Triune Godhead

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Tue May 29, 2012 5:54 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:As you wish.

But deep truths are to be Didactically expounded to and among those simple, human Christians who could have and share a simple understanding. Trinity replaced that with a centuries-long Dialectic. You know... 318 Bishops and and Emporer around a table, determining by consensus who and what God is. But you're not appalled by THAT; you're appalled that I dare challenge THAT.

Error misrepresenting scripture is error misrepresenting scripture. You can let Trinity off the hook for lying about scripture for Theology Proper. I won't. And it's stand against the Dialectic of man's consensus coercion, as much as anything.

The Dialectic of man deceives. Didactic truth matters.

And if scripture matters so much to you, you should be outraged at Trinity and its Dialectic deceit.

Oh, well. I'm thankful for the other priorities you have. I despise ALL Diabolical Dialectic.

Oh get over yourself PPS. You havn't didactically expounded SQUAT. Whatever that means! It probably means have really deep philosophical musings. In that case yeah...you've expounded plenty. What a tragic waste of energy.

Good grief, you have a problem with the word "persons" which, it seems, you got from A MAN you met. Does that really justify a decade of pompous and padantic research trying to flog a dead horse of a debate with fellow Christians just cuz they arn't as anal about how some words are used (or shouldn't be used) as desciptors for reflecting the God revealed in scripture as you are?

Thats it folks....the Church was completely wrong cuz Captain Semantics here has constructed a phantasmagorically complicated intralingual theosophical brainfart that has outflanked the majority trini masses (even though he admits he's a trini summink himself) and therefore the size of his cranium can increase 1 inch per month for as long as he can present himself as a scholar par excellance in the field of frikkin godhead minutia, a topic which no man could ever possibly understand fully even if he can wear Wembley Stadium as a sodding HAT!

Whether you know it or not, you are contributing to the eventual roundup of Christians. I dont give two hoots that you yourself will also be rounded up cuz, IRONICALLY, you have the same BASIC idea as most sensible Christians...that theres a trini summink goin on with our ONE GOD, it doesnt matter....you are helping the pharisees brand Christians idoloters.

Show me a thread right now anywhere in cyberspace where there are sensible Christians who say there are 3 gods in our religion.


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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue May 29, 2012 6:06 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Oh get over yourself PPS. You havn't didactically expounded SQUAT. Whatever that means! It probably means have really deep philosophical musings. In that case yeah...you've expounded plenty. What a tragic waste of energy.

Good grief, you have a problem with the word "persons" which, it seems, you got from A MAN you met. Does that really justify a decade of pompous and padantic research trying to flog a dead horse of a debate with fellow Christians just cuz they arn't as anal about how some words are used (or shouldn't be used) as desciptors for reflecting the God revealed in scripture as you are?

Thats it folks....the Church was completely wrong cuz Captain Semantics here has constructed a phantasmagorically complicated intralingual theosophical brainfart that has outflanked the majority trini masses (even though he admits he's a trini summink himself) and therefore the size of his cranium can increase 1 inch per month for as long as he can present himself as a scholar par excellance in the field of frikkin godhead minutia, a topic which no man could ever possibly understand fully even if he can wear Wembley Stadium as a sodding HAT!

Whether you know it or not, you are contributing to the eventual roundup of Christians. I dont give two hoots that you yourself will also be rounded up cuz, IRONICALLY, you have the same BASIC idea as most sensible Christians...that theres a trini summink goin on with our ONE GOD, it doesnt matter....you are helping the pharisees brand Christians idoloters.

Show me a thread right now anywhere in cyberspace where there are sensible Christians who say there are 3 gods in our religion.


I'll just write of this condescending arrogance and accusation out of appreciation for your many other ministry efforts.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Tue May 29, 2012 6:35 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:I'll just write of this condescending arrogance and accusation out of appreciation for your many other ministry efforts.

Good. When you write of it, send a copy to all your mates to show em how to fight fire with fire.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Tue May 29, 2012 8:48 pm

uh-oh. yikes...

i just woke up!
(slept alot today which is very good.... i think i'm recovering, though this regime is dreadful).


and uh...well...is everbody okay?

.....

um....pps i hadn't gone through the rest of your presentation.
i wanted to show where i agree [very much of it] and why, and also where you have real glaring inconsistencies that just can't be reconciled without filling in the gaps with your own theories. and they are there - i wanted to point to them so you might see why your model doesn't "work" as neatly as you say it does.

if you wanna finish the discussion here, that's cool. i think you have my email if you wanna do it that way. i wanted to pick up where i left off late last night and just address what you posted.

my reason for discussing it is not because i'm struggling to understand God...but to address what i see as a real problem of schism in the church over Trinity (that i think with some exceptions its unwarranted).

but...um....perhaps for now i'll go out in the sun and sit a spell with a margarita (or two).

zonesta

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Tue May 29, 2012 9:06 pm

Zone can you point me in the direction of a corner in cyberspace where level headed trinitarian Christians are saying there are 3 gods in our religion?

Are they saying this or is it just PPS reverse engineering their "descriptors" through his Trinidolatry translation machine?

G'night.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Tue May 29, 2012 10:32 pm

zone wrote:uh-oh. yikes...

i just woke up!
(slept alot today which is very good.... i think i'm recovering, though this regime is dreadful).


and uh...well...is everbody okay?


I'm quite fine personally. Brand new mercies again. Not much else matters.

.....

um....pps i hadn't gone through the rest of your presentation.
i wanted to show where i agree [very much of it] and why, and also where you have real glaring inconsistencies that just can't be reconciled without filling in the gaps with your own theories. and they are there - i wanted to point to them so you might see why your model doesn't "work" as neatly as you say it does.

if you wanna finish the discussion here, that's cool. i think you have my email if you wanna do it that way. i wanted to pick up where i left off late last night and just address what you posted.

my reason for discussing it is not because i'm struggling to understand God...but to address what i see as a real problem of schism in the church over Trinity (that i think with some exceptions its unwarranted).

but...um....perhaps for now i'll go out in the sun and sit a spell with a margarita (or two).

zonesta


Suit yourself. I'll read whatever you post. Trinity IS the schizm.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 1:33 am

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
Suit yourself. I'll read whatever you post. Trinity IS the schizm.

okay.
i'm tired.

i'll come back to this later.

its sad.
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by unclefester on Wed May 30, 2012 1:25 pm

study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU_rqm7WPPI
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 1:26 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
The spoken word is comprised of two parts: Rhema and Logos (G4487 and G3056). Though distinct, rhema and logos are inseparable. There can be no logos without rhema. Alone within all of creation, man has been delegated the capability of logos. During the Incarnation of God's Logos (upper case), Jesus spoke the logos (lower case). Also represented by the logos (lower case) are the decrees and sayings of YHVH that are conveyed directly through messengers or inspired writings. (Upper/lower case is my own differentiation for clarity, not a reference to translational practice.)

Rhema is the substance content of subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that rhema subject matter. (The following is specifically of God's Rhema-Logos.)

Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. BOTH Rhema and Logos PRECEDE THE ACT OF THE UTTERANCE.

To be spoken, Rhema-Logos is breath-borne forth from the internal depths of God's divine essence, containing the very substance of that divine essence in the external speaking forth from the internal; and that breath (Pneuma) is God's OWN Spirit.

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete divine essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed forth (exerchomai) and come (heko) from God.

mornin pps.
k...the above is hopefully where you have in your files somewhere that i can see each assertion actually laid out for us this way in scripture.
its okay if you don't have it that way, its just that without it primarily being in Holy Writ with minimal exposition or commentary from us, its just the other way around and may or may not be true.

more to the point, may or may not be critical to salvation.

i'm not unappreciative of your labours in this area (i'm going to post my own testimony of how i was led* (*http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue76.htm) over several years to understand continuationism/pentecostalism as error and deception: i was personally IN IT. and led out AND taught on the way out the who/what/when/where and how of it all.

so i do understand your passion. i just worry about severing people who identify themselves as Trinitarians...i don't think you have enough ground from which to do that...[there's a lesson in this for me as well about charis/pentes]

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
In Romans 8:3, "...God sending His OWN Son" can literally be translated "the Son of Himself." Someone recently read an exegesis of that, and after 6 months of wrestling with my view, they immediately understood all I was presenting. I include it for clarity for those it may help, but others may reject it entirely......

and so there we have it. about as simple as it gets for me.

.....

BUT - we (i) need to be pretty careful about 'going' back to/before "the beginning" and reverse engineering it all....at least i'm just not ready to do it.

we've got Christophanies and Theophanies and the Angel of the Lord and the Son talking to The Father and the Spirit testifying of Jesus....all manner of things in heaven that paul said were not lawful for him to speak about.

now i am assuming that the above things are the immanent realm you're referring to.
but i have to say that on this particular issue, every time i follow the efforts we humans make to define the Eternal God we come up short. and i've already agreed that the Trinitarian formula we've used also has problems.

for me though, the overarching question remains - WHY did God choose to use distinct identifiers between F/S/HS? and this appears to be true right back as far as we are allowed to go in the creation account! (Job has some of the coolest creation exposition from the lips of God).

anyway....i been reckoning overnight why i'm resistant (?) to such a hard line against Trinitarianism. the best i can do at this moment is to say that Trinitarians who know that we are saved by the shed Blood of Christ Our Lord Who said He was I AM; God come into the world, the Word made flesh); the Only Saviour; there are no other gods; are my brothers.

if we are all still wrestling with a clear definition of the Eternal God (including you pps because your model is not complete either), then i think it wasn't given to us!

re: your incomplete model (perhaps you have answers here but we haven't gotten to them yet) - a lingering question:

why did Father remain in Glory while the Son was here on earth? or; why aren't we told the created angels etc were left in charge while the Almighty came into creation (heaven left empty)?

see, its not that simple...at least for me. i gotta see it primarily laid out chapter and verse (with commentary where needed) not the other way around.

i guess i'm not so much arguing FOR Trinity as i am not really understanding how it can be considered damnable heresy, which is the ONLY legitimate reason for schism...which is dreadful in itself. i don't see condemnation FROM scripture concerning personalized distinctions of F/S/HS. quite the opposite.

......

multi-tasking: gonna do another thread on my personal journey into and out of charismaticism (not knowing what it was til much later), and how my position is not just one of reason and scripture but of total 100% experience as well. been right in the middle of it and saw the/an 'angel of light'....seduced away from objective truth and scripture into pure subjectivity/experientialism and worse.

will continue on here as best i can.
(plus i'm back over at CARM - my infractions have expired...CARM - the nemesis of BF muahahaa)



Last edited by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 1:52 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 1:28 pm

unclefester wrote: study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU_rqm7WPPI
hahaha Fester!
ya...sorry for my part in that.
it only hurts when i think about it!
hehe....good vid.
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 1:58 pm

Strangelove wrote:Zone can you point me in the direction of a corner in cyberspace where level headed trinitarian Christians are saying there are 3 gods in our religion?.
no doc, i can't. i searched for a long time last night.
all i find are peeps discussing the matter.

the most satisfactory Q&A i found were where people use pps' model to supplement Trinity or vs versa (this is where i am currently, and have been all along). these people were not anti-trinitarians.

the most unsatisfactory ones i found were the anti-trinis because though motivated by a right faithfulness to Monotheism, they too end up off in the boonies with another incomplete model and meanwhile have anathematized huge portions of the church over something i don't believe has been given to us in scripture: the precreation Eternal God defined and laid bare.

sigh.....

i'm a Confessional Lutheran and that's where i'm staying.

Isaiah saw Jesus high and lifted up on His throne. and yet we are told Father is a Spirit. its just not a place i'm forging alone (but i'll walk alongside those who do and see where they go with it).
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by unclefester on Wed May 30, 2012 3:05 pm

zone wrote:
hahaha Fester!
ya...sorry for my part in that.
it only hurts when i think about it!
hehe....good vid.

Nah ... I wasn't talking to anybody specifically or trying to hush any discussion. Jes' throwing my water bottle at the players from the bleachers Smile I do think though that we mere mortals often complicate the simplest of messages .... that being the gospel of forgiveness and salvation thru Christ and his love towards us. Understanding everything and anything else beyond this pales in comparison to His message of grace. I love you Zone .... and all here.

"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her." Luke 10:38-42
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 3:08 pm

unclefester wrote:
Nah ... I wasn't talking to anybody specifically or trying to hush any discussion. Jes' throwing my water bottle at the players from the bleachers Smile I do think though that we mere mortals often complicate the simplest of messages .... that being the gospel of forgiveness and salvation thru Christ and his love towards us. Understanding everything and anything else beyond this pales in comparison to His message of grace. I love you Zone .... and all here.

"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her." Luke 10:38-42


i love you too Fester.
ty for this cuz i've been martha of late.
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 3:24 pm

I'll post direct responses to your above post soon. I'm packing for another 1200-mile trip for family medical. One main thing you're missing is the pure exegesis of renderings' inherent meanings. The above lexical-type expression of Rhema and Logos is their inate definitions from the Greek. It is Trinitarian Theology that has modified the definition of Logos, not me. One can't examine others' usage and expression from their own position of culpability.

Has it ever occurred to you that my heart's purpose isn't to condemn or judge others' salvation and exhibit arrogant megalomania while beating everyone to death with reverse-anathematization for espousing Trinity?

Have you ever thought that it might be a labor of love to bring out the last bit of truth about what was mostly an unintentional subversion, and to make total correction available to those who DO have salvific faith as Trinitarians; at the same time exposing the measure of error that has left a number of Trinitarians in the same plight of false assurance I was in?

Did you ever stop to think I began my journey with gracious appeals and suggestions that only brought severe backash of accusation, judgement, and condemnation from inddoctrinated idiots who couldn't find their own theological buttocks with their own exegetical hands? And I had to steel myself to ward of all the adversarial attacks to even proceed?

I don't irrationally refer to Trinitarians as Tritheists or Idolators. Other than in response, I don't engage in ad hominem personal attack and address Trinity DOCTRINE and the general characteristic behavior of Trinitarians.

Here's the bottom line:
Trinity is impossible to support from the text itself. It's a paradox unto itself. It's an imaginary doctrine at its root. It violates scripture.

But... It has built a conceptualization that, with kenosis/perichoresis/hypostatic union band-aids, has allowed enough truth to seep through to represent salvific faith for few/some/many/most Trinis; simply because of what you and others affirm regarding Christ's Deity.

Trinity is built on the central immutable that God is three hupostases of one ousia. Scripture clearly says Jesus is the express image OF the Father's (singular) hupostasis. The Son is not another hupostasis, nor is the Holy Spirit. And nowhere is ousia remotely used in reference to God.

But... Since hupostasis and ousia were used by the various Gnostics and Philosophers as semi-synonyms with all kinds of permutations of their "personal substances", many of the ex-Gnostic/-Philosophy converted early Fathers followed Tertullian's lead of introducing hupostasis as a "legal entity" from Roman law.

It is THIS dilution that has become modern "persons" and seems so acceptable. The eternally pre-existent Logos has been transformed into an eternally pre-existent Son-"person". There IS NO Son hupostasis!! And there IS NO Holy Spirit hupostasis. THAT's the text. NOT the PhilosoGnostic overlay INTO/UPON the text based on an errant definition of hupostasis that has morphed into a distorted alternate concept.

Trinity is a possible and viable concept, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to support from the text. One hupostasis cannot be multiplied into three at the whim of those desperately seeking to quell a created god-Son of Arianism in a power struggle.

"Persons" is perpetuated by concept, not the text. Hence yours and many orhers' nebulous views of threeness. The threeness HAS to be defined to be correct. Unformulated Godhead is fine, even preferable; but Trinity is highly formulated. The problem is the concept. The conceptualization isn't impossible. God coould be three "persons". It's just that it's impossible to actually present it from the text itself. All the remaining pronouns and inference of the faulty foundation just leaves others unable to see anything else once they're "assimilated".

And tossing out "persons" isn't the answer. But if "persons" is used, it can't be three because of Heb. 1:3. Hupostasis is "person" in Trinity. To do away with it requires utilizing sonething else from the text in its place. Three whats of a what.

There IS nothing else. That's the problem. A Greek singular had been turned into an English plural. And Jesus is the express image OF THAT Greek singular rather than being another of that same Greek singular.

"Person" for Father and "Person" for Son is mutually exclusive. And taking a vague view while retaining the plural conceptualization is unfounded and unsupportable. Descriptors won't do when defining God. It can't be personalities. That's Theotes, and it's singular. It can't be any number of other pseudo-analogous descriptors, either; they're not in the text.

Jesus is the immanent singular "person" (prosopon) OF God's transcendent singular "person" (hupostasis). That's as close as "persons" can get, and it ain't Trinity.

We have fake Jews in Judaism. We have a fake God in Christendom.

All I'm trying to do is expose both and it's for the sake of helping others know Him more. The adversarial part is always initiated and perpetuated by Trinitarians.

God is NOT three hupostases. And their is no other substitution of threeness from the text, even if the English "persons" rendering has widespread perception and conceptualization as valid. It's artificial doctrine by infusion, a hybrid seed (logos) from PhilosoGnostic superimposition.

If I were Satan, it's what I'd have done. Be not ignorant of his devices.

I'm just trying to de-hybridize the seed, not declare everyone anathema. The anathema part is a Trinity trademark, and is presumed of others.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 4:05 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Trinity is built on the central immutable that God is three hupostases
of one ousia. Scripture clearly says Jesus is the express image OF the
Father's (singular) hupostasis. The Son is not another hupostasis, nor
is the Holy Spirit. And nowhere is ousia remotely used in reference to
God.

Ugh my God this is SOOOOOO ANAL it HURTS!

Its.....just....a......WOOOOOOORD DUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have ONE GOD! OK???????????????

He has revealed Himself in 3 major ways that some people like to describe as "persons"!!!!??????????? We dont have to have a sodding degree in Greek language and Roman law before we decide to use a descriptive word!

What is the big frikkin DEAL!>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!???????????????

Show me any thread online where this leads people to believe we have 3 gods in Christianity???????? Was it only you? Were you the only one dumb enough to be led so far astray by the scary trini doctrine?

Are you a cult of ONE>????????

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 4:06 pm

zone wrote:
no doc, i can't. i searched for a long time last night.
all i find are peeps discussing the matter.

the most satisfactory Q&A i found were where people use pps' model to supplement Trinity or vs versa (this is where i am currently, and have been all along). these people were not anti-trinitarians.

Well that would be quite interesting to see how Trinis are trying to absorb and hybridize my end-view. Where's the linkies?

the most unsatisfactory ones i found were the anti-trinis because though motivated by a right faithfulness to Monotheism, they too end up off in the boonies with another incomplete model and meanwhile have anathematized huge portions of the church over something i don't believe has been given to us in scripture: the precreation Eternal God defined and laid bare.

Yeah, they're all nobly trying to maintain God's true singular hupostasis and concentrate on "how" Jesus is the express image OF THAT hupostasis; but to no avail. Most put aside the Deity of Christ.

And I'm not anathematizing the church in any portions. Few/some/many/most Trinitarians aren't anathema. Orthodox Theology Proper is more incomplete than incorrect; but incorrect nonetheless. Just de-hybridize the seed by sowing the true Logos.

sigh.....

i'm a Confessional Lutheran and that's where i'm staying.

I beat a hasty retreat from Sectarianism, and I ain't goin' back.

Isaiah saw Jesus high and lifted up on His throne. and yet we are told Father is a Spirit. its just not a place i'm forging alone (but i'll walk alongside those who do and see where they go with it).

So... Is the spiritual realm uncreated or created?


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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 4:19 pm

PPS went from trinitarianism to tripartianism.

Is this subject a big waste of time or what?

What do I need to do to join your cul.....erm.....group mate? I just need to affirm that God doesnt have 3 subsinstances? Like....trinis never said He did in the first place. We just said "persons", being completely unlearned on Greek language and Roman law...just an innocent descriptor. But I guess we have to step over the line like you bud, and declare "trinitarianism" a complete heresy and get down to a decade of nitpicky pompous research right?

Ugh.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 4:20 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:I'll post direct responses to your above post soon.

~ snip

The anathema part is a Trinity trademark, and is presumed of others.
hi pps.
yes, i think know your motives. and i believe your testimony. if i've suggested anything to the contrary i couldn't have meant it. i know you're laboring out of love.

all the above re: Godhead sounds good. and i get it.
but you have blind spots too brother. you know that, right?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:....my heart's purpose isn't to condemn or judge others' salvation.... with reverse-anathematization for espousing Trinity.

no problem with it any of it EXCEPT (and its really the ONLY reason i'm engaging on this) - can you explain to me how some Trinitarians can have saving faith in spite of what you say is heresy?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
error that has left a number of Trinitarians in the same plight of false assurance I was in?

what part of the error you see led to "false" assurance?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
Did you ever stop to think I began my journey with gracious appeals and suggestions that only brought severe backash of accusation, judgement, and condemnation from inddoctrinated idiots who couldn't find their own theological buttocks with their own exegetical hands? And I had to steel myself to ward of all the adversarial attacks to even proceed?

yes, i know about this.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
I don't irrationally refer to Trinitarians as Tritheists or Idolators......

But... It has built a conceptualization that, with kenosis/perichoresis/hypostatic union band-aids, has allowed enough truth to seep through to represent salvific faith for few/some/many/most Trinis; simply because of what you and others affirm regarding Christ's Deity.

so given your belief that you were hellbound prior to rejecting Trinity, and given the above qualifier of representing salvific faith....like...its sounds as though you're saying i and others were really lucky to have fallen by chance onto an "affirmation" of Christ's Deity, and therefore [might] be saved as a result of escaping Trinitarian evil?

clear this up pps because Jesus either reveals Himself to the justified or He doesn't. we've either been granted saving faith in Him by Him for the right reasons, since its He Who saves, and the Holy Spirit testifies we are sons of God - or we're utterly deceived, blind and lost and are professing false beliefs, and resting in a false conversion, believing in a false god (as you say you were BECAUSE OF TRINITY DOCTRINE)

which is it Blake - concerning the affirmation of "i" and others - what do you REALLY believe? am i deluded and lost?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:IThe above lexical-type expression of Rhema and Logos is their inate definitions from the Greek.

There IS NO Son hupostasis!! And there IS NO Holy Spirit hupostasis. THAT's the text. NOT the PhilosoGnostic overlay INTO/UPON the text based on an errant definition of hupostasis that has morphed into a distorted alternate concept.

Trinity is a possible and viable concept, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to support from the text. One hupostasis cannot be multiplied into three at the whim of those desperately seeking to quell a created god-Son of Arianism in a power struggle.

And tossing out "persons" isn't the answer. But if "persons" is used, it can't be three because of Heb. 1:3. Hupostasis is "person" in Trinity. To do away with it requires utilizing sonething else from the text in its place. Three whats of a what.

There IS nothing else. That's the problem. A Greek singular had been turned into an English plural. And Jesus is the express image OF THAT Greek singular rather than being another of that same Greek singular.

Jesus is the immanent singular "person" (prosopon) OF God's transcendent singular "person" (hupostasis). That's as close as "persons" can get, and it ain't Trinity

i don't think i've "multiplied" the substance/essence of God into 3 anjything.

i think i've seen how the Bible makes written distinctions in WRITING, using personal pronouns for 3 somethings of God. unified in every way but manifested to US in MANY WAYS...not just 3! WHY did He CHOOSE to reveal Himself in that way? can you really say i "and otrhers" who simply READ the Bible and receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ are out of the game pps?

cuz here's what you might NOT know - you were raised in the "church" (apparently a totally apostate church from which you barely escaped) - i was NOT raised in the church, nor did i have ANY (none, zero, nothing, not any) idea what Christian theology was aside from The Lord's Prayer recited in elementary school assembly once a week until they took it away in the late 60s; and some old glittery Christmas cards i kept tucked away from my heathen parents' scrutiny.

i staggered blind and totally in sin and darkness for 40 years until i literally found myself in a last ditch attempt to beat alcohol and heroin addiction by being locked up in rehab for the 10th (?) time...this time a CHRISTIAN WOMEN'S CENTER, and held a bible in my hands, for the very first time EVER turning the pages and reading what it said.

at first the letters were blurry and i couldn't make any sense of them whatsoever...but within DAYS i understood what it was saying, BELIEVED what it said - about me and about Jesus, and Christ revealed Himself to me as both God and Saviour.

i never looked back and devoured whatever i could from that day on (i've backslidden into sin at times and had seasons of unfruitfulness, and times of little clarity - but NEVER felt i had believed in....

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:....a fake God in Christendom.

i spose i just want to know what your rock bottom truthful assessment of my spiritual condition is, basing it on my "nebulous" affirmation of Christ as Deity....

also, what do you say about the following - is it accurate?


The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5287 u(po/stasiv
Original Word Word Origin
u(po/stasiv from a compound of (5259) and (2476)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Hupostasis hoop-os'-tas-is
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 8:572,1237
Definition

a setting or placing under
thing put under, substructure, foundation
that which has foundation, is firm
that which has actual existence
a substance, real being
the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
confidence, firm trust, assurance

Translated Words
KJV (5) - confidence, 2; confident, 1; person, 1; substance, 1;
NAS (5) - assurance, 2; confidence, 2; nature, 1;


Verse Count
KJV NAS

2 Corinthians 2
Hebrews 3

2 Corinthians 2
Hebrews 3

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5287

.....

safe travelling to you pps....and mercy and comfort for your family, may the LORD bless and keep you all.

i'll watch for you posts knowing you're busy.

zone.


Last edited by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by zone on Wed May 30, 2012 4:31 pm

wow! Doc DOES get wound up! cyclops

i agree with you on this one Doc....

[tsk....i'm tryin' to post a guy with a flame-thrower but my stoopid new laptop is lame]

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 5:11 pm

PPS, is this special guy who led you into the crusade against "persons" the same dude who you claim cured an entire village of blindness?

Cuz were still waiting for substantiation over in the continuationist or cessationist? thread buddy.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Ugh my God this is SOOOOOO ANAL it HURTS!

HAHAHAHLOL! You haven't even begun to see sphincter pucker 'til you're dealing with Trinitarian scholars. What an oblivious double standard. It's okay for Trinitarians to squeeze their anterior orifices closed over every little tittle, but dare I engage in even a bit of the same and I'm at a posterioral pucker point.

And ANAL and HURTS are not good sentence partners. :-P

Its.....just....a......WOOOOOOORD DUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the problem. It's "A" word, not "THE" Word.

We have ONE GOD! OK???????????????

Yep.

He has revealed Himself in 3 major ways

Modalism.

that some people like to describe as "persons"!!!!???????????

No. It's conceptually used by many as a descriptor. But it was originally a plural definer for a singular. Describe/define God as one "person" and it's at least a minority definition.

We dont have to have a sodding degree in Greek language and Roman law

Correct.

before we decide to use a descriptive word!

If it pluralizes a singular, it's not even a valid descriptor. Describe God as a single "person" and it's acceptable.

What is the big frikkin DEAL!>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!???????????????

Truth. Scripture.

Show me any thread online where this leads people to believe we have 3 gods in Christianity????????

I've never said it did. That's your little side-rant. I'd call it a strawman, but a strawman is intentional. You're just unaware.

It does substitute a pre-existent Son for the Logos. Divine coinherent siamese triplets.

Was it only you? Were you the only one dumb enough to be led so far astray by the scary trini doctrine?

No. And Trinity isn't scary. It's just artificial to the text and stoopid.

Are you a cult of ONE>????????

According to all the fuming Trinitarians, I'm a cult of something devoid of salvific faith.

And I never believed Trinity was three Gods.

But keep calling me a cultist. I believe most everything beyond this as you do. Does that make the Eschaton Agenda a cult belief?

:-)

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 5:27 pm

Strangelove wrote:PPS, is this special guy who led you into the crusade against "persons" the same dude who you claim cured an entire village of blindness?

Cuz were still waiting for substantiation over in the continuationist or cessationist? thread buddy.

Nope. No man led me on any crusade. It was my own study of the text. Those guys hold to a simple unformulated non-Modalist oneness.

Yeah, I was going to get back to that thread after medical stuff, but now I've decided it doesn't need your scoffing scrutiny.

I'm not a NAR guy in the least. The men I'm speaking of don't need your authentication. And the charismatics and NARs hate them. You wouldn't be able to find much on them anyway. They're just plain humble men of God sharing the Gospel.

And YOU need to provide textual evidence for cessation instead of barking about the NAR freaks.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 5:39 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:HAHAHAHLOL! You haven't even begun to see sphincter pucker 'til you're
dealing with Trinitarian scholars. What an oblivious double standard.
It's okay for Trinitarians to squeeze their anterior orifices closed
over every little tittle, but dare I engage in even a bit of the same
and I'm at a posterioral pucker point.

And ANAL and HURTS are not good sentence partners. :-P

Well I'm not a trinitarian scholar so yes its all anal.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Yep, that's the problem. It's "A" word, not "THE" Word.

And whats THE word then? Tripartism?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Modalism.

You just get off on branding people with godhead heresies dont you? I've looked up "modalism" and that whole debate is totally ANAL TOO, and I'm NOT INTERESTED!

This is your forte innit? Jump on any descriptions people innocently use and then brand them with a heresy. Your a frikkin joke dude.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:No. It's conceptually used by many as a descriptor. But it was
originally a plural definer for a singular. Describe/define God as one
"person" and it's at least a minority definition.

No I'm gonna plurally define a singular cuz God is a mystery like that and our one God is generally defined that way in scripture.....so there.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:If it pluralizes a singular, it's not even a valid descriptor. Describe God as a single "person" and it's acceptable.

Virgin birth aint a valid descriptor either. It doesnt make much sense to us yoomans but its what scripture describes anyhoot.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:It does substitute a pre-existent Son for the Logos. Divine coinherent siamese triplets.

Divine coinherent siamese triplets
Divine coinherent siamese triplets

Show me this concept in a thread online. Show it or stop insinuating this rubbish.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:No. And Trinity isn't scary. It's just artificial to the text and stoopid.

If people really say that God is Divine coinherent siamese triplets then it would be stoopid, but they dont. Thats just an artificial concept that you have added to the debate. Did you believe in that silly concept? REALLY? Were you really that dumb?

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:According to all the fuming Trinitarians, I'm a cult of something devoid of salvific faith.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:And I never believed Trinity was three Gods.

OH! YOU never believed Trinity was three Gods. OH thats super rich buddy.

So you never believed that but somehow all other trini's believe that God is Divine coinherent siamese triplets!!!!!

You blow dude. Seriously, come to that bashing thread so I can really light you up.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 5:42 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Nope. No man led me on any crusade. It was my own study of the text.

Hang on a sec, I'm positive you mentioned you were shown this by a guy. I'll go and find the post if you want.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by unclefester on Wed May 30, 2012 5:49 pm

zone wrote:
---DOC----Allow me


Make this picture go away. You're making me ascared Sad
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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 5:54 pm

unclefester wrote:Make this picture go away. You're making me ascared Sad

It's turned into a flame war Fesmeister. I've called the Tripartist over to the bashing thread but he's wimpin out.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 5:54 pm

Shall we call them Trippy's? LOLZ!

Trini Vs Trippy.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 6:05 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Hang on a sec, I'm positive you mentioned you were shown this by a guy. I'll go and find the post if you want.

I DID mention it. It was a passing mention in conversations leading to my salvation. The word "persons" had nothing to do with it and my spiritual mentors make no mention of it except in response; even now.

It was my study of the text. Most of it years later.

So there. :-P

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by PneumaPsucheSoma on Wed May 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Strangelove wrote:

It's turned into a flame war Fesmeister. I've called the Tripartist over to the bashing thread but he's wimpin out.

You struck the arc. I'm just rubber asbestos.

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Re: Triune Godhead

Post by Strangelove on Wed May 30, 2012 6:07 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:I DID mention it. It was a passing mention in conversations leading to my salvation. The word "persons" had nothing to do with it and my spiritual mentors make no mention of it except in response; even now.

It was my study of the text. Most of it years later.

So there. :-P

So, its your current spiritual mentors who actually introduced you into this crusade right?

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