Lazarus and the rich man

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Lazarus and the rich man

Post by zone on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:41 pm

an interesting study on LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
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So.....Eternal Damnation?

Post by Strangelove on Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:26 am

Well here is an excellent post on this subject. Credit goes to Brother Timothew on another forum. I'm sure he doesn't mind me pasting it in here. It's a great peice of scholarship:

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.


Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Timotheos on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 pm

Wow, what an intellegent fellow that Timothew must be.

Here I'm Timotheos, I hope I remember how to spell it.
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by zone on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:53 pm

Timotheos wrote:Wow, what an intellegent fellow that Timothew must be.

Here I'm Timotheos, I hope I remember how to spell it.

LOL! flower
hi Timo!
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Timotheos on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:12 pm

Hi Zone,

Did you come over from warzone too?

Choppers!
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by zone on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:25 pm

Timotheos wrote:Hi Zone,

Did you come over from warzone too?

Choppers!

ROTFLMHO!!!
i wanna gun like your kitty got 8)

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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Son of Israel on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:12 pm

Timotheos wrote:Wow, what an intellegent fellow that Timothew must be.

Here I'm Timotheos, I hope I remember how to spell it.

potatoe potato, tomatoe tomato, Hi Timotheos Smile Good to see you! You've been "quoted", and a nice quote indeed! All truth for sure.
Have you ever noticed that in relation to torment, it is the "smoke" that arises forever. Not the "torment"...

(Rev 14:11)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

no rest is the state of wicked people in their day to day lives motivated by their love of money, (mark of beast).
[size=12]
(Isa 57:20)
But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
(Isa 57:21)
There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

(1Ti 6:9)
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
(1Ti 6:10)
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

This is the "torment" and "fire" they go through...

(Jas 5:1)
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
(Jas 5:2)
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
(Jas 5:3)
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
[/size]
After they weep and howl in torment, then they die after their last days are up. As above, they die, are destroyed.

Why is this so tough for people to connect the dots? I just don't get it

Blessings my wise brothers Smile
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Son of Israel on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:15 pm

Ooops, it looks like your site doesn't like my E-sword copy and pastes Sad
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Major on Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:20 pm

I am of the beloef that the wicked will suffer in the Lake of Fire eternally.

Luke 16 tells us several keys.

verse 23......
"And in hell he lift up his eyes being in TOTMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bossom".

Notice that TORMENTS is "plural", on-going and it affects him personally.

Verse 24......
"For I am TORMENTED in this flame".

Again we see that this torment is on-going everlasting to the individual.

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet (human beings) are and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER".

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Son of Israel on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:50 am

I respect your verses, Hi bro Smile

To me it is a moot point for salvation, others I know hold to your idea, dear dear peeps in the Lord every last one.

But if we are to fairly expound, this verse mod at the end is something that, well... please forgive me, but to add paranthesis allows me to send one back; this one near the end...

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet (human beings) are and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER".

I shall do the same, in this incredible angelic language who knows what we can come up with?


Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet (human beings) are and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER (in a manner of speaking)".


The position of what Timotheos expounded is flawless.

Your contention, correct me if I'm wrong, is that human beings are tormented forever?
A true exegetic wouldn't let this verse or similar "nether-worldly" ideas cause undue influence in what it actually means eh. Let truth reign?
A few occasions of the various spiritual descriptions of ultimate damnation out of scripture, and men are attracted to adopt a fear based interpretation. The fire burns up the chaff. That is what it is all about. Why would I give up sound scholarly understanding and exposition in exchange for a Dante’s inferno idea?
I teach against that belief system as it ushers in a whole nether world of fallen angel type stuff and doctrines of devils and a god that tortures people forever hoo boy, and my grandkids sure don't need to hear that kind of stuff if it isn't true, in my own opinion.
Blessings
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:39 am

Son of Israel wrote:Ooops, it looks like your site doesn't like my E-sword copy and pastes Sad

Paste into an empty text document then copy it out of there and into your post. Soz.

Free forum, what can I say?

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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:42 am

Ouch...sorry Adstar I deleted your post by accident. Crying or Very sad

I went to reply but hit the edit button instead....wont happen again, Arrow

Please post it again, I wanted to reply.

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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Son of Israel on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:57 am

Strangelove wrote:
Son of Israel wrote:Ooops, it looks like your site doesn't like my E-sword copy and pastes Sad

Paste into an empty text document then copy it out of there and into your post. Soz.

Free forum, what can I say?

10-4
Free forum cool Smile
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Major on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:32 pm

Son of Israel wrote:I respect your verses, Hi bro Smile

To me it is a moot point for salvation, others I know hold to your idea, dear dear peeps in the Lord every last one.

But if we are to fairly expound, this verse mod at the end is something that, well... please forgive me, but to add paranthesis allows me to send one back; this one near the end...

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet (human beings) are and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER".

I shall do the same, in this incredible angelic language who knows what we can come up with?


Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet (human beings) are and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER (in a manner of speaking)".


The position of what Timotheos expounded is flawless.

Your contention, correct me if I'm wrong, is that human beings are tormented forever?
A true exegetic wouldn't let this verse or similar "nether-worldly" ideas cause undue influence in what it actually means eh. Let truth reign?
A few occasions of the various spiritual descriptions of ultimate damnation out of scripture, and men are attracted to adopt a fear based interpretation. The fire burns up the chaff. That is what it is all about. Why would I give up sound scholarly understanding and exposition in exchange for a Dante’s inferno idea?
I teach against that belief system as it ushers in a whole nether world of fallen angel type stuff and doctrines of devils and a god that tortures people forever hoo boy, and my grandkids sure don't need to hear that kind of stuff if it isn't true, in my own opinion.
Blessings

Agreed that in the end, for you and I and all believers this is not a "basic" of the faith.

I do however still believe that the suffering in hell will go on for all enernity to each of the wicked who find themselves in hell. Again consider the phraseology in Luke 16...."Tormented in this flame"/
"Cool my tongue". All of the phrases are in the Aoretic Present tense and indicates an "ON_GOIN" situation.

Then this is just my opinion on this, but we all believe that heaven will be an eternal home of erlasting peace for the believers so then I 'm thinking that the opposite must be just as true for all non-believers.

Nice to hear from you!
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Strangelove on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:47 pm

Major wrote:
Agreed that in the end, for you and I and all believers this is not a "basic" of the faith.

I do however still believe that the suffering in hell will go on for all enernity to each of the wicked who find themselves in hell. Again consider the phraseology in Luke 16...."Tormented in this flame"/
"Cool my tongue". All of the phrases are in the Aoretic Present tense and indicates an "ON_GOIN" situation.

Hmmm///? Could just mean they will be tormented while they are being destroyed in the flames. It's gonna pinch for a bit. sunny

Major wrote:
Then this is just my opinion on this, but we all believe that heaven will be an eternal home of erlasting peace for the believers so then I 'm thinking that the opposite must be just as true for all non-believers.

Nice to hear from you!

I'm just not sure I can envision the Almighty God.....torturing people forever.

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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Son of Israel on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:22 pm

Strangelove wrote:Hmmm///? Could just mean they will be tormented while they are being destroyed in the flames. It's gonna pinch for a bit. sunny



I'm just not sure I can envision the Almighty God.....torturing people forever.

It's gonna pinch lol.
Yeah I'd never serve a God who tortured people. My God doesn't.

Interesting that the parable of Lazarus is being looked at as something other than a parable. Like a visual guide to the afterlife lol. There appears to be a lot of physical thing in that afterlife idea... I thought it was an immortal soul in torment from what I heard, but in that parable I see eyes, fingers, tongue, bosom... and a "great gulf"?? Where is there such a place as a great gulf where those in hell in torment can look across and see people pasted to the front of abraham's chest?? And wouldn't those "eyes" there be kind of sooted over preventing seeing anything, let alone across a great gulf... and etc etc. See the problem in dropping Holy Spirit guided revelation for literal non-thought-out hell proof?

I daresay, Jesus isn't all the sudden doing something different with this parable than any other parable he told. He certainly isn't putting on His theological hat and teaching us the state of men in death. That would be missing the point of the parable altogether.

They aren't real flames brethen. If one has a Bible study program, one can bring up every scripture dealing with fire. A great thing happens, we learn what it means! lol. Its true.

So I put it out there in a nutshell. If one searches this out, they will find that the "Fire" that the prophets foretold that both burns up the chaff and also purifies the righteous, IS ONE FIRE. The fire of the Holy Spirit of Jesus. "The Lord our God IS a consuming fire." Words that come out of His mouth and out of our mouths as we preach burn up the wicked as they are in torment for their love of the world, specifically, "the love of money" the root of all evil. (It was a parable about a righ man wasn't it)
Some of us survive this fire when it comes and we come out purified as gold through the fire. Others are burnt up in their evil consciences being seared as tho it were a hot iron.
Then they die in annihilation as those dozens of scriptures timotheos put together perfectly reveal.

Jesus uses fire to build our comprehension to a level of understanding to where we realize the full meaning of what He wants us to know. He hides the real meaning from the carnal minded simply by letting them only see a flame composed of oxygen, fuel and heat. That is being "blind" He calls it. Carnal minded. The fire of the Lord has nothing to do with physical heat, oxygen or fuel.
Men burn in their minds when they willingly sin, fearful of that day they know is to come, in which they die the death into the grave. The illusion of eternal torment is simply a cherry on top for the deluded wicked to fear a Dante's Inferno style of fiery ending, good for them. May they repent and be spared any further burning.

Blessings
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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Adstar on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:46 am

Strangelove wrote:

Hmmm///? Could just mean they will be tormented while they are being destroyed in the flames. It's gonna pinch for a bit. sunny



I'm just not sure I can envision the Almighty God.....torturing people forever.




But can you envision the Almighty God granting you eternal
life in the paradise of the New Jerusalem forever and ever ?

Apart from that i understand how people can click on the wrong button and wipe
something out. Most of my posts are done on the spot. i do not copy and paste a
lot except for verses. So i probably cannot reproduce my lost post perfectly. I
will try to put down in point form what i can remember.

1) I believe that existence in the lake of fire will be forever as the Book of
Revelation chapter 20 states.

2) From the book of Revelations i see that after the battle of Armageddon the
false prophet and the beast will be cast into the lake of fire but satan will
be chained and cast into the bottomless pit.

3) From the book of Revelations i read that 1000 years later when satan is
defeated at the final satanic rebellion He only then cast into the lake of
fire. And it says that when He is cast into the lake of fire the false prophet
and the beast are there. So they have been in the lake of fire for 1000 years
prior to satan being cast into it. If they where consumed and destroyed by the
fire then they would no longer be referred as being still there.

Also i will add this scripture:

Revelation 14
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they
have no rest day or night
, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.”

It is not just the smoke that rises forever. or the smoke of their carcases,
but is the smoke of their torment that ascends forever and
they who are in the lake of fire have no rest day or night.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Re: Lazarus and the rich man

Post by Strangelove on Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:38 am

Adstar wrote:But can you envision the Almighty God granting you eternal
life in the paradise of the New Jerusalem forever and ever ?

Hell yeah!

(pun intended) flower

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