Dating the Book of Revelation

Dear sir, any version of rev that cannot be tested (including my own) is worthless, even more so if it has already transpired. I too believe the things written to the 7 churches would soon come to pass, not the destruction of jerusalem but impending persecution for failing to participate in emperor cult worship.  Dear sir please outline your understanding of the 8 kings.  It is important.  i will show you why from scripture it is impossible.  i will be waiting.  Thank you, sir.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, any version of rev that cannot be tested (including my own) is worthless, even more so if it has already transpired. I too believe the things written to the 7 churches would soon come to pass, not the destruction of jerusalem but impending persecution for failing to participate in emperor cult worship.  Dear sir please outline your understanding of the 8 kings.  It is important.  i will show you why from scripture it is impossible.  i will be waiting.  Thank you, sir.

Ok John, I will use the example of the 8 kings to prove my point to you.

Here is my understanding of the 8 kings...

I know that the beast is Rome, this much is abundantly clear. The 8 kings on the other hand is so vague that it is not clear for a 21st century Christian to know exactly who is being referred to here.

Maybe for a 1st century Christian it was obvious. Maybe they had information that we don't, so that when they hear of an 8th king who was "of the seven" they would think "oh ya, of course because he that was, and is not! Makes total sense!"

For me, I am content knowing that the Roman empire had a quick fire succession of rulers around the time that Rev was written (and yes, I'm assuming it was written just before 70AD simply because of the 3 reasons I stated in my previous post). I am content with a hazy image in my mind of a scarlet beast and a plethora of rulers and vassal kingdoms tearing around causing havoc on Jerusalem and, on a broader level, Christians also.

So that's where I stand. I know you really want to pin me down on a list of names, but I just don't need to do that.

I tell you what....why don't you pick what you consider to be the most popular list of "kings" that preterists normally refer to.....and refute it. Go for it.

But can you see that even if you manage to do that, it doesn't prove Rev was written post 70AD? Because some people are not dogmatic about who or what the kings are.

Dear sir, yes I want to pin you down to see where you stand. If your stand or mine won't stand the scrutiny of scripture then we are deceived. Period, and end of paragraph.
Everyman feels they are in the right until their neighbor comes and presses them with hard questions. This my brother is how truth is formulated...... in the crucible. Don't be afraid to state plainly what you believe. If it is true that flag will still be flying in the morn when all firey opposition has ceased. Don't be content knowing....... if someone else deconstructs your general assumptions. Truth is truth. I will respond tomorrow. Iron sharpens iron. If you prove me wrong I will take it as from the Lord and count it a great kindness. Your bro, John.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, yes I want to pin you down to see where you stand. If your stand or mine won't stand the scrutiny of scripture then we are deceived. Period, and end of paragraph.
Everyman feels they are in the right until their neighbor comes and presses them with hard questions. This my brother is how truth is formulated...... in the crucible. Don't be afraid to state plainly what you believe. If it is true that flag will still be flying in the morn when all firey opposition has ceased. Don't be content knowing....... if someone else deconstructs your general assumptions. Truth is truth. I will respond tomorrow. Iron sharpens iron. If you prove me wrong I will take it as from the Lord and count it a great kindness. Your bro, John.

I'm not afraid mate....I've already stated plainly what I believe!

That the beast is Rome and the "Kings" are a very vague representation of the successive rulers of that empire.

Your objection is not that I haven't stated what I believe, but that I am not knowledgable enough to have a list of names of these kimgs. Of this offence I am guilty as charged.

I think most preterists tend to go for Julius as the first, but I wouldn't be bold enough to agree nor disagree with this. Truth is I don't really care. As I say, I'm content with the broader picture.

What I'm wondering is.... if, hypothetically, I agreed with you that the Kings represented successive forms of Romish government, with the papacy as the eighth..... why would that prove a post 70AD authorship of the book anyway?

I have given you three proofs already which you do not consider material. Good evening, sir.

Bro John wrote:I have given you three proofs already which you do not consider material.  Good evening, sir.  

Sorry...just list them again for me please in bullet point style if you could?

Good evening, dear sir.

List of Roman Emperors
Julius Caesar 
Augustus 
Tiberius 14-37
Caligula 37-41
Claudius 41-54
Nero 54-68
Galba 68,69
Otho 69
Vitellius 69
Vespasian 69-79
Titus 79-81
Domitian 81-95

Revelation The 8 kings of the Roman Beast Rev 17

The dominant preterist position (hard and soft) is for the 8 kings of Rev 17 to be as follows: Julius Caesar 1, thru Claudius  (the 5 fallen kings)  and Nero 6, (the one who now is during the writing of the bor) But it breaks down for the 7th and 8th king.  Either they make Galba/Otho/Vitellius (reigned for a combined year) the 7th so Vespasian can be the 8th or they allow Galba to be the 7th with Otho being the 8th. 

3 problems 
1.  The 7th king singular not 3 men plural continues a short space
2.  If Otho is 8th he is dead before 70ad.  How shall the 10 horns/kings give their power to him and destroy mbtg? Rev 17:12,13,16,17
3.  Which other king is the 8th?  He is of the 7. Rev 17:11

The only way to make this work grammar wise and historical wise is for Tiberius to be 1st king, Otho the 6th, Vitellius the 7th and Vespasian the 8th.  But if you allow this you must still answer question 3 above.

Bro John wrote:2. If Otho is 8th he is dead before 70ad. How shall the 10 horns/kings give their power to him and destroy mbtg? Rev 17:12,13,16,17

Where does scripture say the ten horns give power to the 8th king? I don't see it in any of the verses you reference?

Bro John wrote:I have given you three proofs already which you do not consider material. Good evening, sir.

Do you mind just summarising again please? If I hypothetically agree with your interpretation of the 8 kimgs why can I not still be of a mind that the book is pre-70AD?

8th king scriptures with 10 horn/kings Rev 17:8-18

1.  Jerusalem did not reign over the kings of the earth in 1st century  Rev 17:18
2.  The inhabitants  of the earth aka all nations had not drunk of the wine of her wrath with the fornicating kings. Rev 17:2, 18:3
3.  Yes there are 2 entities in Rev 17,  but only 1 mystery.  As the 8th king was not yet in power, neither was mbtg. Rev 17:6-8.  

Dear sir, if you say that Rev is about the destruction of mbtg in 70 ad and scripture declares the 8th king is in power at the time, that 8th king must be Vespasian who was ruling at the time and who also had appointed his son Titus to the task. The 6th king (the 1 in power when the bor was written) would be Otho, and the 1st Tiberius.  This is the only way this works. 
 
If Julius Caesar is 1st, Nero is 6th and Otho is 8th.  Otho died before the destruction of Jerusalem.   
If Augustus is 1st, Galba is 6th, and Vitellius is 8th.  Vitellius died before the destruction of Jerusalem.  
If Tiberius is 1st, Otho is 6th, and Vespasian is 8th.  But you must answer the question.  Which of the 7 previous kings was he resurrected from? Rev 17:11.  
If you choose any emperor after Tiberius to be the 1st Caligula, Claudius, Nero, etc. it makes the 8th someone who ruled AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem.


One more thing that just came to me.  Tiberius reigned from 14-37.  That means if the bor is pre 70 it would have to be written then.  That would make it the 1st book of the canon rather than the last.  Also, Peter said that the Gentiles first heard the gospel from his mouth.  That was in 37 with Cornelius.  And Paul was forbidden to go into Asia in Acts 16 in the year 49 which was more than 10 years after Tiberius' death.  What am I getting at?  The 7 churches were not even there to write to at that time.

Bro John wrote:8th king scriptures with 10 horn/kings Rev 17:8-18

I don't know what this means Bro?

Please copy and paste the exact scriptures that say the 10 horns give power to the 8th king?

All I can see is that the 10 horns receive power 1 hour with the beast and give power and strength to the beast.

Revelation 17:12-13 (KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

It doesn't relate these 10 kings specifically to the 8th king from what I read.

It seems plain to me, sir.
Rev 17:12,13 are the scriptures I was referring to.

Bro John wrote:It seems plain to me, sir.
Rev 17:12,13 are the scriptures I was referring to.

Well, this is very interesting because this seems to be the entire crux of your argument. You say if preterism is true then the 8th king must have been reigning when 70AD occurred.

To make this statment you have to change the wording of scripture from "one hour with the beast" to "one hour with the 8th king" to make it sound like the ten horns reign one hour with the beast and give power to it during a specific time point, which is the reign of the last of the kings. The scripture does not make this specification in any way shape or form.

It says the beast. That's it. Beast would equate to Rome/the Roman empire, that's all.
It does not say the last beast.
It does not say the last head.
It does not say the last king.

Without this sleight of hand your thesis collapses sir, and I maintain that a pre-70AD is not only still reasonable...but most likely.

Dear sir, I was taught early on that the opposing side (thought not always enemies) in a discussion upon running out of ammo will begin to sling mud supposing ad hominem attacks are on par or superlative to engaging on the battle field of facts. While I am hurt at your personal return volley , (your comment on sleight of hand which is a very pernicious accusation when dealing with the Word of God) I am not taken by surprise. I have seen it many times before. Deeply felt or ingrained beliefs are hard to part with. But I will treat you as the brother in Christ I believe you to be. Rest assured, brother there is nothing up my sleeve but a desire for the truth. Tomorrow, you shall have my rebuttal. God bless you,.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, I was taught early on that the opposing side (thought not always enemies) in a discussion  upon running out of ammo will begin to sling mud supposing ad hominem attacks are on par or superlative to engaging on the battle field of facts.  While I am hurt at your personal return volley , (your comment on sleight of hand which is a very pernicious accusation when dealing with the Word of God) I  am not taken by surprise.  I have seen it many times before.  Deeply felt or ingrained beliefs are hard to part with.  But I will treat you as the brother in Christ I believe you to be.  Rest assured, brother there is nothing up my sleeve but a desire for the truth.  Tomorrow, you shall have my rebuttal.  God bless you,.  

For what it's worth I think it's a subconsious sleight of hand on your part Bro. You seem to have tunnel vision and this is affecting your ability to assess scripture from neutral ground. I can assure you there is nothing deep or ingrained regarding my beliefs in Revelation as I've only come to my current view a few months ago and would be quite happy to switch if I heard a more convincing argument. I have no dog in this race. I'm not invested.

You, on the other hand.....have written books.

Dear sir, please reread Rev 17:10,11 once again.  That is the nexus that connects beast/king.

Bro John wrote:
But I stand by my analysis that for Vespasian to be the 8th king, Tiberius would be the 1st and therefore Otho the 6th in the year 69.

Who said Vespasian needs to be the 8th king?

Look Bro.....the dominant preterist position as you've pointed out is that Julius is the first, Nero is the 6th who "now is", Galba is the one who is "a short time", the 7th.

This is pretty straightforward.
The question of the 8th....I have not addressed, and is open to a multitude of opinion. It is not strightforward from scripture as the 8th is the same beast as at the start and is also of the 7. Very cryptic. I have never heard a totally satisfactory opinion on the 8th king. Maybe it made perfect sense to 1st century Christians.

What is satisfactory however is the kings 1-7. The general trajectory of the book points fairly obviously at Rome, Jerusalem, and the destruction of the old ways in 70AD and Nero as the 6th reigning at the time ties in nicely with all that. So I'm happy with that and whatever I don't know I'm happy too remain a mystery for now at least.

What you seem to be hung up on is thinking that the 8th king (as in...the next human being ruler after the 7th king) has to be ruling at the time that the 10 horns/kings give their power to the beast, which is not stated anywhere in scripture. This you seem to be doing in an attempt to nail the dating down to absolutely definately post 70AD.....but you have misrepresented scripture mate. Simplez.

Question, is your view of Revelation represented by any recognized scholars of the past at all? I'm wondering if you can point me in the direction of someone else who contends that pre-70AD dating is falsified due to this 8th king timeline issue? I've never heard this particular argument before, cheers.

Dear sir, History says Vespasian was the emperor at time of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 ad. Scripture says that the scb who was, is not (at time of writing of bor) but will return (Rev 17:8 as one of the seven kings as he is the 8th. Rev 17:11. Do you agree or deny that the scb is the 8th king.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, History says Vespasian was the emperor at time of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 ad. Scripture says that the scb who was, is not (at time of writing of bor) but will return (Rev 17:8 as one of the seven kings as he is the 8th. Rev 17:11. Do you agree or deny that the scb is the 8th king.

Bro seriously mate, you keep taking your tunnel vision interpretation and presenting it as "scripture says".

First it was "scripture says" the horns give power to the eighth king.

False! The horns give power to the beast.

Now you say the beast will return as one of the 7 Kings.

False! Scripture simply says the beast is "of the seven". What does that mean? That he is genetically related to them? That he's of like mind? That he is all of the 7 combined in the eighth? Who knows!

Sorry bro but you are not allowed to take what scripture says, edit it according to your personal preferences and then present it to people as holy writ.

I think this was why I found your book so confusing as there were sections where I just thought... huh?..... how the heck did he get there?

This is one intpretation from a published preterist on the "eigth". I've not read any intepretation that is fully satisfying, but this one is OK for me. It's a very, very difficult verse. I'm quite happy to admit that.

9-10 The angel turns to speak of the Dragon's incarnation in the Beast from the Sea. Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. The "seven mountains" again identify the Beast as Rome, famous for its "seven hills"; but these also correspond to the line of the Caesars, for they are seven kings; five have fallen: The first five Caesars were Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. One is: Nero, the sixth Caesar, was on the throne as John was writing the Revelation. The other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while: Galba, the seventh Caesar, reigned for less than seven months.

11 But the fall of the Julio-Claudian dynasty and the severe political chaos attending it must not be interpreted by Christians to mean the end of troubles. For their real enemy is the Beast, who will become incarnated in other Caesars as well. He is also an eighth king, yet is of the seven: the antichristian brutality of succeeding tyrants will mark them as being of the same stripe as their predecessors. Eight is the number of resurrection in the Bible;. John is warning that even though the Empire will seem to disintegrate after the rule of the seven kings, it will be "resurrected" again, to live on in other persecutors of the Church. Yet the Empire's comeback will not result in victory for the Beast, for even the eighth, the resurrected Beast, goes to destruction. The Church will have to exercise patience during the period of the Beast's ascendancy, but she has the assurance that her enemies will not succeed. Their King will be victorious; His servants have been predestined to share in His triumph.

- David Chilton, Days of Vengeance pp 435-437

Quite a significant indicator that Rev was written in the reign of Nero is the identification of this tyrant with the number 666.

It may now be pointed out that in an Aramaic document from Murabba’at . . . , dated to the “second year of the emperor Nero,” the name is spelled נרון קסר as required by the theory [i.e., that 666 signifies Nero]. The last two consonants [...] are damaged, but enough is preserved to show that no vowel-letter was written between [them].

- D. R. Hillers, “Revelation 13:18 and A Scroll from Murabba’at,” Bzdkfin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 170 (Apr. 1963):65. The evidence can be seen by consulting the French work edited by P, Benoit, J. T. Milik, and R. DeVaux, Dticoveties in the Judean Desert ofJordan II (Oxford, 1961), p. 18, plate 29.

נרון קסר



(nrwn qsr, 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 + 100 + 60 + 200 = 666)

“In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. . . . And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet“

- Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 438

“The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem,  having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to  men of approved piety there before the war, removed from  the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan,  called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having  removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely  abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of  Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ  and his Apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying  the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth”  (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3,5).

Rogers, Jay. In The Days of These Kings: The Book of Daniel in Preterist Perspective (p. 201). Media House International, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple,  how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on  the building, and not on their God that made them, as being  a house of God … So it came to pass; for because they  went to war, it was pulled down by their enemies (Barnabas  16:1,4).

Timeline of the Events of Revelation  December AD 64 – John writes to the seven churches in Asia Minor.  64-65 – Chapters 1-3 fulfilled = Persecution begins under Nero in December  64; Churches in tribulation.  65-66 – Chapters 4,5 fulfilled = Open vision of the throne room of heaven;  Churches in tribulation.  September 66 – Chapters 6-12 fulfilled = Signs of the times begin in  Judea; The Roman-Jewish War begun by Nero; Vespasian and Titus sent to  Galilee and Judea.  April 67-70 – Chapters 13-17 fulfilled = The Great Tribulation begins;  Roman troops arrive in Judea.  – June 29th, 67 – The Apostles Paul and Peter martyred in  Rome according to Church tradition.  – June 9th, 68 – The Beast (Nero) killed.  – December 69 – September 70 – The revived Beast’s  (Vespasian) war with the Jews.  September 70 – Chapters 18,19 fulfilled = Destruction ofthe Temple by  Vespasian’s troops under the command of his son, the general Titus.  Post AD 70 – Chapters 20-22 fulfilled = The kingdom of God in history and  eternity.

Rogers, Jay. In The Days of These Kings: The Book of Daniel in Preterist Perspective (p. 286). Media House International, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Eusebius writes in Ecclesiastial History III:5:  But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been  commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved  men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell  in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those  that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem,  then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land  of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment  of God at length overtook those who had committed  such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally  destroyed that generation of impious men…. [A]nd how  at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the  prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of  old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final  destruction by fire, – all these things any one that wishes  may find accurately described in the history written by  Josephus

'It seemed good to the Greeks of Asia, in the opinion of the high priest Apollonius of Menophilus Azanitus: “Since Providence, which has ordered all things and is deeply interested in our life, has set in most perfect order by giving us Augustus, whom she filled with virtue that he might benefit humankind, sending him as a savior, both for us and for our descendants, that he might end war and arrange all things, and since he, Caesar, by his appearance (excelled even our anticipations), surpassing all previous benefactors, and not even leaving to posterity any hope of surpassing what he has done, and since the birthday of the god Augustus was the beginning of the good tidings [εὐαγγέλιον] for the world that came by reason of him,” which Asia resolved in Smyrna.

Priene Calendar Inscription

The statue of Claudius as Jupiter is located in the Vatican museum. It depicts the Emperor Claudius (ruled from 41-54 AD) as the king of the gods, Jupiter. An eagle, Jupiter's sacred animal, can be seen by Claudius' side while he holds the scepter that symbolizes Jupiter's power. However, instead of a lighting bolt, Claudius holds a libation dish in his right hand.

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