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Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:37 am
Technocracy is a form of government in which science would be in control of all decision making. Scientists, engineers and technologists who have knowledge, expertise or skills would compose the governing body, instead of politicians, businessmen and economists.[1] In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field.
The term technocracy was originally used to designate the application of the scientific method to solving social problems, in counter distinction to the traditional economic, political or philosophic approaches. According to the proponents of this concept, the role of money and economic values, political opinions, and moralistic control mechanisms would be eliminated altogether if and when this form of social control should ever be implemented in a continental area endowed with enough natural resources, technically trained personnel, and installed industrial equipment so as to allow for the production and distribution of physical goods and services to all continental citizens in an amount exceeding the individuals' physical ability to consume.[2] In such an arrangement, concern would be given to sustainability within the resource base, instead of monetary profitability, so as to ensure continued operation of all social-industrial functions into the indefinite future.[2] Technical and leadership skills would be selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic election by those without such knowledge or skill deemed necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
The term technocracy was originally used to designate the application of the scientific method to solving social problems, in counter distinction to the traditional economic, political or philosophic approaches. According to the proponents of this concept, the role of money and economic values, political opinions, and moralistic control mechanisms would be eliminated altogether if and when this form of social control should ever be implemented in a continental area endowed with enough natural resources, technically trained personnel, and installed industrial equipment so as to allow for the production and distribution of physical goods and services to all continental citizens in an amount exceeding the individuals' physical ability to consume.[2] In such an arrangement, concern would be given to sustainability within the resource base, instead of monetary profitability, so as to ensure continued operation of all social-industrial functions into the indefinite future.[2] Technical and leadership skills would be selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic election by those without such knowledge or skill deemed necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:39 am
tech·noc·ra·cy
noun \tek-ˈnä-krə-sē\
plural tech·noc·ra·cies
Definition of TECHNOCRACY
: government by technicians; specifically : management of society by technical experts
See technocracy defined for English-language learners »
First Known Use of TECHNOCRACY
1919
noun \tek-ˈnä-krə-sē\
plural tech·noc·ra·cies
Definition of TECHNOCRACY
: government by technicians; specifically : management of society by technical experts
See technocracy defined for English-language learners »
First Known Use of TECHNOCRACY
1919
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:43 am
The Technocracy Boom
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: July 19, 2010
When historians look back on the period between 2001 and 2011, they will be amazed that a nation that professed to hate bureaucracy produced so much of it....
...When historians look back on this period, they will see it as another progressive era. It is not a liberal era — when government intervenes to seize wealth and power and distribute it to the have-nots. It’s not a conservative era, when the governing class concedes that the world is too complicated to be managed from the center. It’s a progressive era, based on the faith in government experts and their ability to use social science analysis to manage complex systems.
This progressive era is being promulgated without much popular support. It’s being led by a large class of educated professionals, who have been trained to do technocratic analysis, who believe that more analysis and rule-writing is the solution to social breakdowns, and who have constructed ever-expanding networks of offices, schools and contracts....
...If the reforms fail — if they kick off devastating unintended consequences or saddle the country with a maze of sclerotic regulations — then the popular backlash will be ferocious. Large sectors of the population will feel as if they were subjected to a doomed experiment they did not consent to. They will feel as if their country has been hijacked by a self-serving professional class mostly interested in providing for themselves.
If that backlash gains strength, well, what’s the 21st-century version of the guillotine?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/opinion/20brooks.html?_r=1
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: July 19, 2010
When historians look back on the period between 2001 and 2011, they will be amazed that a nation that professed to hate bureaucracy produced so much of it....
...When historians look back on this period, they will see it as another progressive era. It is not a liberal era — when government intervenes to seize wealth and power and distribute it to the have-nots. It’s not a conservative era, when the governing class concedes that the world is too complicated to be managed from the center. It’s a progressive era, based on the faith in government experts and their ability to use social science analysis to manage complex systems.
This progressive era is being promulgated without much popular support. It’s being led by a large class of educated professionals, who have been trained to do technocratic analysis, who believe that more analysis and rule-writing is the solution to social breakdowns, and who have constructed ever-expanding networks of offices, schools and contracts....
...If the reforms fail — if they kick off devastating unintended consequences or saddle the country with a maze of sclerotic regulations — then the popular backlash will be ferocious. Large sectors of the population will feel as if they were subjected to a doomed experiment they did not consent to. They will feel as if their country has been hijacked by a self-serving professional class mostly interested in providing for themselves.
If that backlash gains strength, well, what’s the 21st-century version of the guillotine?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/opinion/20brooks.html?_r=1
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:48 am
The Meaning of Technocracy
The Organization and Membership of Technocracy Inc. define 'Technocracy' as any social system which is organized and integrated on an Area basis to apply the knowledge of science and the methods of technology to the physical operations of the Area, and which has the objective of achieving the highest sustained standard of living for all of its inhabitants that its physical factors permit, and whose ultimate objectives are the production and distribution of abundance.
http://technocracyvan.ca/
The Organization and Membership of Technocracy Inc. define 'Technocracy' as any social system which is organized and integrated on an Area basis to apply the knowledge of science and the methods of technology to the physical operations of the Area, and which has the objective of achieving the highest sustained standard of living for all of its inhabitants that its physical factors permit, and whose ultimate objectives are the production and distribution of abundance.
http://technocracyvan.ca/
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:53 am
What lies at the center of the cult of Neoconservatism?
The Neoconservative cult has always paraded around under a patriotic, pro-American, anticommunist facade. What lies behind this veneer? Frank Fischer answers this question in his book Technocracy and the Politics of Expertise: "...neoconservativism is at base an elitist ideology aimed at promoting a new group of conservative technocrats." (172)
What is a "technocrat?" A technocratic society, or Technocracy, can be defined as follows:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Technocrats.htm
The Neoconservative cult has always paraded around under a patriotic, pro-American, anticommunist facade. What lies behind this veneer? Frank Fischer answers this question in his book Technocracy and the Politics of Expertise: "...neoconservativism is at base an elitist ideology aimed at promoting a new group of conservative technocrats." (172)
What is a "technocrat?" A technocratic society, or Technocracy, can be defined as follows:
Professor Carroll Quigley also wrote about a dictatorship of "experts," suggesting that a cognitive elite "will replace the democratic voter in control of the political system" (Quigley 866). Of just such a democracy of "experts," Freemason and Fabian socialist H.G. Wells stated:
“Technocracy, in classical political terms, refers to a system of governance in which technically trained experts rule by virtue of their specialized knowledge and position in dominant political and economic institutions.” (Fischer 17)
Literary critic and author W. Warren Wagar comments on this statement:
“The world's political organization will be democratic, that is to say, the government and direction of affairs will be in immediate touch with and responsive to the general thought of the educated whole population.” (The Open Conspiracy: H.G. Wells on World Revolution, 26)
Wells would elaborate on the concept of Technocracy in his novel entitled The Shape of Things to Come. Disguised as "science fiction," Wells' roman a' clef propagandized the masses on behalf of world government. In its pages, one finds an elucidating portrait of the technocratic tradition that spawned neoconservativism.
“Read carefully. He did not say the world government would be elected by the people, or that it would even be responsive to the people just to those who were ‘educated.’” (Wells, The Open Conspiracy: H.G. Wells on World Revolution, 26)
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Technocrats.htm
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:58 am
Technocracy
Technocracy, NBIC, Brave New World, Scientific Dictatorship
Acknowledgements
Post-industrial, Brave New World, Planners, Technocracy: Video–”Birthright” by Lynn Wegenka–Planned Society – “future where humans have become drones in a decaying post-industrial hive”
Eugenics, Technocracy, Secret Societies, Esoteric, Religion:Video: “Manly P. Hall – Success is the Accomplishment of The Necessary” [Time: 1:13:30] (video.google.com). – People agree with some of it, some truth, it’s all presented in nice spiritual language, but we tend to swallow the whole thing. Interpretation of what Hall is saying by Alan Watt
Technocracy, Scientific Dictatorship, Dependency, Propaganda, Behaviour: Bertrand Russell’s Insight into The Public Psyche – Quotes like this: ““Education has two very different purposes; on the one hand it aims at developing the individual and giving him knowledge which will be useful to him; on the other hand it aims at producing citizens who will be convenient for the State”
Internet, Technocracy, Big Brother: Humans Not Ready for Technology Changing Society–So Get Ready for it Anyway – “Schmidt [Google] noted that using artificial intelligence, computers can take 14 pictures of anyone on the Internet and stand a good chance of identifying that person. Similarly, the data collected by location-based services can be used not only to show where someone is at, but to also predict with a lot of accuracy where they might be headed next.”
Planners, Globalist Private Think-Tanks Make Policy for Governments (corporate feudalism): International Council for Science–Private Organization–Provides Forum for Policymakers and Scientists to Make Policy – About us: “The International Council for Science (ICSU) is a non-governmental organisation with a global membership of national scientific bodies (121 Members, representing 141 countries) and International Scientific Unions (30 Members).”
Planners, Globalist Private Think-Tanks Make Policy for Governments (corporate feudalism): International Council for Science–Private Organization–Provides Forum for Policymakers and Scientists to Make Policy – About us: “The International Council for Science (ICSU) is a non-governmental organisation with a global membership of national scientific bodies (121 Members, representing 141 countries) and International Scientific Unions (30 Members).”
“From Spitfires to sensors” [IBM] by Darren Waters (news.bbc.co.uk) – May 6, 2009. – “internet of things” – “…IBM’s ambition as a company to build a “smarter planet”‘ …”real-time monitoring of personal energy consumption…”
Mindless Drones for the Future: People Who Think “Too Much” Have a Problem–Scientist Say
Technocracy, Transhumanism, Eugenics, Video: “The Age of Transitions” (informationliberation.com). – “The cutting edge group known as transhumanists see a beautiful future brought about by artificial intelligence, life extension, and cybernetics. What one must realize before getting carried away with such utopian dreams is that transhumanism was born out of the elitist pseudo-science eugenics. This documentary provides vital information on the history of eugenics and its new cutting edge transformation. ”
Transhumanism, Culture, Predictive Programming: “Life is one big computer game” – the philosophy is just to get people to accept virtual reality prison. Everyone’s already living in fantasy.
Rule by Science, Experts: “A Wobbly Three-Legged Stool: Science, Politics, and the Public” – Ignorance of public about energy, fuels, etc. – “…This gap cannot be bridged by loading the public with facts, or trying to make the public more science literate. How should scientists deal with this awkward reality? How can science help create a more rational, pragmatic, and far-sighted society capable of addressing the challenges we face?”
Technocracy, Media/Propaganda, Power/Corruption, False god of Science: “Scientists faking results and omitting unwanted findings in research” by Richard Alleyne (telegraph.co.uk) – June 4, 2009. – “The results paint a picture of a profession in which dishonesty and misrepresentation are widespread”
“Mad scientists plan to make us all “One” “
Scientific Rationalism vs. Individual Worth and Dignity: Atheist Psychology in a Scientifically Rational World
“Charles Galton Darwin” Wikipedia (wikipedia.org).
US Airforce-Each Recruit gets Digital Copy-of Himself
Pervasive Technology–Tax-Funded Naturally
More on Pervasive Technology Programmes
Elites: America’s Ruling Class
Building technocratic policy “solutions” out of “too many people” belief system:Hawking: Man Must go to Space
Wiseup on Lord Birkenhead
Singularity Summit
No Place for Human Values in “Posthuman” Future–Singularity Summit
Technocracy: US report foretells of brave new world Nathan Cochrane July 23 2002
New world Order of Technology
Aldous Huxley, The Ultimate Revolution, Berkeley, Part1 (MP3) – Part 2 (MP3) – (RealAudio – Part 1) – (RealAudio – Part 2)
Video: Mike Wallace interviews Aldous Huxley, May 18, 1958. Posted at University of Texas at Austin.
THE MIKE WALLACE INTERVIEW: ALDOUS HUXLEY – May 18, 1958
Technocracy: The English Ideology and Wired Magazine
Technocracy: The Net: The Unabomber, LSD and the Internet
“GLOBAL TRENDS 2025: THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE COUNCIL’S 2025 PROJECT” (dni.gov).
“Global Trends 2025: A Transformed World” [PDF File, 33.5 MB, at archive.org].
“DCDC Global Strategic Trends Programme 2007-2036″ [PDF file, 6 MB] (U.K. Department of Defence Document).
“STABILITY OPERATIONS OCTOBER 2008″ [PDF file] HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY (usacac.army.mil).
Device Implanted in Skin: “Digital Tattoo Interface” – “Digital Tattoo Interface”
Artificial Intelligence: New “Game” Milo the Virtual Human
http://canadianliberty.com/?p=4674
Technocracy, NBIC, Brave New World, Scientific Dictatorship
Acknowledgements
Post-industrial, Brave New World, Planners, Technocracy: Video–”Birthright” by Lynn Wegenka–Planned Society – “future where humans have become drones in a decaying post-industrial hive”
Eugenics, Technocracy, Secret Societies, Esoteric, Religion:Video: “Manly P. Hall – Success is the Accomplishment of The Necessary” [Time: 1:13:30] (video.google.com). – People agree with some of it, some truth, it’s all presented in nice spiritual language, but we tend to swallow the whole thing. Interpretation of what Hall is saying by Alan Watt
Technocracy, Scientific Dictatorship, Dependency, Propaganda, Behaviour: Bertrand Russell’s Insight into The Public Psyche – Quotes like this: ““Education has two very different purposes; on the one hand it aims at developing the individual and giving him knowledge which will be useful to him; on the other hand it aims at producing citizens who will be convenient for the State”
Internet, Technocracy, Big Brother: Humans Not Ready for Technology Changing Society–So Get Ready for it Anyway – “Schmidt [Google] noted that using artificial intelligence, computers can take 14 pictures of anyone on the Internet and stand a good chance of identifying that person. Similarly, the data collected by location-based services can be used not only to show where someone is at, but to also predict with a lot of accuracy where they might be headed next.”
Planners, Globalist Private Think-Tanks Make Policy for Governments (corporate feudalism): International Council for Science–Private Organization–Provides Forum for Policymakers and Scientists to Make Policy – About us: “The International Council for Science (ICSU) is a non-governmental organisation with a global membership of national scientific bodies (121 Members, representing 141 countries) and International Scientific Unions (30 Members).”
Planners, Globalist Private Think-Tanks Make Policy for Governments (corporate feudalism): International Council for Science–Private Organization–Provides Forum for Policymakers and Scientists to Make Policy – About us: “The International Council for Science (ICSU) is a non-governmental organisation with a global membership of national scientific bodies (121 Members, representing 141 countries) and International Scientific Unions (30 Members).”
“From Spitfires to sensors” [IBM] by Darren Waters (news.bbc.co.uk) – May 6, 2009. – “internet of things” – “…IBM’s ambition as a company to build a “smarter planet”‘ …”real-time monitoring of personal energy consumption…”
Mindless Drones for the Future: People Who Think “Too Much” Have a Problem–Scientist Say
Technocracy, Transhumanism, Eugenics, Video: “The Age of Transitions” (informationliberation.com). – “The cutting edge group known as transhumanists see a beautiful future brought about by artificial intelligence, life extension, and cybernetics. What one must realize before getting carried away with such utopian dreams is that transhumanism was born out of the elitist pseudo-science eugenics. This documentary provides vital information on the history of eugenics and its new cutting edge transformation. ”
Transhumanism, Culture, Predictive Programming: “Life is one big computer game” – the philosophy is just to get people to accept virtual reality prison. Everyone’s already living in fantasy.
Rule by Science, Experts: “A Wobbly Three-Legged Stool: Science, Politics, and the Public” – Ignorance of public about energy, fuels, etc. – “…This gap cannot be bridged by loading the public with facts, or trying to make the public more science literate. How should scientists deal with this awkward reality? How can science help create a more rational, pragmatic, and far-sighted society capable of addressing the challenges we face?”
Technocracy, Media/Propaganda, Power/Corruption, False god of Science: “Scientists faking results and omitting unwanted findings in research” by Richard Alleyne (telegraph.co.uk) – June 4, 2009. – “The results paint a picture of a profession in which dishonesty and misrepresentation are widespread”
“Mad scientists plan to make us all “One” “
Scientific Rationalism vs. Individual Worth and Dignity: Atheist Psychology in a Scientifically Rational World
“Charles Galton Darwin” Wikipedia (wikipedia.org).
US Airforce-Each Recruit gets Digital Copy-of Himself
Pervasive Technology–Tax-Funded Naturally
More on Pervasive Technology Programmes
Elites: America’s Ruling Class
Building technocratic policy “solutions” out of “too many people” belief system:Hawking: Man Must go to Space
Wiseup on Lord Birkenhead
Singularity Summit
No Place for Human Values in “Posthuman” Future–Singularity Summit
Technocracy: US report foretells of brave new world Nathan Cochrane July 23 2002
New world Order of Technology
Aldous Huxley, The Ultimate Revolution, Berkeley, Part1 (MP3) – Part 2 (MP3) – (RealAudio – Part 1) – (RealAudio – Part 2)
Video: Mike Wallace interviews Aldous Huxley, May 18, 1958. Posted at University of Texas at Austin.
THE MIKE WALLACE INTERVIEW: ALDOUS HUXLEY – May 18, 1958
Technocracy: The English Ideology and Wired Magazine
Technocracy: The Net: The Unabomber, LSD and the Internet
“GLOBAL TRENDS 2025: THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE COUNCIL’S 2025 PROJECT” (dni.gov).
“Global Trends 2025: A Transformed World” [PDF File, 33.5 MB, at archive.org].
“DCDC Global Strategic Trends Programme 2007-2036″ [PDF file, 6 MB] (U.K. Department of Defence Document).
“STABILITY OPERATIONS OCTOBER 2008″ [PDF file] HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY (usacac.army.mil).
Device Implanted in Skin: “Digital Tattoo Interface” – “Digital Tattoo Interface”
Artificial Intelligence: New “Game” Milo the Virtual Human
http://canadianliberty.com/?p=4674
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:01 pm
Zionism and Technocracy: The Engineering of Jewish Settlement in Palestine, 1870-1918
by Derek J. Penslar
Table of Contents
Title Page
Zionism and Technocracy: The Engineering of Jewish Settlement in Palestine, 1870-1918
Contents
Acknowledgments
Notes on the Text
Glossary of Hebrew Terms
Introduction
I: The French Period
I: Palestinophilia and Pedagogy French Jewish Philanthropies in Palestine, 1870-1908
II: The German Period
II: From Philanthropy to State Building Theodor Herzl and the World Zionist Organization, 1897-1904
III: Experiments with Colonial Models, 1903-1907
IV: Inner Colonization Arthur Ruppin and the Palestine Office, 1907-1909
III: The Eastern European Period
V: Eastern Influences the Apparatchik and the Pioneer, 1909-1911
VI: The Meeting of Minds, 1911-1918
Conclusion
Notes
Bibliography
Index
http://www.questia.com/library/book/zionism-and-technocracy-the-engineering-of-jewish-settlement-in-palestine-1870-1918-by-derek-j-penslar.jsp
Thanks to the
penetration of socialist Zionists into the JNF bureaucracy, by 1918 the JNF and
its affiliated institutions had dedicated themselves to the creation of a Labor‐
oriented Jewish commonwealth—a Yishuv 'oved—at the war's end.
VII. Epilogue
by Derek J. Penslar
Table of Contents
Title Page
Zionism and Technocracy: The Engineering of Jewish Settlement in Palestine, 1870-1918
Contents
Acknowledgments
Notes on the Text
Glossary of Hebrew Terms
Introduction
I: The French Period
I: Palestinophilia and Pedagogy French Jewish Philanthropies in Palestine, 1870-1908
II: The German Period
II: From Philanthropy to State Building Theodor Herzl and the World Zionist Organization, 1897-1904
III: Experiments with Colonial Models, 1903-1907
IV: Inner Colonization Arthur Ruppin and the Palestine Office, 1907-1909
III: The Eastern European Period
V: Eastern Influences the Apparatchik and the Pioneer, 1909-1911
VI: The Meeting of Minds, 1911-1918
Conclusion
Notes
Bibliography
Index
http://www.questia.com/library/book/zionism-and-technocracy-the-engineering-of-jewish-settlement-in-palestine-1870-1918-by-derek-j-penslar.jsp
Thanks to the
penetration of socialist Zionists into the JNF bureaucracy, by 1918 the JNF and
its affiliated institutions had dedicated themselves to the creation of a Labor‐
oriented Jewish commonwealth—a Yishuv 'oved—at the war's end.
VII. Epilogue
About a month before the scheduled end of the Mandate, the Yishuv formed two governing organs: (1) a parliament (Mo'etzet ha-Am - The People’s Council), a 37-member temporary legislative body, representing the full spectrum of the Jewish population of Palestine, including all the Yishuv parties as well as the Communists, the Revisionists and the ultra-orthodox Agudat Yisrael; and (2) a 13-member cabinet (Minhelet ha-Am - The People's Administration). This executive body convened on May 12, 1948, to decide whether to declare independence. Ten members attended the crucial meeting (with two members stuck in besieged Jerusalem and one on a mission in the United States) with six voting in favor of declaring independence when the Mandate ended and four against. Two days later, on Friday May 14, 1948, the independent State of Israel was declared. All the members of Mo'etzet ha-Am, converted into the Provisional State Council (Mo'etzet ha-Medina ha-Zmanit), signed the scroll of the Declaration of Independence. Minhelet ha-Am became the Provisional Government (ha-Memshala ha-Zmanit). About two weeks later, the IDF (Israel Defense Forces; Tzahal: Tzva Hagana l'Yisrael) was officially formed out of the Hagana, incorporating the Etzel and Lehi as well. The official and practical transformation of the Yishuv into a sovereign independent state was completed.
jewish virtual library, Yishuv
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Re: Technocracy
by PneumaPsucheSoma Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:55 am
And just when I was going to bring up the Singularity for discussion. :-)
Just another thing people look at me cross-eyeded about when I mention it. I love the Wilderness. :-D
Just another thing people look at me cross-eyeded about when I mention it. I love the Wilderness. :-D
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:06 pm
LOL!PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:And just when I was going to bring up the Singularity for discussion. :-)
Just another thing people look at me cross-eyeded about when I mention it. I love the Wilderness. :-D
amazing how peeps don't know hardly nuthin'.
but the bad guys were smart. they gave it in Sci-Fi first.
and then of course there's their OTHER brilliant device: "CONSPIRACY THEORIST"
hahhahaaaha.
bring it up anyways brudda.
we're staring down the barrel of it NOW.
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Re: Technocracy
by strangelove Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:22 pm
Is a singularity when you buy summink for less than a dollar?
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:26 pm
Strangelove wrote:Is a singularity when you buy summink for less than a dollar?
LOL!
i thought it was when your spouse took off with the mailman-person
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Re: Technocracy
by strangelove Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:28 pm
zone wrote:LOL!
i thought it was when your spouse took off with the mailman-person
No thats the big bang.
Night babe.
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:36 pm
Strangelove wrote:
No thats the big bang.
Night babe.
teeheeee...nite Doc.
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Re: Technocracy
by PneumaPsucheSoma Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:44 pm
zone wrote:
LOL!
i thought it was when your spouse took off with the mailman-person
None of the above. It's any planned social event involving a large Charismatic church's "island of misfit toys" singles' group. :-P
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Re: Technocracy
by zone Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:52 pm
PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
None of the above. It's any planned social event involving a large Charismatic church's "island of misfit toys" singles' group. :-P
ROTFLMHO!!!!!!!
you're hilarious PPS
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