Doc.......

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Doc.......

Post by zone on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:17 pm

re the other discussion: how can anyone deny an actual physical destruction of an actual physical jerusalem?. nobody ever denies Jesus is the fulfillment of everything.

ESV

Daniel 9
Daniel’s Prayer for His People

1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us,a by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. 13As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. 15And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

16“O Lord, according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem, your holy hill, because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a byword among all who are around us. 17Now therefore, O our God, listen to the prayer of your servant and to his pleas for mercy, and for your own sake, O Lord,b make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18O my God, incline your ear and hear. Open your eyes and see our desolations, and the city that is called by your name. For we do not present our pleas before you because of our righteousness, but because of your great mercy. 19O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention and act. Delay not, for your own sake, O my God, because your city and your people are called by your name.”

Gabriel Brings an Answer

20While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, 21while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

KJV IS MOST FAITHFUL TO THE MEANING IN THE LAST PASSAGES 24-27 (some other translations incl ESV make the Most Holy - Jesus, the most holy place)

KJV:

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

WHAT ARE THE THINGS LISTED IN 24-27 THAT WERE PROMISED AND DECREED for Daniel's people and Jerusalem? << 'jews'!


DECREED AND ACCOMPLISHED within the 70 years (the desolation DECREED within the 70 years, carried out later and even decreed right here in Daniel, and described as coming later):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city: 7 things


to finish the transgression
and to make an end of sins
and to make reconciliation for iniquity
and to bring in everlasting righteousness
and to seal up the vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most Holy
and # 7 (completion): desolations are determined

so right in the very passage itself is the destruction of physical Jerusalem.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

~

the other discussion has Jesus CUT OFF at the end of the 69th week, exactly as dispensationalists do. they forget that there were no verse or chapter breaks in the original text! one run-on narrative so they just can not get past the fact that 2 princes are mentioned in the same passage.

Titus is probably called a PRINCE because at that time he was only a general of the Roman army.....BUT! he was the SON of a "king"/Caesar", making him a PRINCE at the time of 70AD, and technically a king:


Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death, thus becoming the first Roman Emperor to come to the throne after his own father.

LATER HE WAS CROWNED CAESAR AND BECAME ONE OF THE 10 KINGS!


because he was alive and involved in the prophecies of the COMPLETE ending of the ruling over the FAITHFUL remnant who would receive Jesus as King Who is King forever, he is the LAST of the 10 caesars/kings over them/involved in their captivities.

we know the Pharisees had already said they had NO KING but Caesar. what's that got to do with the faithful remnant?

the very same kings Daniel saw in his vision of the metal man that were the feet crushed by the Stone cut without hands that smashed them:


Daniel 2:44
New International Version (©1984)
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

New Living Translation(©2007)
"During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed or conquered. It will crush all these kingdoms into nothingness, and it will stand forever.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

we can literally count 10 caesars from Augustus to Titus who are the kings IN THOSE DAYS when God smashed their rule over the faithful remnant and SET UP the Spiritual Kingdom of Jesus! titus was the last one concerning this:

"and to seal up the vision and prophecy"


TITUS WAS MADE A KING/CAESAR in 79AD.

Roman denarius depicting Titus, c. 79. The reverse commemorates his triumph in the Judaean wars, representing a Jewish captive kneeling in front of a trophy of arms.




DON'T LOOK AT COINS OR ARCHITECTURE OR ART OR ANY HISTORICAL WRITINGS!
70 AD DIDN'T HAPPEN!lol!

i saw these things with my own eyes in Europe - was i imagining them? are they 'spiritual' holograms?



The Arch of Titus, located on the Via Sacra, just to the south-east of the Forum Romanum in Rome.


Titus' triumph after the First Jewish-Roman War was celebrated with the Arch of Titus in Rome, which shows the treasures taken from the Temple in Jerusalem, including the Menorah and the trumpets of Jericho


~

anyways...back to Daniel 9 and JESUS:

but He was CUT OFF (and He Finished His work) in the middle of the 70th week, not at the end of the 69th:

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

~

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Jeremiah 31:31

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Mark 14:24
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

Luke 22:20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

so He confirms the covenant and is cut off, causing the sacrifices to CEASE.
HE'S THE SACRIFICE.

Jesus is confirming the covenant with MANY (the remnant)...how can that be if they all destroyed themselves and were replaced by the gentiles?

and doesn't Luke 22:20 where Jesus is confirming the covenant follow this DECREE of the destruction of jerusalem by enemies?

Luke 19
41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

~

is the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the romans in 70AD (which does not in any way shape or form detract from but rather underscores that Jesus is the TRUE FULFILLMENT) an allegory only?

does that mean the first destruction and carrying away into Babylon was ALSO an allegory?

Jeremiah 6:6
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Cut down the trees and build siege ramps against Jerusalem. This city must be punished; it is filled with oppression.

~

if the other idea, which just erases the physical desolation of jerusalem really means to spiritualize it all and make it about the jews themselves destroying themselves at Calvary AND WORSE, THAT THE DEATH OF JESUS WAS A JUDGMENT UPON THEM ALL RATHER THEN THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROMISE TO MANY i do not know what to say.

look at what was accomplished for faithful israel!

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city: 7 things!

to finish the transgression
and to make an end of sins
and to make reconciliation for iniquity
and to bring in everlasting righteousness
and to seal up the vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most Holy


THE GOOD NEWS! for all of us jew (first) and gentile!

Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

did He not do it?
did the remnant of israel and judah ('all' israel - romans 11) become Christians?
we know gentiles are grafted in, and that we are ALL 'all israel'.
but was God faithful to accomplish all He had promised from the beginning for the actual jews?
how could they have received the PROMISE if they destroyed themselves?

~

the real issue, do we ERASE what was actually decreed upon unfaithful israel/jerusalem?

and # 7 (completion): desolations are determined

here's that DECREE/DETERMINED

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Luke 13:35
Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Luke 19
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41
And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 21
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

~

Matthew Henry:

Having given an idea of the times for about thirty-eight years next to come, Christ shows what all those things would end in, namely, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the utter dispersion of the Jewish nation; which would be a type and figure of Christ's second coming.

~

what happened thirty-eight years later?

Matthew 23:36
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.



1074. genea

genea: race, family, generation

Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation
Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
race, family, generation
NASB Word Usage
generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

age, generation

From (a presumed derivative of) genos; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons) -- age, generation, nation, time.
see GREEK genos

just take a look down the right column to see it used in the precise sense meant above: i.e. - a specific generation...."this generation"

http://concordances.org/greek/1074.htm

Matthew 1:17 N-NFP
BIB: ἕως Δαυὶδ γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες καὶ
NAS: are fourteen generations; from David
KJV: [are] fourteen generations; and
INT: to David [were] generations fourteen and

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Re: Doc.......

Post by zone on Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:25 pm

but this doesn't matter if titus can not be named.
oh well.

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Re: Doc.......

Post by zone on Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:58 pm

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

even if 'desolations' are what the people do/commit (whether they be jews or romans), the destruction is still decreed.

in fact, if the desolations are what jews commit....that means they are committing IDOLATRY. yes, rejecting Jesus the worst.

but isn't daniel in Babylon praying for forgiveness of their 'desolations' already? well before Jesus came?

in fact, if the other camp wants to make desolations strictly about the jews committing them, then exactly what WAS being committed even AFTER Jesus was crucified?

KJV:

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that determined is 70AD




and...WHAT WAR?

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Re: Doc.......

Post by zone on Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:14 am

interesting Doc....

once upon a time a christian asked a question about whether Jesus actually physically healed people.

and the question just disappeared. poof.

the numerical sequence was uninterupted, as if the christian had never asked the question at all.

the end.

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Re: Doc.......

Post by zone on Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:22 am

sigh....
followed up by more of the same 'gold member manners'
hmmm......interesting to see what happens now.
love ya doc.

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Re: Doc.......

Post by zone on Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:28 pm

ok.....check...check...1. 2

testing.....

Daniel 9 precision post working file

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Re: Doc.......

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