The "Coming" of Jesus Christ

It's a popular viewpoint for sure. I think the other recent poster is from Arizona. Near you?

Dear sir, I reread this thread with your and Zone's exchange with Son of Israel.  I agreed with her and your conclusions.  Are you still of the same mind?

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, I reread this thread with your and Zone's exchange with Son of Israel.  I agreed with her and your conclusions.  Are you still of the same mind?

Pretty much yeah.

I'm def. not a full preterist.

I am however very much leaning towards orthodox preterism. I didn't really know much about 70AD until about 4 months ago. Was not really a student of history like I should have, so now I can see much clearer how that event has fulfilled much of Rev and Oliv.

I watched an exposition by a gentleman by the name of Steve Gregg on Youtube regarding Revelation and it was very helpful. He also likes writing about the Kingdom in a similar vein to yourself. His book is called Empire of the Risen Son: a Treatise on the Kingdom of God.

I think he would also self identify as amillenial orthodox preterist.

Jay E. Adams and G.I. Williamson are also authors who's books I enjoyed although I didn't agree with some of their exposition.

There are many more ortho. pret. teachers out there but they all seem to be dominion/postmillers. Bruce Gore is one who has a particularly good Youtube series called The Apocalypse in Space and Time.

This is the first video in Gregg's series. It's a long series

Thank you sir.  I will watch with great interest.

Apart from what I perceive as a serious error handling the Greek on page 136, this short book by G.I Williamson is excellent.

A Study of Biblical Eschatology

I don't think Satan being loosed for a little while near the end gives away any real timeline of Christ's second coming. A little while could be 2 weeks, 2 months, 4 years, 30 years etc. so feel his attmept to manipulate Rev 20 unneccesary and ultimately erroneous. I don't think he bothered to check the source.

thank you sir

Dear sir, I looked at 3 of Mr Gregg's videos and read 75 pages of the book biblical eschatology.  thank you for the material tip.  i hope to have chapter 9 of my current work complete and ready to post in a couple days. thank you gain for the opportunity.

Zephaniah 1: 14– 18 The great day of the Lord is near, near and hastening fast... 15 A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness... 18 on the day of the wrath of the Lord. In the fire of his jealousy, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full and sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Joel 2: 1– 11 Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near, 2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness!... 10 The earth quakes before them; the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 11… For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome; who can endure it?

Isaiah 13: 6– 11 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come… 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity.

The day of the Lord in Zephaniah described God’s local judgment of ancient Judah, as well as Israel’s enemies of that time period. The apparently universal language of “utterly sweeping away everything from the face of the earth,” is spiritualized hyperbole, an exaggerated expression of the spiritual reality. We know for a fact that “all the earth” was not “consumed” and that “all the inhabitants of the earth” were not “ended” as the text says, because of course, we inhabitants are still here and the earth is not consumed. If one takes this description of worldwide destruction as “literal” one would have a biblical contradiction on your hands. But the Bible does not contradict itself. The language is obviously symbolic. Covenant judgment upon Judah was the spiritual equivalent of the cosmos being undone, returning the earth to its state of pre-creation chaos. Joel’s words in Joel 2 were made against the city of Jerusalem besieged by Mesopotamian forces before being taken into exile. The book is not easily placed historically, but commentator Douglas Stuart concluded, “The words of the book would likely have been spoken on one of these occasions: the Assyrian invasion of 701 b.c., the Babylonian invasion of 598, or the Babylonian invasion of 588.”[ 8] The invasion and exile of Israel in the 7th or 8th centuries B.C. was the day of the Lord in Joel, not a future end of the world. The events of the sun and the moon being darkened, and the stars withdrawing their shining occurred during the invasion of the foreign godless nation. What did that look like? We’ll look more closely in the next chapters. The day of the Lord in Isaiah 13 above was explicitly stated as being the localized judgment against Babylon when it fell to the Medes in 539 B.C. (13: 1, 17-19). The Lord’s day of vengeance in Isaiah 34 was against Edom in the 8th century B.C. (34: 5, 6, 9). The Lord’s day of vengeance in Jeremiah 46 was a description of the fall of Egypt to Babylon’s Nebuchadnezzar during the time of Judah’s King Jehoiakim (46: 2). Isaiah 34 and Jeremiah 46 were fulfilled in past history. Now re-read those prophecies as fulfilled and you can see how the universal language is clearly the spiritual reality behind localized judgments on cities and nations. But that’s not all. Amos described Israel’s northern kingdom destruction by the Assyrians around 722 B.C. as the day of the Lord (Amos 5: 18-20), and Obadiah’s day of the Lord for Edom and other nations was sometime after the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon in 586 B.C.[ 9] This survey of the passages that use the phrase “day of the Lord” shows that it is not a reference to a single event of universal judgment in our modern day future, but a term used of multiple events of local judgments already fulfilled in history. When God judged individual cities, peoples, or nations in the Old Testament, it would be their “day of the Lord,” their historical comeuppance, or retribution. So when prophecy teachers quote all these Old Testament passages to draw out what they think will happen in our future, they are quoting Bible verses out of context and applying them to events the original writers did not intend and the text does not justify. When modern teachers say that these prophecies have a double fulfillment— meaning that they also apply to an end of the world final judgment— they are arbitrarily imposing their preconceived desires on the text. You could certainly say that by analogy the final judgment will be another day of the Lord for all peoples in history, but you could not say that these Old Testament passages are prophesying specifically about that day.

Godawa, Brian. End Times Bible Prophecy: It’s Not What They Told You (Chronicles of the Apocalypse) (pp. 42-44). Warrior Poet Publishing. Kindle Edition.

The End Was Near Another aspect of these Old Testament days of the Lord that highlights their historical fulfillment is the explicit timing. Zephaniah repeated the word “near” several times to emphasize the point that the day of the Lord’s judgment would happen soon. “The great day of the Lord is near, near and hastening fast” (1: 14). Zephaniah didn’t say it was far, far in the future, thousands of years away. Actually it was so near that it happened to that original Jewish audience. Joel repeated himself as well when writing, “The day of the Lord is near” (1: 15), “the day of the Lord is coming: it is near” (2: 1), and then a third time in 3: 14. And what do you know? It was near— to those Jews who were punished by God with exile, not some future generation thousands of years later. Isaiah said, “The day of the Lord is near” (13: 6). And, sure enough, it was near because within a few near years the Medes actually did overthrow Babylon like Sodom and Gomorrah, just as Isaiah said they would (13: 17-19). “Near” really meant near to the audience, not far in the future. Obadiah’s day of the Lord was near (v. 15) for the Philistines, Samaria, the Edomites, and all “the Canaanites as far as Zarephath” (v. 18-21) because the Babylonians plundered all of the land of Israel with its inhabitants in the 8th century B.C.— not in the 21st century A.D. Amos described the day of the Lord for Israel in the Assyrian conquest of Israel of 722 B.C. in near terms as well. “The end has come upon my people Israel” (8: 2). The conclusion is inescapable; when the prophets said the day of the Lord was near for these nations, it really was near, usually within their lifetimes.

Godawa, Brian. End Times Bible Prophecy: It’s Not What They Told You (Chronicles of the Apocalypse) (pp. 44-45). Warrior Poet Publishing. Kindle Edition.

List of false prophets before the coming of the Lord...

Acts 5: 36-37 Theudas and Judas of Galilee Acts 8: 9-10 Simon the magician Acts 13: 6 Bar-Jesus the false prophet Acts 20: 29-30 false prophets in Ephesus after Paul left them 2 Timothy 1: 15 Phygelus and Hermogenes false teachers 2 Timothy 3: 1-13 False prophets and teachers 2 Corinthians 11: 12-15 False apostles Galatians 1: 4-6 False brethren Revelation 2: 14-15 The Nicolaitans, false teaching Revelation 2: 20-24 Jezebel, false teaching lead astray 2 Peter 2: 1 False prophets/ false teachers through Dispersion 1 John 2: 18-26 Many antichrists false teaching 1 John 4: 1-3 “Many” false prophets, antichrists in the first century world 2 John 7-9 Deceivers, antichrists

Now it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, [the same Theudas spoken of in Acts 5: 36-37] persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem.[ 22] There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, who laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government, and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty… But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him.[

Flavius Josephus and William Whiston, The Works of Josephus: Complete and Unabridged (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1987). Wars of the Jews, 2.258-263.

Matthew 10:22-23 (KJV)  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Hebrews 10:36-37 (KJV)  For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Matthew 16:27-28 (KJV)  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 26:63-64 (KJV)  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

James 5: 7– 9 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. … 8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

Philippians 4: 4– 5 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;

The imminent coming of Jesus to those in the 1st century.

John 19: 36– 37 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled:…“ They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Revelation 1: 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth [land] will wail on account of him.

Nahum 1: 2– 3 The Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3… His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Psalm 18: 9– 11 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. 10 He rode on a cherub and flew; he came swiftly on the wings of the wind. 11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him, thick clouds dark with water.

Ezekiel 30: 3– 4 For the day is near, the day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds… 4 A sword shall come upon Egypt.

Isaiah 19: 1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt;

Isaiah 30: 30 And the Lord will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the descending blow of his arm to be seen, in furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones.

Joel 2: 1–2 [F]or the day of the Lord is coming; it is near, 2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness!

Gods judgment and clouds / storms

Daniel 7: 13– 14 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Hebrews 10: 12– 13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

The first coming.

Matthew 24: 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather episynago (an expansion of synagogue) his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John 11: 51 Being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”

Deuteronomy 30: 3-4 And the Lord shall heal your sins, and he will show mercy to you, and he will gather (synagogue) you again from all the nations into which the Lord scattered you there. 4 If your dispersion should be from one end of heaven as far as the other end of heaven, from that place the Lord your God will gather (synagogue) you and from that place the Lord your God will take you.

Christ’s judgment-coming effects several dramatic results: it brings God’s wrath upon the Jews for rejecting their Messiah (Mt 21: 33– 44; 23: 37– 38; Ac 2: 36); it concludes the anticipatory old covenant era (Heb 1: 1; 12: 18– 29) which in the first century is “becoming obsolete and growing old” and is “ready to vanish away” (Heb 8: 13; cp. Gal 3: 23– 25); it finally and forever closes down the typological sacrificial system, reorienting the worship of God (Jn 4: 21; Heb 9– 10); it vindicates Christ’s followers against their first enemies (Mt 10: 16– 23; 23: 24– 24: 2; 1Th 2: 14– 17; Rev 6: 9– 11); and it effectively universalizes the Christian faith by freeing it from all Jewish constraints (Mt 28: 18– 20; Mk 2: 21– 22; Ac 15: 10– 11; Eph 2: 12– 22).[

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Interpretation of Revelation, (Dallas, GA: Tolle Lege Press, 2016), 48-49

Mark 12: 9– 10 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.

John 14: 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. John 14: 28 You heard me say to you, “I am going away, and I will come to you.”

Revelation 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Revelation 2: 5 (to the church of Ephesus) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2: 16 (to the church of Pergamum) Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2: 25– 26 (to the church of Thyatira) Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations.

Revelation 3: 3 (to the church of Sardis) Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

Revelation 3: 11– 12 (to the church of Philadelphia) I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

More coming...not literal.

1 Corinthians 15: 20– 26 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Second coming

Jeremiah 18: 7– 10 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Why He came in AD 70

The "presence" of the Lord on the holy city and His apocalyptic effect...

Jeremiah 4:23-28 (KJV) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Psalms 18:9-13 (KJV) He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Acts 24:15 (YLT) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be (μέλλω / mello) a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Imminent resurrection event?

Dan 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sir, are you now a full preterist?

Bro John wrote:Sir, are you now a full preterist?

I am seriously considering the view brother.

I have spent considerable time examining this doctrine, ie. Don Preston vids, Steve Gregg book, Preston's vids refuting Gregg's book, numerous debates with King, Preston, Bell, Sullivan, etc. At the end of the day flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. A recent thought was the love chapter of all places. If we are in the time of "that which is perfect" there is no more faith, hope and knowledge. (I Corinthians 13:8-10, 12, 13) You are a very bright man, and so I need not explain the ramifications of these seemingly innocuous verses on the subject matter at hand. Noel, prick your finger. If you see blood you have not yet inherited the kingdom. Yes, we receive it by faith as Abraham did with God's promise of Canaan but until we are no longer flesh and blood we dwell in it as strangers and pilgrims awaiting..........

Bro John wrote:flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

True. And if you are born of the spirit then you have entered the kingdom. Our mortal bodies are not relevant to the kingdom, only the spirit....right John?

John 3:5-8 (ESV) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Heb 12:22-23 (ESV) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

We are not waiting for inheritance, we are already sons of God.

Rom 8:12-17 (ESV) So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Gal 5:24-25 (ESV) And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Paragraph 1 I do not agree.  Jesus was raised with the very body He went into the tomb with, but with no corruption

Paragraph 2. I do not agree.  Jesus did not inherit all things until His resurrection/ascension.

Now please give me your line of reasoning that knowledge, faith, and hope are gone seeing we still have them presently.

Bro John wrote:Paragraph 1 I do not agree.  Jesus was raised with the very body He went into the tomb with, but with no corruption

I did not mention Jesus in paragraph 1 brother. I was talking about us disciples and our inheritance. There are many miracles, signs and wonders which happned in past times that are not necessarily relevant to us in the Messianic age. I believe bodily resurrection may be one of them. Just because Jesus was raised bodily does that mean we must be? Does Jesus have a body right now or is he spirit? Do we really care about our bodies anyway when we have an eternal saved soul? Why is a body important?

Bro John wrote:Paragraph 2. I do not agree. Jesus did not inherit all things until His resurrection/ascension.

But if we Christians are already raised from death to life and are currently at Mount Zion in heavenly places with our brother Jesus......then we, like Jesus, are sons of God. Are you not a son of God John?

Eph 2:4-6 (ESV) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

2Cor 3:17-18 (ESV) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Bro John wrote:Now please give me your line of reasoning that knowledge, faith, and hope are gone seeing we still have them presently.

Seems to be 3 things mentioned as passing John. (Faith, hope and love are the things that remain):
Prophecies
Tongues
Knowledge

The first two I can def. see as passed. All prophecies in the Hebrew writings were fulfilled in Christ during the 1st century, there is nothing new that was not present in the old I don't think.

Tongues, most probably refers to the gift shown at Pentacost and other miracles of language that are also ceased in this age.

Knowlege? Paul is probably referring to the knowledge of the old world. The old covenent knowledge. Because knowledge is placed in the same category as tongues and prophecies which I know have passed...then this makes sense to me.

Thank you for discussing with me. It's good to have your input, especially as you've been down this road.