Fearless Dave MacPhearson

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Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by northwye on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:06 pm

Fearless Dave MacPhearson
Bernard Pyron

On http://www.scionofzion.com/revisers.htm

Dave MacPherson makes a number of statements about the origins of separation theology, or dispensationalism..

MacPherson says "John Walvoord truthfully viewed as one of the "early" pretribs, has also claimed that Darby first "understood" pretrib in either late 1826 or early 1827, and that Darby based his earliest development primarily on the "distinction" between the
"church" and "Israel" which, he said, would necessitate a separation between both groups that only a pretrib rapture could attain."

John Darby (1800-1882) said that the dispensation of law ended at the cross when the dispensation of grace began. But then when the seven year dispensationalist tribulation period begins, another dispensation of law begins - so proposed Darby. This created a problem for Darby's theory. How could another dispensation of law go on when the Church was still on earth? He thought that in the dispensation of law during the tribulation, God would be dealing with the Jews. Would the church in the
tribulation return to be under the law? The solution was that Darby postulated that before the events of the tribulation began and the one man dispensationalist Anti-Christ appeared, the church would be raptured off the earth. With the church gone, God would then turn to deal with the Jews during the tribulation. This point of Darby's theory may be the origin of the claim that the Book of Revelation is only for the Jews, since only they of God's people will be on earth in the tribulation.

If the church is raptured off the earth, leaving the Jews, what happens to the few Jews who have accepted Christ? Darby and later dispensationalists do not seem to deal with Messianic Jews, or with the vast majority of Jews who have rejected Christ entirely.

Darby proposed a radical separation between the church and the Jews, and apparently then said that
when a Jew comes to believe in Christ he becomes part of the church and is no longer part of Israel.
Of course, the messianic Jews would tend to reject this idea, wanting to be followers of Messiah and still be part of Israel.

MacPherson goes on to say that
"Not until 1839 ("Notes on the Revelation") did Darby have clear pretrib teaching! Basing it on Rev. 12:5's "man child" who was "caught up," he wrote: "If we apply it to the saints, who overcome here...then we find that...they are caught up out of his [the dragon's] way....; and the trial and persecution fall on those who are left here----upon the woman."

Note: Manuel or Emmanuel Lacunza, 1731-1801, was a Jesuit priest who wrote The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty (1790). Supposedly Lacunza wrote that before Christ appeared the second time there would be a general apostasy of the Catholic Church which would make it part of the Anti-christ. What is important also is that Lacunza'a book was based upon a futurist interpretation of Bible prophecy. According to http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html Lacunza the Jesuit also claimed that Jesus will return return twice, and on his first return return He "raptures" the Church so they can escape the reign of the "future antichrist." This interpretation of a future Anti-Christ as one man was apparently meant to steer the Protestants away from saying the Pope was the present Anti-Christ.

Edward Irving, an associate of John Darby and the English Plymouth Brethren, discovered Lacunza's book and was influenced by it. He translated it into English, and it was published in 1827.

Dave MacPhearson wrote several books, such as The Rapture Plot, and The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin, The Incredible Coverup, and The Three R’s: Rapture, Revisionism and Robbery. Pre-tribulation Rapturism from 1830 to Hal Lindsey. The last book is, in part, about the many celebrity dispensationalists who plagiarized the writings of other writers.

On one site about MacPhearson, it quotes Martin Luther as saying "The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

Somebody who follows dispensationalism on CDFF claims that Martin Luther rejected the Book of Revelation.

Here is an interesting quote on the same site from Calvin: John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

Calvin had some insight into end time prophecy, in spite of his amillennialism. He understood that in the end times there will come a desolation of the "church." Yet now his followers in the "church" that is in desolation would defend it along with the dispensationalists against the Remnant outside in the wilderness.

OK I want to go back to Dave MacPhearson. Here is what Joe Ortiz said on Facebook in late May:

"Joe Ortiz
We need your prayers for my dear friend and fellow author, Dave MacPherson. He and his wife are right in the middle of a major storm in Kansas and their car is in a ditch and cannot get it out. They are safe but the storm is headed straight to a little town in Kansas where they are holed up! Please keep them in your prayers.
5 hours ago "

Joe Ortiz They are being sheltered up in a small town library of about 900 people with a group of people, storm headed their direction.

Yes, Bernard, that same Dave MacPherson. He told me he is humbled by the response, and so am I. Love you folks, mucho!"

Dave MacPhearson and his wife got back home safely and some of Joe's Facebook Friends sent them money. Dave lives on or near the Solomon River in north central Kansas which flooded in May - and he is not young anymore.


Last edited by northwye on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by Strangelove on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:10 pm

Calvin had some insight into end time prophecy, in spite of his amillennialism.

Your thoughts on this topic North?:

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by northwye on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:23 pm

When I was in a Calvinist type Christian Yahoo Group of few years back, I was more impressed by the lack of understanding and interest in most other end time prophecies by the amillennialists in this group. It seemed to me that the amillennialists in their tendency to use broad sweeping allegory did not really deal with end time prophecy.

Now recently a group of three guys that Randy Maugans set up to do weekly broadcasts suggested there is to be no thousand year reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20: 1-5) because Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world." His kingdom is spiritual and not like the kingdoms of this world influenced by the Dragon. But this does not necessarily mean that Christ cannot establish his spiritual kingdom on earth. He is capable of doing anything he wants to do. Daniel 2: 44 says "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed..." God's kingdom was started during the period of the "iron kingdom, " the Roman empire, and it did begin on this earth. It was not of this world in the sense that it was a carnal kingdom like the Roman Empire.

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by Strangelove on Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:10 am

northwye wrote:But this does not necessarily mean that Christ cannot establish his spiritual kingdom on earth.
That spiritual kingdom has been established already no?

(Colossians 1:12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
(Colossians 1:13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Colossians 1:14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Done deal...am I right?

Am I right or am I right?

Whats left? Christs literal return in the clouds, Judgement and then eternity living with God correct?

..and destruction in the fire for the lozers.

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by northwye on Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:06 pm

When the amillennialists allegorize away Revelation 20: 1-8, there is some information in those verses that is lost, especially Revelation 20: 7-8. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison. and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

If, as the amillennialists say, the thousand years is an allegory for the entire period from the Cross until the appearing of Christ, then Satan would be released at the end of that period.

Or maybe an amillennialist would just ignore Revelation 20: 7-8.

There is a kind of abstract formula in scripture that would predict that Satan might be released at some point. Revelation 17: 11: "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Man was created on the sixth day (Genesis 1: 26, 2:2), and the number of man in Revelation 13: 18 is said to be 666, or 6 repeated three times.

The kingdoms in Daniel 2: are Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and the kingdom of Egypt and the Assyrian Kingdom make this list add up to six kingdoms. In Daniel 2: 44 a seventh kingdom arises during the Roman Empire, the kingdom of God.

Being in God is being in number seven. But man, not being content to stay in God as number seven, moved into number eight, which is a mingling of the Kingdom of God with the kingdom of man.

We can then see that Talmudic
Judaism moved from number seven to number eight. Roman Catholicism moved from the early church period, number seven, to number eight, a mix of man's religion, or pagan religion, with the kingdom of God. Protestant dispensationalism is doing the same thing, but going back to Judaism rather than Catholicism in this process of moving out of number seven to number eight.

The six, seven, eight cycle shown in Revelation 17: 11 can apply to Satan, who was, is not, and comes back. Satan is not during the thousand year reign of Christ, but then he is released and he is again. We have to have faith that he will be done away with permanently later.

I don't think the statement in Revelation 20: 7-8 that Satan will be released can be simply ignored. It has a meaning that must be considered.


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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by Strangelove on Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:12 pm

northwye wrote:I don't think the statement in Revelation 20: 7-8 that Satan will be released can be simply ignored. It has a meaning that must be considered.


I'm pretty sure the mainstream Amil view on that verse is that Satan will be loosed for a little season BEFORE Christ returns.

My own feeling is that it will be the period starting when the dispy nightmare one world government takes complete control with the unmasked son of perdition at its head.

Wont be long from that point till Jesus comes I think:

(Rev 18:10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Little season yes?

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by zone on Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:18 pm

Strangelove wrote:

I'm pretty sure the mainstream Amil view on that verse is that Satan will be loosed for a little season BEFORE Christ returns.

My own feeling is that it will be the period starting when the dispy nightmare one world government takes complete control with the unmasked son of perdition at its head.

Wont be long from that point till Jesus comes I think:

(Rev 18:10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Little season yes?

you are EXACTLY RIGHT DOC: here's what it looks like:

1ST Advent.........a thousand years (messianic era)........SATAN'S SHORT SPACE>>2ND Advent/Wrath /Judgment/ETERNITY
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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by northwye on Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:52 pm

The Six, Seven and Eight Cycle of Revelation 17: 11 Applied to Revelation 20: 1-8

In Revelation 20: 1-3 Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit for a period of time. It says a thousand years. Then Revelation 20: 7-8 says "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

It says after the thousand years, or some period of time, is expired, Satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations, or peoples.

Verse 7 says after this period of time is over, then Satan is released. It does not say near the end of this period he is released.

John is writing about what he saw, but he is also writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic and Calvinist amillennialists say that this release of Satan in verses 7 and 8 refers to Satan's being bound by Christ when he begin to set up his kingdom.

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils." Luke 11: 20-22

Christ overcame Satan when he began the kingdom of God.

"And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." Matthew 12: 27-29

Christ bound the strong man, so Christ could set the strong man's captives free (Isaiah 61:1).

II Thessalonians 2: 7 does say that the restrainer, called "he who now letteth" is to be taken out of the way.

The restrainer is not the Holy Spirit. It probably is one of the faithful archangels.

So all or some of the restraint on Satan will be taken out of the way, and we assume this happens in the end times, perhaps gradually.

But Revelation 20: 7 says Satan will be released at the END of the thousand years, or the end of some time period.

How can the Catholic and Calvinist amillennialists say that Satan is to be released at the end of the tribulation period?

Satan does persecute people on earth more during the tribulation. Revelation 12: 12 says "...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Satan knows that he is going to be fully restrained soon, as Revelation 20: 1-3 says, that he will be bound and thrown into the bottomless pit.

But Satan is less restrained and more fully able to harm people on the earth in the end times and during the tribulation, though God's saints will have some protection from him, if they put on the full armor of God to do spiritual battle (Ephesians 6: 11-18).

The period when Satan is more free to harm those on the earth is not at the very end of the tribulation, because thats when Christ is back on earth. The amillennialists could change the wording of Revelation 20: 7 to say "But near the end of the thousand years, Satan shall be released out of his prison." Then, their interpretation that the thousand years is an allegory of the entire period from the Cross until Christ's return would not be quite so much of a misinterpretation.

Revelation 20: 1- 8 shows two stages of the three stage cycle in Revelation 17: 11, where the beast was, and then is not, and is again as the eighth. This is, more abstractly, a three stage cycle, the beast is, is not, and is again, or, in other words the beast exists as a nation in stage one, and receives a deadly wound (Revelation 13: 3), as stage two, but in stage three his deadly wound is healed (Revelation 13: 3), and the beast exists again. The beast existed before 70 A.D. as a nation, but then in 70 A.D. the nation received a deadly wound, but in 1940 the deadly wound was healed.

So, in Revelation 20: 1-8 it is assumed that in stage one Satan is the strong man running around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (I Peter 5: 8). Then in Revelation 20: 1-3 Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit, which is stage two, but in Revelation 20: 7-8 Satan is released again, which is stage three. In verse 10 he is thrown into the lake of fire.

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by Strangelove on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:40 pm

northwye wrote:How can the Catholic and Calvinist amillennialists say that Satan is to be released at the end of the tribulation period?

Is that what Catholics and Calvinist amillers say?

Hmm.....your right, that doesnt make much sense.

How about if we say that Satan is released just before a great period of tribulation? Like when the son of perdition is revealed shewing himself to be God and leads the dispy's and talmudists in a one world order to kill Christians en masse utilizing noahide law?

Thats my position, (as a non-denom current amiller bounce), does that make more sense?

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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by zone on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:15 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Is that what Catholics and Calvinist amillers say?

Hmm.....your right, that doesnt make much sense.


i don't know what catholics say, nor calvinists.

it says AFTER the thousand years are ended he is released.

that means exactly what it says.
since the exact time of the thousand years isn't given, neither is the short space.

the line of demarcation is that the MESSIANIC PERIOD (a thousand years) IS OVER, and satan's short space begins.

in 2 Thess 2 God sends strong delusion making it impossible for people to receive the truth.

revelation stops saying "and men repented not", and eventaully doesn't metion repentence at all....but "repented not" after a whole pile of obvious judgments seems to say they didn't because they CAN'T.

by then they have taken the Mark and are condemned.

i see no dilemma in the thousand years ending THEN satan being released.

it sure seems to indicate that satan's short space will be quite brief (though it may seem very long).
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Re: Fearless Dave MacPhearson

Post by Strangelove on Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:10 pm

North?

You still there buddy?

This is one of them rare occasions I get to talk to a genuine a Christian about amillenialism without zionists and dominionists butting in.

Did we scare you off?

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