Amillennialism

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, I believe The Olivet Discourse is about 70 ad predominantly.  Daniel 9:24-27 is about Jesus.  Some would say I am preterist.  But the 2 scriptures in Acts I mention will not allow the possibility of full on preterism.  The times of restitution of all things (the new body) in conjunction with the last enemy (death) being placed as a stool under Christ's feet occur at the last or the 7th trumpet blast. This is not 70, but the end of the world. This is what Christ is anticipating, the collection of His bride and the annihilation of His enemies.  If you like I can send a link for the book. (70 pgs)

I'm fairly happy calling myself orthodox preterist.
I understand the stigma around the title "preterist" and the need to seperate oneself from the full pret. teaching for clarity.

So......these installments you are posting of the book, it's a finished work correct? Yes I'd love a link to it Bro.

My current work I am posting on the kingdom is a promise I made to my brother who is on the fence regarding end time things.  I made an outline for him which when I recently began fleshing out turned into the chapters you read now. It is not yet finished.  My first book is "Solving God's End - Time Time - Line Puzzle"  I will send it to your email address if you like.  Although I believe some of rev and most of the olivet is about 70 i believe much more of rev is about the resurrection until the end

Great...I PM'd you my email.

Dear sir, as i mentioned i have been writing this piece on the fly and was not satisfied with order and flow.  i redid and reposted just now and am have starting chapter 9.  Thank you for the opportunity to set forth this work.  plz let me know any criticisms you may have whatsoever, whether they be content, flow, doctrine, application, or proper argumentation, etc.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, as i mentioned i have been writing this piece on the fly and was not satisfied with order and flow.  i redid and reposted just now and am have starting chapter 9.  Thank you for the opportunity to set forth this work.  plz let me know any criticisms you may have whatsoever, whether they be content, flow, doctrine, application, or proper argumentation, etc.

Bro I have no real criticism other than your strange use of spaces between hyphens which takes some getting used to.  

I dunno if you watched any of Steve Greggs videos on Rev yet but...looking at the summary you write in "Solving" under the heading A Simplified End – Time Time – Line.....I don't see too much variance in where you, he and me are currently at. Possibly disagree over Rev chap 10 which you see as the second advent correct?

In a nutshell...there is a mix of preterist and idealist viepoints in Greggs presentation. Don't quote me on it but I believe it's chapters 1-9 preterist.....10-13 idealist (although John alludes to the beast of the readers time being Nero 666)...and then 14-18 preterist again...then 19 to 22 idealist. Definition of idealist basically being...the Church age.
Not sure about chap 19...I might have to rewatch that episode axtually.

Anyways....you're book was a good read bro, and you have a likeable style. Honestly I found myself a bit lost at some stages but I'm sure it's only because your scholarship far exceeds my own meagre efforts, and being UK born and bread I'm not overly familiar with the finer details of the Dispy argument as that leaven hasn't fully overtaken us over this side of the pond yet and that seems to be the main opponent you're targeting.

I would also say that if you ever decide to go further with that book I would do a quick find and replace to dispense with all the abbreviations as it does make you have to do a bit of thinking and even go back to the glossary at the start. I totally understand saying dispensational premillenialist is a horrible mouthful but the thing is....the reader actually abbreviates in their head anyway. Like I always think "dispy premiller" instead of actually reading the whole waffly lot, so you don't really need to do that. When I see pretribualtion rapture I just think "pretrib", when I see mark of the beast I just think "mark" etc etc.

Look forward to more installments of your current work Bro. God keep you.

Dear sir, I emailed you a conversation from a blogspot with a partial preterist.  I look forward to your thoughts.

Dear sir, I had begun a short work on the id of Mystery Babylon the Great in between another work entitled "the one and only glorious gospel", and my current work, "the present day kingdom of heaven"  you may find it interesting.

9b
Concerning the Dispensational record of the Millennium I have a question: How could the “supposed” earthly Millennium of the Futurists come to pass if it begins 7 years after a “supposed” imminent pre - tribulation rapture?  Answer.  It is impossible.  For at the time of the pre- tribulation rapture all of the saved and all those baptised but not having reached the “Age of Accountability '' are whisked away into heaven.  But a child of 11 years of age or younger at the time of the 2nd Coming would not be destroyed would he?  This child would go into the kingdom along with Jews who were old enough to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, take in the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick, and comfort the prisoner. (Matthew 25:35,36) What am I getting at?  These all had to be born prior to the time of an imminent pre - tribulation rapture or there would be nobody to inherit the kingdom.  I did not say some but these specifically for Christ said, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you, you, YOU, YOU from the foundation of the world.” (Matthew 25) He tells them collectively and individually.  The kingdom was prepared for them; each and all.  The Dispensationalist/Futurist imminent pre -tribulation rapture cannot occur, therefore, until all of these had been born.  Imminence is therefore not imminent at all.  It follows then that neither can the Futurist 7 year Great Tribulation commence, their 2nd Coming be realized, and their Millennium be ushered in until the time of their births as all of these Dispensationalist teachings are directly tied to it.  Furthermore, keep in mind that immediately upon the heels when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God then cometh the end.  No time for a millennium.  Imminency has breathed its last.  It is dead.  Regarding Preterists, I have but one more thing to say.  The next time you see a Preterist ask if you may prick the tip of his finger with your penknife to see if he bleeds. (Luke 24:39) If he does he is not in his glorified body for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 15:50)

Having proved that Jesus cannot leave heaven until the full restoration of all things when all enemies shall be subdued (the resurrection of His saints) and having proved the trio of scriptures from Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 are not describing Jesus coming  initially to set up His glorious kingdom, the question which naturally arises is when and how did He come?  Wait, what?  The Dispensationalists and Preterists do believe that these scriptures equate with the glorious kingdom of Jesus?!?  We will first look first at the Futurist version.  

9e
Getting back to our scripture that the kingdom of God comes not with observation do you recall Jesus telling Nicodemus that those born of the Spirit were as the unseen wind, noticeable only by its effects? (John 3:8) We will return to this thread in short order.  Allow us now to unearth still more of the Title Deed with another scoop of our shovel.  Here is Luke 17:21. (my emphasis)  


“Neither shall they say Lo Here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”  


Do you understand what you just read?  The kingdom is not confined to space/time.  Do you recall Jesus’ words to the Samaritan Woman at the Well?  He told her that the hour was coming so that neither in Jerusalem would the Father be worshipped.  Worship from that very hour was now lifted from a where/when proposition to a state/how frame of reference; that is by the Spirit. (John 4:21-24) But my ‘ist’ friends are very adamant to point out that the King James translators and those of the ASV, ERV, LSV, WEB, and YLT are in error.  They maintain that the phrase “within you” is an incorrect translation and is better rendered “among you”, or “in your midst.”  But they have failed to look around the corner to see the problems associated with that interpretation.   What do I mean?  Well, if the kingdom was then and there “in their midst” or “among them” then that means Jesus was king then…..before the cross.  We have proved over and over again that the kingdom was received in heaven; that is in the far country but after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.  Therefore, when Jesus ascended the kingdom was no longer in their midst of the disciples.  My “ist” friends fail to see the kingdom for what it is…a spiritual kingdom.  We have proved that Jesus came by proxy in 70 AD via the Roman army.  We shall now prove that He came to establish His glorious kingdom in the same manner at Pentecost.  With this additional downward thrust of the shovel we have hit paydirt and I can see the entirety of that Great Heavenly Land Grant. It is found in John 14:16-20 (with my emphasis)  


16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;  
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.  
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  
19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.  

My brother, Jesus said He would come in His kingdom.  And He did.  Do you see Him?  Again, if we are not thinking of the kingdom in terms of the spiritual state we will miss it and its King at every turn.  Jesus ‘came’ in the proxy of ‘His army’, the Roman Legions for the purpose of judgment; to exact the prophesied final punishment on the old economy.  He ‘came’ in the proxy of the Holy Ghost for the purpose of merciful salvation; to establish and confirm the New Covenant and its kingdom promises to all who would believe.  The world cannot SEE Him because they do not KNOW Him.  And the reason they do not know Him is because they are not living unto Him, and so being estranged from Him are not alive unto/with and in Him, but are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.  The 1st resurrection of Revelation 20 is not a bodily resurrection.  It is a spiritual one.  This is why the 2nd death has no power on them who are born of the Spirit.  The Spirit quickened us or made the dead alive and removed us out of the Strong Man’s house and thereafter translated us into the kingdom of God’s dear Son.  

Sir, ma’am, I beg you; do not miss this.  This is the key that unlocks and opens the kingdom door.  Jesus came to His people that were previously not a people and gave them the kingdom of glory at Pentecost, thereby filling the New Testament Temple. (Luke 12:32, Acts 2:3, Exodus 40:34-38, I Kings 78:10,11)  Paul puts it like this: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”, and John says, “I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfect in one. (Colossians 1:27, John 17:23) 


Allow me to pivot for a moment in order to make my final point.  Do you recall Jesus’ words from the 3 synoptic writers to the 12 during The Last Supper?  He told them to drink the blood of the New Covenant and afterward spoke these words. (SUPPLIED with my emphasis) 


BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.  Matthew 26:29 


VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.  Mark 14:25


FOR I SAY UNTO YOU, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.  Luke 22:18


So let’s break these scriptures down so we may put them back together again.  Not surprisingly, our wee little word until has made another appearance, thus dividing our verse, left and right.  We will dissect the 2 phrases on the left 1st.  Mark chooses the wording. “Verily I say unto you” just as he did in Mark 9:1 while the other 2 do not.  The next phrase regarding not drinking of the fruit of the vine is very insightful.  Roman Catholics teach that after the consecration of Christ and the priest there is no more wine in the cup, but His literal blood only.  They miss it just as the other “ists” for the words that Jesus spoke were Spirit and life.  (John 6:53-63) A question: How long is the self imposed moratorium on the drinking of wine to last?  Luke answers when the kingdom of God has come.  So where does this fit in with Preterist eschatology for they maintain that the kingdom came at the time Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed.  Was Christ toasting Titus with his victory?  Of course not.  The other 2 evangelists give a curious twist on the when question.  Mark adds the phrase drink it new, while Matthew adds with you.  


Do you recall our scripture from the Apostle Paul regarding what the kingdom is and is not?  It is not dependent upon natural things to maintain it; such as bread and wine. Here is Romans 14:17 with emphasis.   “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, peace and joy…”  But where?  In the Holy Ghost.  With this in mind why would Christ say He would not drink wine until the day He drank it with His disciples in the kingdom?  And why would He state He would not drink it until He drank it new with them?  Do you recall the account of the coming of Jesus in His kingdom by His proxy the Holy Ghost at Pentecost?  When the amazed multitude came together to witness the wonderful sight there were some among them who mocked; perhaps being the same men of whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27.  Their retort was this: “These men are full of new wine.”  (Acts 2:13) But Peter said they were not drunk with wine but conducted themselves in accordance with the Prophecy of Joel wherein the recipients of the Holy Ghost were moved upon by His holy influence. (Acts 2:15-18)  Do you demur?   Remember, the Spirit was not poured out until Jesus was glorified. The Spirit being poured out is proof that Jesus had received the kingdom. (John 7:37-39) On that great day of the Church the disciples were drinking the new wine of the Spirit together with their elder brother and Father in the Spirit.  They were 1.  The kingdom had come.  
 

To be continued, Lord willing.

Bro John wrote:Sir, ma’am, I beg you; do not miss this.  This is the key that unlocks and opens the kingdom door.  Jesus came to His people that were previously not a people and gave them the kingdom of glory at Pentecost, thereby filling the New Testament Temple. (Luke 12:32, Acts 2:3, Exodus 40:34-38, I Kings 78:10,11)

Hey Bro...

If the kingdom only came at the time of pentacost, how do you reconcile this?

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Didn't the kingdom come at least when Jesus was casting out devils?

I would go further and say Jesus was surely born king, and was king throughout His life...so can someone be a king without a kingdom?

Matthew
Chapter 2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Having completed our look at the prophesied king/kingdom we now turn our gaze upon its announcement.  Before moving on to this 3rd in the series’ installment we must give two needful reminders gleaned from Part 2.  First, per Jesus Parable of the 10 Pounds the Nobleman travels to a far country to receive the kingdom and upon his return immediate judgement of servant and citizen follows.  Why?  The kingly reign had occured in the far country; that is, heaven.  Second, Jesus was crucified for being a king.  Please allow me to repeat.  Christ was crucified for being a king.  Please, I implore you to let these things sink down in your ears and meditate on them.


I now place before you what many call “The Annunciation”, the words of the Angel, Gabriel to the virgin, Mary regarding her soon to be born son, taken from Luke, chapter 1 with my emphasis. 


26.  And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 
27.  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 
28.  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29.  And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 


30.  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.


31.  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 


32.  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 


33.  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 


I begin by commenting on Luke 1:32.  Recall, please, that the prophetic scripture from Daniel 7:13,14 in conjunction with the corroborating scripture from Acts 1:9,10 (See Part 2) prove that THIS IS THE TIME when the Lord God gave Mary’s Son “the throne of his father, David.”  Remember that Christ came TO the Ancient of Days and not FROM Him. This is crucial to rightly dividing the Word of Truth.  This is confirmed in Revelation chapter 5.   We see Jesus as the slain Lamb of God as well as the Lion of Judah who having prevailed or overcome is permitted to loosen the seals of God’s Book.  Jesus overcame. (Revelation 5:5,6) Please hear His words to the Church of Laodicea in Revelation, chapter 3, with my emphasis. 


21.  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne


Jesus is on the throne.  He is reigning.  Now, allow me to direct your attention to those whom Christ governs in verse 33. They are not everyone indiscriminately, but “the house of Jacob”.  But why Jacob?  Jacob was a swinder par excellence. (See Genesis 25:26 29=34, and 27:1-38) But when God put forth His finger and touched him, however, he became Israel, a prince with God. (See Genesis 32:24-32)  Jacob is a picture of all who are born from above; sinners turned saints.  The scripture states that he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart. (See Romans 2:28,29)  Paul also tells us that not all Israel is Israel. (Romans 9:6)  Lastly, the scriptures declare that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. (Galatians 3:26-29) So the “House of Jacob'' cannot possibly be made up of unbelieving Jews, nor believing Jews, only. 

Christ rules and reigns over believers, “the house of Jacob forever”.  These are his servants, whether they be Jew or Gentile.  They are the heavenly 24 elders, of which the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are illustrative along with the twelve gates and the twelve foundations of the heavenly city. (See Revelation 4:4, 9-11, 11:16, 19:4, and 21:9,10) A question for you.  Are you seated with Christ by faith in heavenly places NOW in the New Jerusalem?  (See Ephesians 2:4-7, Galatians 4:21-31,  Hebrews 12:22,23, and Revelation 21:1,2,10)  If so, you are of the House of Jacob, whether ye be Jew or Gentile.  The end result of the citizens in ‘The Parable of Talents’ who hated their Lord and would not submit to his reign was destruction upon his return. The Nobleman did not reign over them.   Likewise, when Christ returns to earth having reigned over the House of Jacob from heaven He will likewise destroy all that hate Him. 


Dear sir, for Christ to rule over believers He had to conquer spiritual enemies. This took place during His sinless life and vicarious death. He had to overcome death, then He sat down in His Father's throne.


The Jews had the kingdom. It was taken away from them. Remember we have been translated out of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son.

Hey Bro...

If the kingdom only came at the time of pentacost, how do you reconcile this?

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Didn't the kingdom come at least when Jesus was casting out devils?

I would go further and say Jesus was surely born king, and was king throughout His life...so can someone be a king without a kingdom?

Matthew
Chapter 2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Dear sir.  No Christian would argue that God is not king from all eternity.  If He was king once He must be king forevermore.  Neither then can there be argument that He who was God was also king by virtue of His place in the Godhead at His incarnation.  Gabriel told Mary that God would give Jesus (future) the throne of His father, David. So, He did not have it prior to.  The casting out of demons does demonstrate the kingdom.  But casting the devil out of a man is 1/2 the work.  That man may be repossessed.  Man must also be taken out of Satan's domain.  Not only must the Devil be taken out of a man's house; his body (which Jesus did during His earthly ministry) so too must the man be taken out of the devil's house; his domain. (which Christ did at the crucifixion/resurrection)  We were translated into His kingdom never to go back to Satan's domain, never to be possessed by him bodily ever again.  (Colossians 1:13)  This is the 1st resurrection.  

Daniel 2:44 says in the days of these kings (10 toes of Nebbie's Metal Man) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed) Who are these kings?  I laid out what I hope is a biblical case for the 10 Caesars from 27; the beginning of the 70th week when Christ announced the at hand kingdom thru 95 when the book of Revelation was written.  This is when the kingdom was set up; its beginning.  It was not present beforehand.  

As Christ cannot leave heaven bodily to bring the kingdom, (Acts 2:34, 35, 3:19-21) He came in His proxy the Holy Spirit to bring us the kingdom.  Remember the nobleman (Christ) had to leave (the earth) and go to the far away country (heaven) in order to receive the kingdom.  (Luke 19:11,12)  He did just this (Daniel 7:13,14)  The kingdom was received by Christ at His resurrection.  (Psalms 2:6,7)  This begotten is not incarnation but resurrection.  (I Peter 1:3, Acts 13:33)     

Yes, Jesus was born king of the Jews, but they rejected Him as they must have done, never more however to be rejected of the true spiritual sons of Jacob.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir.  No Christian would argue that God is not king from all eternity.  If He was king once He must be king forevermore.  Neither then can there be argument that He who was God was also king by virtue of His place in the Godhead at His incarnation.  Gabriel told Mary that God would give Jesus (future) the throne of His father, David. So, He did not have it prior to.  The casting out of demons does demonstrate the kingdom.  But casting the devil out of a man is 1/2 the work.  That man may be repossessed.  Man must also be taken out of Satan's domain.  Not only must the Devil be taken out of a man's house; his body (which Jesus did during His earthly ministry) so too must the man be taken out of the devil's house; his domain. (which Christ did at the crucifixion/resurrection)  We were translated into His kingdom never to go back to Satan's domain, never to be possessed by him bodily ever again.  (Colossians 1:13)  This is the 1st resurrection.  

Daniel 2:44 says in the days of these kings (10 toes of Nebbie's Metal Man) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed) Who are these kings?  I laid out what I hope is a biblical case for the 10 Caesars from 27; the beginning of the 70th week when Christ announced the at hand kingdom thru 95 when the book of Revelation was written.  This is when the kingdom was set up; its beginning.  It was not present beforehand.  

As Christ cannot leave heaven bodily to bring the kingdom, (Acts 2:34, 35, 3:19-21) He came in His proxy the Holy Spirit to bring us the kingdom.  Remember the nobleman (Christ) had to leave (the earth) and go to the far away country (heaven) in order to receive the kingdom.  (Luke 19:11,12)  He did just this (Daniel 7:13,14)  The kingdom was received by Christ at His resurrection.  (Psalms 2:6,7)  This begotten is not incarnation but resurrection.  (I Peter 1:3, Acts 13:33)     

Yes, Jesus was born king of the Jews, but they rejected Him as they must have done, never more however to be rejected of the true spiritual sons of Jacob.

OK that's a fair explanation, cheers Bro.

So...the 10 toes on the metal man are 10 Caesars....why can't the 7 heads on the beast in Revelation be 7 of those Caesars? Seems to be the most straightforward and logical assumption for a 1st century reader no? And this would also point to a date of Revelation as in Nero's reign as he was the 6th head ("now is") and Galba was next ("for a short time"). Also in Rev 13 we get a hint of the beast (oppressive pagan empire) in Johns time as being linked to a man which is 666 Nero..the only obvious candidate.

Dear sir, I have been hashing and rehashing the scriptures on the date of the writing of the bor.  As I suspected, John left us a clue as to the timing of the writing before / after 70 as he did in his gospel John 5:1.  I will respond to your email account.  I pray the best New Year for you, sir.  We will soon desperately need the Lord Jesus as never before.

Dear sir, I just sent my piece to your email.  I meant to type horns and not heads in the 2nd to last paragraph.

strangelove wrote:

Not really bro because earth can mean land as well. Not identical at all.

For example Rev 1:7 says...Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Kindreds means clan or tribe and I take this to mean tribes of the land, Jews....not nations of the whole world.
Tribe is usually a descriptor of the Israelites right? Not the peoples who made up the nations.

So you can't really say that "inhabitants of the earth" is 100% gentile nations.
It can mean dwellers in the land, that land being Israel.

Bro.....Rev is just borrowing terminology from OT texts like Jeremiah. Jerusalem is likened to Babylon, so John uses the same kind of phrasiology. This is very broad picture painting mate...he's not trying to nail down exact particulars about who exactly is responsible for who's apostacy....they are all mad drunk together.

Jer 51:7-8 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

I'm really not seeing this point at all ruling out a pre 70AD writing of Rev.

Yes and I am absolutely saying that Israel, just by fornicating with the "kings of the earth" are responsible for the nations remaining in darkness. They were supposed to spread the truth of Jehovah and instead reinforced the heathen religions and even copied them!

Dear sir, I do not wish to beat a dead horse to death.  Earth can mean land but not here.  John told us "the inhabitants of the earth" were made drunk.  Certainly we are not talking about land.  John and the Holy Ghost equated "the inhabitants of the earth" with "all nations" which have not ever been Jews.  Certainly, you do not equate nations with terra firma.  I don't know how else to explain that to you.     

The word kindred is a clan or tribe derived from a common ancestor which would apply to all, Jew and Gentile, alike.  Sir, the text says the people of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.  Dear sir, the Gentiles were mad upon their idols prior to coming in contact with Israel.  The Jews were not the causation of Gentile idolatry then, whether it be Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek, or Roman.  Remember, the Israelites  brought the Egyptian gods with them at the time of the Exodus.  Remember, Balaam told Balak how to trip up the Israelites and make them sin.  It was the other way around, sir. But not now.  The last word on this segment is yours.

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, I do not wish to beat a dead horse to death.  Earth can mean land but not here.  John told us "the inhabitants of the earth" were made drunk.  Certainly we are not talking about land.  John and the Holy Ghost equated "the inhabitants of the earth" with "all nations" which have not ever been Jews.  Certainly, you do not equate nations with terra firma.  I don't know how else to explain that to you.     

The word kindred is a clan or tribe derived from a common ancestor which would apply to all, Jew and Gentile, alike.  Sir, the text says the people of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.  Dear sir, the Gentiles were mad upon their idols prior to coming in contact with Israel.  The Jews were not the causation of Gentile idolatry then, whether it be Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek, or Roman.  Remember, the Israelites  brought the Egyptian gods with them at the time of the Exodus.  Remember, Balaam told Balak how to trip up the Israelites and make them sin.  It was the other way around, sir. But not now.  The last word on this segment is yours.

I made a new thread here bro...Dating the Book of Revelation

When there arose a King in Egypt who did not know Joseph, the Egyptians reduced the Hebrews to hard bondage and then began a horrific campaign of genocide against them. (See Genesis 15:13, 14, and Exodus 1:8 - 22) Would you say this was Great Tribulation?   In Babylon, King Nebuchadnezzar made a golden image sixty cubits high and six cubits wide which was to be worshipped when music from six instruments was played.  Here we have 60-6-6 and the image of the beast.  The penalty for not bowing in worship was to be thrown into a fiery furnace.  Could this be construed as Great Tribulation? (Daniel Chapter two) King Darius of the Medes signed a decree that no petition or prayer could be made of God or man for thirty days except through him.  Is this not man becoming God? (See II Thessalonians 2:4) The penalty for transgression -- the lion's den. Would this pass as Great Tribulation? (Daniel Chapter six) Mordecai refused to bow to Haman, who exercised all the power of the Persian Beast King before him, and as a result genocide of the Jews was declared. (See Esther 3:1 - 15, and Revelation 13:11, 12) Is this Great Tribulation?  What of The King of the North, Antiochus Epiphanes?  (See Daniel 11:21 - 45) He polluted the temple sanctuary by placing an abomination of swine’s flesh on the altar of God.  He corrupted many by flattery, and those he could not corrupt he robbed or imprisoned.  The rest he slew with fire or sword. He even spoke great words against God.  Who else does this but the Beast from the Sea?  (See Revelation 13:5, and Daniel 11:31 - 36) Please answer.  How could a tribulation be any greater?   
 

Moving to the New Testament I ask: What of the tribulation Peter and Paul faced at the hands of the beast - king, Caesar, Nero in the 1st Roman persecution in the year 67: one a crucifixion and the other a beheading?  What of the many others who were covered with tar - pitch then lighted on fire to serve as torches in his garden, or those sewn up in the skins of wild beasts and harassed to death by wild dogs?  What of them who were thrown to the lions for sport in the Roman Coliseum?  What of the 2nd Roman persecution John faced at the hand of the beast, Domitian beginning in 81?  It is said he survived being boiled in oil. What of the suffering and tribulation that Smyrna and others were to face perhaps under the 7th persecution of the beast - Emperor, Decius, beginning in 249?  That church was admonished by the glorified Christ to remain faithful unto death! (See Revelation 2:10) Why?  They were required on pain of death to offer a pinch of incense and swear by the genius of the Emperor.  Translation -- Publicly perform worship unto Caesar and profess that he is Lord.  Was this not Great Tribulation?  What of the prohibition of buying and selling in the Agora, the Ephesian marketplace without 'the mark'?  What of the tribulation that was to come upon the whole (Roman) world with the tenth persecution under the beast - Emperor, Diocletian, beginning in the year 303? (See Revelation 3:10) What of all the other persecutions of Christians down through the ages? If you have never read Foxe's Book of Martyrs get a copy and read it.  If you have read it, please read it again. 

Allow me now to put forward some scriptures referencing tribulation for the New Testament Church.  Hear Jesus' words to His disciples in John's Gospel, chapter sixteen on the night of his arrest. (my emphasis)    
 
33 In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.            
 
Now hear Luke from the fourteenth chapter of his Acts of the Apostles. (my emphasis) 
 
21 And when they [Paul and Barnabus] had preached the gospel to that city, [Derbe] and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, [where Paul had recently been stoned and left for dead] and to Iconium, and Antioch, 
 
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.   
 
My friend, tribulation is not the exception for the child of God, but rather the rule.  No, one says. This is not the time of The Great Tribulation for that time is to be the worst ever.  Listen to what Paul says concerning himself.  He received 39 lashes 5 times.  He was beaten with rods 3 times and stoned 1 time.  Lastly, he was martyred for the faith.  (See II Corinthians 11:24 - 27) If this does not pass for Great Tribulation, I ask you what does?  Could you suffer the same?  One thing more.  Notice carefully the unbreakable relationship between tribulation and the kingdom.  Much tribulation is the gate through which we enter the kingdom.  Do you understand what you just read?  Allow me to write it in the reverse using a mathematical formula:  No much tribulation = No Kingdom.  Brother, do you have tribulation?  How about you, sister?       
 
We now look at some of the scriptures that contain the word suffer, suffered, and suffering in the New Testament.  The first is from Paul's epistle to the Romans chapter eight. (my emphasis)  
 
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:  
 
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    
The second is from his Epistle to the Philippians chapter one. (my emphasis)
 
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.  
 
Our third example is in Paul's second letter to Timothy, chapter two. (my emphasis) 
 
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 
 
My friend look hard at these scriptures.  Perhaps you are turning in your Bible to check to see if I have typed them correctly.  Who preaches these things in our 'name it, claim it' 'feel good' 'prosperity gospel' today?  More importantly, who lives them?  May I translate these scriptures for you in the form of a mathematical equation?  Suffering = Believing  = Reigning = Glory.  Now for the reverse: No Suffering = No Believing = No Reigning = No Glory.  Do you believe?   
 
Hear one more scripture spoken by Jesus from John's gospel, chapter fifteen. (my emphasis) 
 
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.    
 
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.   
 
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord.  If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you, if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.   
 
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 
 
Pardon me for multiplying examples, but it is altogether necessary that we understand that tribulation for the elect saint is perpetual. It doesn't begin 7 years or 3 ½ years before the Second Coming.  If tribulation was limited to 7 years and began with a rapture at the midpoint in conjunction with the antichrist halting animal sacrifices and demanding worship in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem don't you realize it would be very easy to determine the date of the Second Coming thereby accomplishing what Jesus said no man could know?  Friend, New Testament saints look/are looking for Jesus precisely because they/we were/are in fact in tribulation.  Can you not see it?  If we cannot it must be that we are not experiencing it.  And if it is not a present reality with us we must sit down and honestly ask ourselves if we belong to Christ.... or not?          
 
Friend, the saints' tribulation is a perpetual test at the hands of Satan to prove that they/we love not their/our own lives to the death in order for them/us to overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their/our testimony. (See Job 1:6 - 12, 2:1 - 6, Daniel 11:35, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, 7:9 - 17, 12:11) The substance, severity, and location of that tribulation ebbs and flows over time as Christ sees fit.  Recall that Jesus' promises are only to the overcomers in THE CHURCH.  Tribulation is the means whereby saints prove to do and be just that. (Revelation 2:7 2:11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21) Tribulation works patience, and it is in patience that we possess our souls. (Romans 5:3, 12:12, Luke 21:19, and II Corinthians 7:4) My friend, tribulation is not your enemy.  It is not to be run from as you have been taught but embraced as a friend.

Having said that I hope to have you understand that the tribulation reserved for the wicked at the end of the world is not the same in essence as the tribulation the saved Church goes through perpetually.  The tribulation the wicked experience is a judgment from God, Himself, that leaves them unwilling and unable to repent. It is, indeed, His wrath.  The Flood of Noah's Day, the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and much of Revelation is illustrative.     
 
Lastly, and alarmingly there is tribulation, even great tribulation for the professing, yet unsaved church.  What?  But how?  God first allows Satan to bring deceptive heresies into the churches to test them in order to see if they will remain faithful to His Word or not.  This is similar to the way He dealt with the Old Testament congregation. (Deuteronomy, chapter 13, and Judges 3:1 - 6) After a protracted time of warning without repentance God's judgment finally falls.  The destruction of Shiloh, Solomon's temple by the Babylonians along with Herod's Temple by the Romans are ominous proofs of this. (Matthew, chapter 24, and Jeremiah, chapter 7)    
 
When we move to the New Testament Book of Revelation, we find this very thing.  False doctrines had gained a strong foothold in a couple of churches.  The doctrine of Balaam, and the Nicolaitans were taught and practiced by some in the Church of Pergamum. (Revelation 2:14, 15) The penalty for embracing them was for Christ the Savior to fight against that church  with the sword of His mouth. (Revelation 2:16) The angel of the Church of Thyatira had allowed a self-described prophetess, Jezebel to teach and seduce God's servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.  Those who committed adultery with her were all subject to 'great tribulation', extending even to the death of their children if not timely and thoroughly repented of. (Revelation 2:20 - 23) What?  A church of Christ subject to 'great tribulation' brought by Jesus, Himself?  What?!?  A church once having received the peace of God now finding Him to be at all-out war with them?  But were Christ's warnings limited to these two churches? No, they were not.  The Church of Ephesus was forewarned that failing to repent and return to their first love would cause Christ to come quickly and remove their very candlestick out of its place.  (Revelation 2:5) The Church of Sardis risked Christ coming upon them as a thief for their failure to repent and watch. (Revelation 3:3) What?!?  The same Christ Who built his church removes it out of His sight, and the same Christ Who gave His life as a ransom now takes theirs instead!               
 

That is unnerving, even shocking is it not?  But here is the most frightening fact of all.  God, Himself, sends strong delusion to those in deceived churches who do not obey the truth but rather have pleasure in unrighteousness for one sole purpose: that they might all believe the lie of antichrist the beast and be finally and forever damned. (See II Thessalonians 2:10 - 12) I don't know about you but that makes me tremble.  Churches of Asia where are you now?!?   

Friend, it appears the last minutes of tribulation are falling upon us.  Know now that you are not going to escape it.  You will not fly away, beforehand.  Settle this in your heart and mind while there is yet time so that you may bring glory to God rather than heap shame to yourself.  Friend,  prepare yourself for martyrdom.  For those who now believe and are truly saints of God lift up your heads.  Although your tribulation may be harsh and perhaps protracted neither Mystery Babylon the Great, the 8th Beast, nor the False Prophet can take your salvation.  If you are in Christ, you are in God.  Who can pluck you out of the Father's hand? (John 10:28, 29, Luke 10:20, and Hebrews 12:23) Who shall separate you from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation or distress? Shall persecution, or famine, or nakedness or peril, or sword?  No, we are as lambs for the great slaughter. (Romans 8:33 39, Hebrews 10:32-39, 11:36-40) Jesus told us not to fear them who kill the body, but to fear Him Who has the power to destroy both soul and body in hell.   
 
I leave you with the final lines from Martin Luther’s, “A Mighty Fortress is our God.”
Let goods and kindreds go, this mortal life also;  
The body they may kill; God’s truth abideth still, 
His kingdom is forever.
 

To be continued……..Lord willing.  

Inspirational stuff Bro.
Are we still mates?
I'm sorry if I offended you.

Thanks, sir. We are still brothers. I have been doing a lot of thinking and studying on the issue. I will send when i have my thoughts together. Grace and peace to you, sir.