to convince you that i'm not a "gatekeeper". As far as me ducking, its true enough, I dont really want to talk about 9/11, nor do I have any real desire to defend my position on it or refute yours....if that means i'm a gatekeeper in your eyes, then fine that's what you've already insinuated about me anyway, so its status quo for us. Anyway, since i'm easily manipulated by people attacking my intellectual honesty, i'll link some things that in one way or another lead me to believe the official story (not that i ever really doubted it, but years ago, it was something that was very interesting to everyone including me)

the 9/11 comission report:

http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

Early probe by Boston globe
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/news/planes_reconstruction.htm

There is also a wiki on the process that is full of sources which you can follow if it pleases you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

FBI PENTBOM testimony
http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/penttbom

take that however you want, I still think its more interesting...and yes its more comfortable for me to talk about chemtrails...take that however you want as well.
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 09, 2012 8:19 pm

Take this however you want oscar.

Either defend your position on 911 with straight answers to direct questions (which will subsequently tell us what we need to know about your standards of evidence), or you will be banned for wasting our time and being an incorrigible hypocrite and/or a gatekeeping fraud.

Choice is yours.

Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

Last chance.

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Re: Oscar?

Post by oscarkipling on Wed May 09, 2012 8:31 pm

Strangelove wrote:Take this however you want oscar.

Either defend your position on 911 with straight answers to direct questions (which will subsequently tell us what we need to know about your standards of evidence), or you will be banned for wasting our time and being an incorrigible hypocrite and/or a gatekeeping fraud.

Choice is yours.

Please show us the compelling, convincing etc....evidence that places al-Qaeda terrorists at the crime scene.

Please place "the hijackers" at the crime scene and then connect them to al-Qaeda.

Have "the hijackers" been charged with the crime?

Last chance.

does it have to be about 9/11, can we pick another subject?
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Re: Oscar?

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 09, 2012 8:36 pm

oscarkipling wrote:does it have to be about 9/11, can we pick another subject?

Lolz!

I told you 911 was the rub.

Goodbye.

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Re: Oscar?

Post by zone on Thu May 10, 2012 1:17 pm

oscarkipling wrote:

I hope all goes well with your surgery, and your recovery is speedy.

yes, well...i see you're no longer here oscar. but thanks anyway.
are you Army, oscar? or perhaps Navy intel? i'll figure it out eventually.

~

re my surgery -

yesterday was a comedy of errors....now i enter a nightmare.

so lets see about those chemtrails.
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Re: Oscar?

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