Some More on the 144,000

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Some More on the 144,000

Post by northwye on Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:39 pm

Some More on the 144,000 and the Remnant

What is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? Revelation 7: 3 says "Hurt not the  earth, neither the sea, nor the treesd, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The sealing acts to insure that the 144,000 do not return to the spiritual state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit.

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

In metaphoric language Revelation 14: 1 says the 144,000 stand with Christ, having the Father's name on their foreheads, on mount Zion. They stand in a high place spiritually, meaning they have been raised up high to stand with Jesus Christ. They sing a new song which no one but the 144,000 can learn - which is also metaphoric for a being in a higher spiritual state in their anointing and sealing. They are not defiled with woman, again in metaphoric language, and this fits with their not having guile, meaning they are not deceptive in a world filled with deception. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he leads, and are the firstfruits to God and Christ.

They are a remnant, but this language in Revelation 14 raises them up above other remnants in scripture, such as in Romans 11: 5, the remnant in which God began again his plan of redemption as the New Covenant. However, the Apostles of Christ, who were among that remnant, had a greater anointing directly from Christ than did most of the others There is also the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, who, at the time the serpent-dragon is casting out a flood of lies out of his mouth and is making war with this remnant, are said to have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But you have to go outside of the Book of Revelation to find out what the mission of the 144,000 is.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."................"
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 11: 33-35 and Daniel 12: 3.

The dispensationalists will insist that all the 144,000 are all male Jews and will say that Daniel 11: 33-35 is not about the 144,000 because the 144,000 are not mentioned there. And Daniel 11: 33-35 could be applied to the work of the Apostles of Christ in the First Century, a fulfillment which does not necessarily mean it does not apply to the 144,000.

Isaiah 30:20: " And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:"

Isaiah 30:21: " And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

Isaiah 30: 20 is describing a tribulation time - "the bread of adversity" - when the society, culture and basic morality have fallen - but while this tribulation is going on the teachers are not removed into a corner, but are seen, and Isaiah 30: 21 says those who are able to hear the teachers find the way and walk in it, even in the midst of adversity, affliction and false doctrines all around them.

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood....And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Though stated in a subtle way, Revelation 12: 15, 17 says there is a spiritual conflict going on here between the minions of the serpent-dragon and the woman with her seed, the remnant. Who is this woman? The best candidate for her is in Galatians 4: 26, "...Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

The serpent-dragon acts through his minions the false prophets in casting out of his mouth a flood of lies as he goes to make war against the remnant.

Here is another verse from Isaiah which fits in to the sealing and anointing of the remnant, or the 144,000: Isaiah 10:27: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. "   The 144,000 have the anointing and joy in the Lord, and do not have a yoke around their necks.  The yoke might include, among other things, sticking to that which is literal and of the letter.  They are free, but have Christ in them.

Paul uses "letter" several times in Romans and in II Corinthians. In Romans 2: 29 he says "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..."

In Romans 7: 6 he says "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

In II Corinthians 3: 6 Paul explains more of what he means in saying "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life."

Here is Paul again talking about spiritual life and contrasting it to the letter which kills spiritual life.

I remember being on a Christian Yahoo group in about 2010 when some in the group thought that the 144,000 from all the tribes of Old Covenant Israel in Revelation 7 meant that under the New Covenant we are somehow metaphorically in one of the 12 tribes, and some of the people in the group were speculating about which tribe they might belong to. The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes is not literal, but speculating on which tribe you might belong to is not the way to gain an understanding of this metaphor. The Lord may reveal this to some at a time.

But remember what Paul says in II Corinthians 3: 6, "for the letter killeth, but the spirit given life." The Spirit gives spiritual life and for the 144,000 the literalist viewpoint kills spiritual life.

In Romans 2: 29, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly: and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." means that anyone regardless of his physical DNA (Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28) whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter (literally, physically) is now a Jew, or a member of Israel.

Matthew 24: 21-22, 29-30 says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.........29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The darkening of the sun and moon, stars falling and the heavens shaken sounds like Revelation 8: 7-13. But Matthew 24: 29 says these changes in the heavens, meaning the sun, moon and stars, are to occur after the tribulation. What then is the tribulation?

There is a conflict described in metaphoric language in Revelation 12: 3-6, 14-17 in which the dragon opposes the women and she goes into the wilderness. Again in verse 14 the woman is said to go into the wilderness, and in verses 15 to 17 the dragon-serpent casts a flood out of his mouth, after the woman and goes to make war with the woman's seed, the remnant, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The woman in Revelation 12 would be "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all..." Galatians 4: 26

Daniel 11: 33-35 describes a group, "they that understand," who instruct many and "they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This is again a conflict. Daniel 8: 23 says when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." But look at the transgressors, Strong's number 6586, pasha, "to break away, from just authority, i.e, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend, rebel...." The False Prophets like to quarrel with the word of God, claiming they have the word of God.

Just as there is no one super False Prophet or one man super Anti-Christ (many antichrists running around and the spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4: 3), so the king of fierce countenance who stands up when the transgressors (apostates) are come to the full is not one man. Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24: 5 warns that many shall come in Christ's name, saying the Lord is Christ, but they will deceive many. And again in Matthew 24: 24 Christ warns that 'For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." This is all said before the statement of Matthew 24: 29 saying that after the tribulation the changes in the heavens will occur.

The tribulation, according to Matthew 24 is to be characterized by many false prophets. The false prophets are the human minions who carry out the telling of lies as the flood of lies coming out of the mouth of the dragon-serpent in Revelation 12.

Daniel 11: 33, supported by Isaiah 30:21, describes they that understand teaching many. But "...some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and ti purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end..." Daniel 11: 35.

Daniel 11: 33 says "they" shall fall by the sword, by flame and by captivity. This is a battle, and the apostates who are on one side of this battle are seen in Daniel 8: 23.

The 144,000 are in this battle and since Matthew 24 says the tribulation is a time of the rise of many false prophets, then the 144,000 would have been sealed and anointed for this battle before the tribulation begins or before the worst part begins. They are sealed to face the the tribulation and thus before the earth and heaven changes occur.  But the tribulation, as a period in which the false prophets and spirit of anti-Christ come to the full, is not exactly the dispensationalist seven year tribulation. Dispensationalism does not acknowledge a falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4) and a leavening of the churches (Luke 13: 21), nor would it see the tribulation as a period in which the false prophets are at their height of apostasy. Acknowledging that there has been a falling away and that the tribulation is a period when the false prophets are come to the full (Daniel 8: 23, where the "transgressors" are those who apostatize, quarrel and rebel, that is, the false prophets) might suggest that the dispensationalists are some of the false prophets.

 Daniel 8: 23 says there will be a time when the transgressors or False Prophets will have come to the full. The opposition of two positions, the dialectic, in scripture in the end times is between the False Prophets and the remnant. The False Prophets and their followers, the multitude, are much more numerous than are the remnant.

Recently a guy wrote an attack upon Dean Gotcher, a Christian teacher disliked in the churches because of his teachings, saying of Gotcher that "Gotcher is implementing the dialectic when he exploits the polarization
of church and society into left vs. right wing for his so-called ministry."

He is saying that while Gotcher exposes the use of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic in helping to bring about the present day apostasy of the church, Gotcher makes use of that same dialectic in polarizing church and society into left versus right wing.

The guy is wrong in describing the two positions as left wing versus right wing as far as the church is concerned. Politically, the dispensationalists, for example, are more conservative than are many who are not dispensationalists.

In scripture on the rise of the false prophets and those under the spirit of Anti-Christ in the end time - both have been around all along - make up one position of a two-part dialectic. The other position is held by those who try to hold to the truth. Jude 1: 3 says "...ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." This is the true opposition of positions in scripture.

The false prophets who bring in damnable heresies are also in II Peter 2: 1-3, where they speak evil of the truth, and make merchandise of you. In II Timothy 3: 1, 7-8 in last days of perilous times people are described as being lovers of their own selves, "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"..."these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." The False Prophets and their followers speak evil of the truth, while claiming to have the truth themselves.

The falling away in the end times (apostasy, from the Greek apostasia) of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 happens when the transgressors of Daniel 8: 23 are come to the full, are at their highest point of compromising the teachings of Christ. Paul writes about the same thing in I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 13, and II Timothy 4: 3-4. Luke 13: 18-21 says the kingdom of God will be leavened until whole is leavened. The meaning of leaven in scripture is made clear in Matthew 16: 6, 12, in I Corinthians 5: 6-8 and in Galatians 5: 11.

The falling away from sound doctrine in the end time in the church because of the work of the many false prophets sets up that dialectic or two part opposition between the False Prophets and their followers versus the remnant of Israel.

The amillennial interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent all the saved people of all time, and not a remnant that comes about in the end time. This has been the Catholic position on the 144,000 and many of the traditional Calvinists also. Of course, the amillennial position does not see the 144,000 as being a remnant at the end of the age, right before Christ appears, nor does it see them as a remnant at all.

They have to be a remnant when they are sealed over some period in time. As a remnant, they, like earlier remnants used by God, began anew his work of redemption when the multitude has fallen away into false doctrines and practices. And here is where those in the false doctrines reject this teaching of a falling away and of a remnant that takes up anew the work of redemption for the Lord.

The remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 began again, the work of redemption in a more important way, than did the remnant which under Zerubbabel, Ezra and Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall and temple and restore the Old Covenant. In Haggai 2: 9, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..."

Since the 144,000 are sealed, come into existence, at a specific time, the end time, not long before the return of Christ, they must have a mission. And that mission involves the predicted falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the work of the False Prophets of Matthew 24 in what it called the tribulation.

There are some Old Testament prophecies in Zechariah 13: 8-9 and in Ezekiel 5: 1-12 that are relevant to the remnant, which would include the 144,000. I am not sure at this time whether that remnant mentioned in Revelation 12: 17, having the testimony of Christ, is the 144,000 or not, but they very well could be. This is because of the meaning of the metaphoric language in Revelation 12 about the dragon-serpent casting a flood (of lies) out of his mouth and going to make war with the remnant. This is the time when the False Prophets are at a high point in their work of diminishing the spiritual power of the truth of God's word.

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Zechariah 13: 8-9

The three parts in Zechariah 13: 8-9 do not have to be three exact one-thirds of some population. Its just three groups or parts, where only one part or one group is refined and tried and made a people of God. The one part refined and made a people of God could be a remnant, a few people.

"And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.
2. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. 3. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them." Ezekiel 5: 1-3, 12

Here again, though in metaphoric language, we have three parts. But look, there is another smaller group which is bound in Ezekiel's skirts, which is a remnant. Ezekiel 5 does not say what the Lord plans to do with these few in number bound in Ezekiel's skirts. Putting Ezekiel 5 together with Zechariah 13: 9, we can see that this group of few in Ezekiel's skirts become the people of God.

Hosea 14:9 says "Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein. Who is wise? " Again, those who understand are contrasted in Hosea 14: 9 with the transgressors, the pasha, Strong's 6586, meaning not just those who commit sins, but meaning "to break away from just authority, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend rebel, revolt....."

The opposition, the conflict, the separation, is between those who understand, now the remnant, and the pasha, whose who quarrel with the truth.

The point is that Revelation 7 and 14 on the 144,000 cannot be fully understood in total isolation from other scripture. Scripture must always be interpreted by other relevant scripture, but the other scriptures you use to interpret scripture have to be relevant as you are led by the Holy Spirit in selecting the right scriptures to use.

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28: 10

Isaiah 28: 10 is one authority for interpreting scripture by relevant scripture and not by a tradition of men (Matthew 15: 6, 9).

The woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of the remnant seen in Revelation 12: 17. Revelation 12: 17 says the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, meaning she is their mother metaphorically, just as Paul says in Galatians 4: 26 there is a Jerusalem which is above, is free, and is the mother of us all. The literalists reject this and claim there is only one Jerusalem, which is seen in Galatians 4: 25, the literal Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. Jerusalem is Israel, the Old Covenant in verse 25 and the New Covenant in verse 26, but it is also pointing to Revelation 21: 1-2, the New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The 144,000 are starting to build that new Jerusalem

Paul means the Jerusalem which is above and is free is the mother of all the elect of God. There is no other woman in scripture that fits here. Her seed, the remnant, are either the 144,000, or they are acting in a way like the 144,000 at a different point in the end time, but I suspect they might be the exact same 144,000.

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

It is true that scripture often brings the same gist meanings to us in different surface wordings and by the use of different metaphors. This is why it is so important to understand and follow Isaiah 28: 10, "precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little and there a little," and not try to keep each text isolated in its own compartment. "For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." II Corinthians 3: 6

There is a problem with the translation of the Greek word loipoy in the recent Bible versions for Revelation 12: 17.  Liopoy in Revelation 12: 17 is Strong's number 3062,  remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest. The same Greek word, loipoy is used in Revelation 11: 13, and in Revelation 19: 21, and is translated as remnant in the three early English New Testaments.

In Revelation 11: 5 remnant is from Strong's 3005, leimma, a remainder, remnant.

And in Romans 9: 27 remnant is from Strong's 2640, kataleimma, which Strong's says means "a remainder, i.e, by implication, a few, remnant.

The 1526 Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Iesus Christ."

The 1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17 has "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The third early English Bible, the King James, has "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The New Revised Standard has "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus."

The New International says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

The New King James Version has for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Young's Literal Translation says "and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

All four of the recent English Bible translations shown above translate Strong's number 3062, loipoy, as rest, saying the rest of her seed, or the rest of her offspring.

Here are the Oxford Dictionaries on the meanings of remnant and the rest: Remnant: "Origin: Middle English: contraction of obsolete remnant, from Old French, from remenoir, remanoir 'remain'. "A small remaining quantity of something," "Christian Theology: A small minority of people who will remain faithful to God and so be saved (in allusion to biblical prophecies concerning Israel)." Rest: Origin: Late Middle English: from Old French reste (noun), rester (verb), from Latin restare 'remain," "The remaining part of something," "The remaining people or things; the others," "and (all) the rest (of it)."

Remnant and rest can overlap to some extent in their meanings, in the sense that a remnant is the rest of something which remains, while the larger part does not remain. But translating loipoy as the rest of something tends to lead the meaning away from the Biblical concept of a few people who remain faithful to God, to the doctrines of Christ, while the multitude goes off into false doctrines and practices.

So, there is a change of doctrine, though subtle or ambiguous, from the first three English New Testaments based upon the Textus Receptus, for Revelation 12: 17 on the meaning of loipoy, to the recent English translations, almost all from the Westcott-Hort Greek and not the Textus Receptus.

In his commentary on Revelation 12: 17 John Gill says "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such."

Many or most of the churches in 2015 would not agree with what John Gill says above on Revelation 12: 17, that the remnant is called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times. For the churches there are no corrupt times, no falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4). The dominant tradition of men is dispensationalism. And if you look up on Google the guys on the committee that translated the New King James you will find that most of them were dispensationalists, with a few who were Calvinists. The dispensationalists see no remnant of the church. And in fact scripture never talks about a remnant of the ekklesia, the church, only a remnant of Israel.

This is all related to the mission of the 144,000 and to it being a remnant in the end times with the testimony of Christ when the multitude is off into false doctrines. The doctrine of the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 was changed in a subtle way from that of the earlier Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." II Corinthians 3: 14-16

Translating loipoy (remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest) as the dragon "went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" in a subtle way puts a vail over the understanding of this verse.

Remember that the dragon-serpent is, at this time, casting out of his mouth a flood. This may be too hard for the literalists to understand, but it is saying the same thing as is said in Matthew 24: 5, 11, 24 and in II Peter 2: 1-3 on the false prophets having to come to their full.

The dragon going to make war with the rest of the woman's seed might imply that he is going against some part of her seed. If the woman has more than one group of seeds, then which group would the dragon more likely go after? It would be that part which best has the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are the "rest of her seed." This is the remnant, despite the sleight of hand of the modern Bible version translators in using the word "rest" instead of "remnant." But - after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4,and the heeding of Revelation 18: 4 by the remnant - "Come out of her my people" - the woman of Galatians 4: 25 has one seed, the remnant.

The new Bible version translators not only put a vail over their own understanding of Revelation 12: 17, but also over the understanding of their readers who rely upon these new Bible versions rather than the Tyndale, Geneva and King James Bibles.

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Re: Some More on the 144,000

Post by northwye on Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:21 pm

Revelation 18: 23:  "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

After this happens, the remnant obeys Revelation 18: 4, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Isaiah 37:31 "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:"

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Re: Some More on the 144,000

Post by outsidethecamp on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:39 am

I think the 144,000 is a symbolic or figurative number and does not actually refer to a literal number of men. Numbers are used figuratively and symbolically throughout the book of Revelation (ex. 3 1/2, 7, 10, 12, 24, 666, 144,000). The number 1,000 seems to represent the "completeness" or "entire scope" or "completion" of that which is being described. It is describing the "comprehensiveness" of a thing. Throughout the Scripture it is often used with this meaning. God is said to "keep His covenant and His lovingkindness toward men to the thousandth generation" (Deut. 7:9; I Chron. 16:15; Ps. 105:8). But, this does not mean that after the thousandth generation his lovingkindness ends. That is because it is figurative speech and not a literal "thousandth generation" of mankind? It refers to the comprehensive and eternal completion of God's character. In the book of Psalms, we read that God possesses "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). But, He is not limited to a literal "thousand hills" of cattle. He possesses all the cattle in the world, and the number of "a thousand" is used to point out the complete comprehensiveness of God's possession and control over His creation. 


Is the ten-headed and seven-horned monster to be taken literally. No, then why should we take the thousand year reign of Christ literally and not try to understand the spiritually figurative meaning of it? God never intended for us to use worldly, natural arithmetic to understand the scriptures. We must see with the eyes of our understanding.


Is it possible that the "millenium" or "thousand year reign of Christ" speaks of a comprehensive amount of time before He comes back? Could the "millenenium" be the time since Christ rose from the grave until He reappears? Is not Christ ruling and reigning on earth through His Church? Are we "reigning in life through Christ", or not? Are we "kings and priests in the kingdom", "raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places"? We are reigning with Him for a "thousand years", in other words during this "comprehensive" amount of time between His resurrection and His return. I submit for your consideration, that we are in this "comprehensive" time now, which is spoken of as a "thousand years". 

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Re: Some More on the 144,000

Post by Strangelove on Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:24 am

outsidethecamp wrote:I think the 144,000 is a symbolic or figurative number and does not actually refer to a literal number of men. Numbers are used figuratively and symbolically throughout the book of Revelation (ex. 3 1/2, 7, 10, 12, 24, 666, 144,000). The number 1,000 seems to represent the "completeness" or "entire scope" or "completion" of that which is being described. It is describing the "comprehensiveness" of a thing. Throughout the Scripture it is often used with this meaning. God is said to "keep His covenant and His lovingkindness toward men to the thousandth generation" (Deut. 7:9; I Chron. 16:15; Ps. 105:8). But, this does not mean that after the thousandth generation his lovingkindness ends. That is because it is figurative speech and not a literal "thousandth generation" of mankind? It refers to the comprehensive and eternal completion of God's character. In the book of Psalms, we read that God possesses "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). But, He is not limited to a literal "thousand hills" of cattle. He possesses all the cattle in the world, and the number of "a thousand" is used to point out the complete comprehensiveness of God's possession and control over His creation. 


Is the ten-headed and seven-horned monster to be taken literally. No, then why should we take the thousand year reign of Christ literally and not try to understand the spiritually figurative meaning of it? God never intended for us to use worldly, natural arithmetic to understand the scriptures. We must see with the eyes of our understanding.


Is it possible that the "millenium" or "thousand year reign of Christ" speaks of a comprehensive amount of time before He comes back? Could the "millenenium" be the time since Christ rose from the grave until He reappears? Is not Christ ruling and reigning on earth through His Church? Are we "reigning in life through Christ", or not? Are we "kings and priests in the kingdom", "raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places"? We are reigning with Him for a "thousand years", in other words during this "comprehensive" amount of time between His resurrection and His return. I submit for your consideration, that we are in this "comprehensive" time now, which is spoken of as a "thousand years". 

Oh good morning!

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Re: Some More on the 144,000

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