PRE-Millenialism

by **strangelove** Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:02 am

Would everyone agree with this explanation of premillenialism?

The predominant eschatological view among Bible-believing Christians in the twentieth century is premillennialism. Premillennialism is the view that after His second coming, Jesus Christ will rule the earth for 1000 years. Thus Christ’s second coming is before the millennium (premillennial). Premillennialists teach that at the second coming of Christ, the living saints are raptured and the dead saints are raised from the dead. All these saints are given glorified, immortal bodies. They meet Christ in the air and return to rule with Him on earth for 1000 years. This 1000-year period is one of worldwide peace and righteousness. At the end of the 1000-year period Satan is loosed from his prison to deceive the nations. Vast armies rebel and attack Christ and the saints in Jerusalem; these armies are then destroyed by fire from heaven. After the defeat of these rebel armies the final resurrection and judgment take place; then comes the eternal state. This, in brief, is the essence of premillennialism.

(Author - Brian Schwertley)

by **strangelove** Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:01 am

Problem #1

The ressurection and judgement of the living and the dead...of the righteous and the wicked, all occur on the SAME day. the 'last day'.

by Adstar Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:09 pm

Strangelove wrote:Problem #1

The ressurection and judgement of the living and the dead...of the righteous and the wicked, all occur on the SAME day. the 'last day'.

Not according to Revelation 20.

Revelation clearly talks of two resurrections. It cannot be denied.

Also i don't believe anyone on this forum is a believer in the
dispensationalist pre-tribulation kind of pre=millennialism. So there is no
need to bring up those issues in this thread.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by zone Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:23 pm

Adstar wrote:

Not according to Revelation 20.

Revelation clearly talks of two resurrections. It cannot be denied.

Also i don't believe anyone on this forum is a believer in the
dispensationalist pre-tribulation kind of pre=millennialism. So there is no
need to bring up those issues in this thread.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

hi adstar.
i now see in Scripture that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the spirit to the presence of the Lord upon death of the body: if we see that those who have died IN CHRIST are with Him NOW, and actually reigning from Heaven, it clears a lot of confusion up.

everybody gets their resurrection BODY at the Second Advent.

by **strangelove** Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:41 pm

Adstar wrote:
Also i don't believe anyone on this forum is a believer in the
dispensationalist pre-tribulation kind of pre=millennialism. So there is no
need to bring up those issues in this thread.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Agreed. Thats why i didnt bring it up.

I still think we need to sort this out tho.

by Timotheos Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:55 pm

John 5:25-29 NASB
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

John 6:37-40 NASB
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

He will do the resurrecting on the last day. If there were 1000 years after the last day, The last day would not be called the last day. I would probably call it the 365,250th day from the last day.

by zone Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:59 pm

The Millennial kingdom refers to the thousand-year reign of Christ specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6. This is usually seen as the same Messianic Kingdom anticipated by the Old Testament prophets. The major views regarding this millennial kingdom follow:

Dispensational premillennialists propose that Christ's return will precede the millennium but will be in two stages: First, to rapture his saints, leaving all others behind, and then after seven years of tribulation, to publicly institute his visible millennial reign. Dispensationalism also has a uniquely Jewish view of the millennium in which God will literally fulfill his OT promises to ethnic Israel, promises not given to Gentile believers.

Historic premillennialists, following some of the early church fathers, teach that the return of Christ will precede a literal thousand years of peace in which Christ would reign upon earth.

Postmillennialists generally see the millennial kingdom as a "golden age" ushered in by the church through the triumph of the gospel, not only in bringing individuals to salvation, but also in dominating culture. In this view, Christ's return is at the culmination (conclusion) of this millennial age, hence the name post-millennial.

Amillennialists believe that the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is a figurative number indicating the whole period between Jesus' resurrection and his return (i.e. the current church age). In this view Christ now reigns and rules from heaven in and through the church bringing people into the kingdom of God through the preaching of the gospel.

..............................................................

maybe examining the OT prophets' understanding of the "Messianic Kingdom" in more detail would be helpful.

this may also be very revealing in terms of understanding the symbolic nature of numbers as seen in Revelation.

it's interesting to consider that, if much of National Israel rejected Jesus when He entered Jerusalem as King at the First Advent, naturally they would not understand that the King has been reigning for 2,000 years (since Pentecost).

i mean, look how much Christians are divided on the matter!

another example of how twisted things can get: THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION:

this whole thing is based on the GAP theory which separates Daniel's 70th week and drags into the time just before the Second Advent!! (attributing the work of Christ to "Antichrist"!)

70th WEEK GAP THEORY DEBUNKED:

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/daniel.html
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/da70fufu.htm

by zone Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:07 pm

Historic premillennialists, following some of the early church fathers, teach that the return of Christ will precede a literal thousand years of peace in which Christ would reign upon earth.

what do Historic premillennialists see happening during the 1,000 year reign on earth after the Second Advent?

is the only difference that they don't hold to a pretribulation rapture?

by Adstar Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:57 am

zone wrote:Historicpremillennialists,
following some of the early church fathers,
teach that the return of Christ will precede a literal thousand years of peace
in which Christ would reign upon earth.

what do Historic premillennialists
see happening during the
1,000 year reign on earth after the Second Advent?

is the only difference that they don't hold to a pretribulation
rapture?

We also do not hold to the dispensationalist view that goes with dispensationalistpremillennialists.

Jesus will be ruling on earth withhis saints (i believe saints who
have been executed for their witness and saints who are still alive at the
moment of the Messiah's return) One shall govern one city while others will
govern 10 cities as per the parable.

The Amillennialists view just does not stack up against scripture,
firstly if it all happened back in
the times just after Jesus, satan would bebound in the bottomless pit unable
to work his deception. In their figurative1000 years golden age.

But alas satan has been hard a work with his followerson earth for all this time
doing His level best to deceive billions. Amillennialists believe that the saints
and Jesus are ruling up in heaven. what are they ruling? each other?
If the saints are to rule with Jesus they must be ruling others who are Not Saints.
Look at this world now.. Are we not saints? Are we not members of the spiritual
Kingdom Who are we ruling.
If this is what being ruled by Jesus and the saints is all about then it is a very
unimpressive, ineffective kind of rule.

Satan has been out and about doing His dirtiest ever since the day Jesus
was risen from the dead , deceiving many and doing his best to distort the Word
of God. This is even revealed in the times of the apostles in their very
letters. Satan was not bound up and in the bottomless pit then and He sure
ain't there today.

If one believes that the battle ofArmageddon is still future then
one cannot believe one is in the 1000 years.Because the Book of Revelation
reveals that the battle happens before the startof the 1000 years. It happens in
revelation 19 and the 1000 years starts in Revelation 20. There are so many
things that just do not stack up with the

Amillennialists view. To me it was a doctrine created to serve the needs of the
catholic church, to legitimise it's rule with Constantine. And it happened
that because of their power backed by Constantine they where able to
declare Chiliastic teaching (Historic premillennialism ) as heretical.

The Amillennialists view then became the only acceptable doctrine in the
catholic empire and many protestant churches simply adopted it along with
Sunday Sabbath and justifiable war and other hang overs from the catholic
church.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **strangelove** Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:23 am

Regarding Satan being bound.

I think the idea is that there is no NATION on Earth that is deceived by satan. In every country the Gospel is heard. In every country there are Christians. The Gospel is keeping Satan from having total influence over all the nations of the Earth.

The Kingdom of God is thriving IN SPIRIT here on Earth, within the hearts of true believers who are helping to transform the unsaved into the Kingdom.

Does that make sense Ad?

As for the chronological order of Rev, I agree that is a problem for the Amillenial view. But can we read Rev as a set of 'scenes' rather than a continuous story?

Doc.

by zone Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:36 pm

Strangelove wrote:As for the chronological order of Rev, I agree that is a problem for the Amillenial view. But can we read Rev as a set of 'scenes' rather than a continuous story?

Doc.

you got it Doc!
Rev is CIRCULAR!

it's filled, as is all NT with the tension of ALREADY (for we redeemed who have partially partaken of the first resurrection at regeneration [ALREADY have passed from death to life]; upon the death of the body we actually go to Heaven and are united with Christ AND the others who have already died; but we receive our RESURRECTION BODIES AT THE SECOND ADVENT [NOT YET])

this "already/not yet" tension for we who still live on the earth in the Kingdom HERE helps brush saway a lot of cnfusion: those who have died in Christ are ALREADY actually with Him, though they have NOT YET received their glorified bodies.

by Adstar Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:47 am

Strangelove wrote:Regarding Satan being bound.

I think the idea is that there is no NATION on Earth that is deceived by satan. In every country the Gospel is heard. In every country there are Christians. The Gospel is keeping Satan from having total influence over all the nations of the Earth.

Yes satan is restricted by the restrainer but he is here on earth and active. He is not bound up in the bottomless pit totally cut off from the world.

The Kingdom of God is thriving IN SPIRIT here on Earth, within the hearts of true believers who are helping to transform the unsaved into the Kingdom.

Does that make sense Ad?

Well it is always thriving in the hearts of true Believer but most people who believe in God are not true believers. Most denominations and most religions are not true to the Gospel message.

As for the chronological order of Rev, I agree that is a problem for the Amillenial view. But can we read Rev as a set of 'scenes' rather than a continuous story?

Doc.

I agree that the Book of Revelation has parts in
it that are not chronological. The trumpets and bowels for example seem to be
talking about the same happenings from different perspectives. But i can only
see Chapters 19, 20, and 21 as being chronological they read as a continuing
flowing story.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **strangelove** Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:15 am

Adstar wrote:Yes satan is restricted by the restrainer but he is here on earth and active. He is not bound up in the bottomless pit totally cut off from the world.

Yeah its just metaphorical mate. Why, do you see the bottomless pit as literal?

Adstar wrote:Well it is always thriving in the hearts of true Believer but most people who believe in God are not true believers. Most denominations and most religions are not true to the Gospel message.

Absolutely agree. Fact is the Kingdom is thriving in the true believers. Always has. So thats enough to explain the Kingdom. Its not an unimpressive Kingdom. What is unimpressive is a thousand year Kingdom of Christ on Earth which still has evil people running around and a massive rebellion at the end.

Problem #2

I know we've been through this briefly before but, can you please explain how incorruption and corruption can co-exist in this supposed millenium when scripture clearly teaches that is an impossibility.

by zone Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:38 am

Adstar wrote:The Amillennialists view just does not stack up against scripture,
firstly if it all happened back in
the times just after Jesus, satan would bebound in the bottomless pit unable
to work his deception. In their figurative1000 years golden age.

But alas satan has been hard a work with his followerson earth for all this time
doing His level best to deceive billions. Amillennialists believe that the saints
and Jesus are ruling up in heaven. what are they ruling? each other?
If the saints are to rule with Jesus they must be ruling others who are Not Saints.
Look at this world now.. Are we not saints? Are we not members of the spiritual
Kingdom Who are we ruling.
If this is what being ruled by Jesus and the saints is all about then it is a very
unimpressive, ineffective kind of rule.

hi Adstar:

re: the Kingdom as we see it on earth not appearing to be what we would think it should be - didn't the JEWS expect something different from their coming "king" also?

in fact, it's been said that though satan and the bad guys think they are winning when they kill the saints, they ARE LOSING, since the saints are immediately in Heaven reigning with Christ!! this is very much like their murder of Jesus: if the rulers of this age had known that killing the Lord of Glory meant our salvation THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE IT!

let's look at this passage:

Revelation 6

7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

so, at the VERY LEAST we have martyrs in heaven WITH CHRIST, while the bad stuff is going down on earth.

that much is clear, agree?

those ones say “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

so, they are WITH CHRIST and each other, still waiting on the Judgment; they say clearly that there are still people on earth.

and, then they are given robes, and told TO WAIT a little longer "until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

so, the saints in Heaven are anxious for the Lord to repay the injustices, Judgment, and they're told to wait until all the number of appointed martyrs/killed to reach fulfillment - this must mean right up to the last appointed martyr, which would be right up to the very end.

in fact, the very next seal shows the Time arriving:

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave^e and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 alling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

and, let's look at the infamous "pretrib" proof text that describes The Second Coming
- notice the dead (the ones we just saw with Him in Heaven) COME WITH HIM!

1 Thessalonians 4

The Coming of the Lord

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

by zone Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:05 am

hi Adstar

regarding the restraining of evil....see the following on 2 Thessalonians 2

(i agree with Doc that the bottomless pit is metaphorical...the jews didn't use prisons at all: they punished or executed offenders immediately as prescribed by Moses. the only JAIL they had was a CISTERN or PIT where the bad guy was held temporarily).

the more i search the more i see many hebraisms that are used in the Bible - the jews SHOULD make the connections...in fact, the 'golden age', or messianic kingdom is one they should be familiar with, but have made it into an EARTHLY UTOPIA. what we NOW know, is that messianic era began with the first Advent and continues today).

look at Matthew 24, where Jesus states firmly that THE GOSPEL will indeed be preached to all just before he comes. Revelation says God sends bowl judgments AND STILL discusses men and repentence (until the last, when repentence is no longer mentioned).

NOTE: the first of their 3 part question is about 70AD, then the last 2 parts are about the signs leading to the end of the age. in this, and Rev, as well as the Bible overall i am seeing a parallel (and even circular) structure to the prophecies - but this is only possible by looking at the OT from the NT perpspective (i.e: in Mark 13, Matthew 24 & Luke 21 the "signs" (wars/famines) are seen intermittently, though continuously, throughout redemptive history, but as Jesus described, nearer the end they are like BIRTH PANGS - more and more intense, closer and closer together...i see a circular or spiral effect, which leads/convulses the world into a final outcome: THE SECOND ADVENT, The Judgment being the close of this age, AND the "birth" of THE AGE TO COME. (ETERNITY)

Matthew 24
Signs of the Close of the Age

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away^a and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

if you have a wife who has given birth to children, have her describe the phases of pregnancy, and draw a picture of what birth contractions might look like.

also, what happens when the baby is "DUE"? when the wife goes into "LABOR"?

everybody runs around annoucing the imminent BIRTH! that's what we are supposed to be doing lol!

by Adstar Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:34 am

Strangelove wrote:
Yeah its just metaphorical mate. Why, do you see the bottomless pit as
literal?

Why do you see it as metaphorical? I guess we just see things as we see things.

Absolutely agree. Fact is the Kingdom is thriving in the true believers. Always
has. So thats enough to explain the Kingdom. Its not an unimpressive Kingdom.
What is unimpressive is a thousand year Kingdom of Christ on Earth which
still has evil people running around and a massive rebellion at the
end.

Well human people, But satan will not be able to influence them and Jesus will
be ruling them direct. It is only at the end that satan is released for a short
time to go out and deceive the world.

Problem #2

I know we've been through this briefly before but, can you please explain how
incorruption and corruption can co-exist in this supposed millennium when
scripture clearly teaches that is an impossibility.

I do not see where scripture says that? If you have verses i will consider
them.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by Adstar Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:08 am

Hello Zone

The scriptures you gave say it all.

Matthew 24
Signs of the Close of the Age

3
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying,
“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be
the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead
many astray. 6
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for
this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there
will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you
will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10
And then many will fall away^a
and betray one another and hate one another. 11
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12
And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be
proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then
the end will come.

The followers asked Jesus what had to happen before He Returned. And Jesus said
that His message had to be preached to all the world. This had not been
achieved in 70AD, 700AD or 1700AD It is only in these days can it be said that
the Gospel message has been preached to the whole world. So the return of the
Messiah Jesus as depicted in Revelation 19 cannot have happened before these
times. And Revelation 19 is the only scripture that shows the Messiah's Return.
The 1000 year reign that is depicted on Revelation chapter 20 must happen after
the return of Jesus.

The Angels who talked to the Apostles on the day that Jesus ascended into
Heaven with His body said:

Acts1
¹⁰ And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up,
behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, ¹¹ who also said, “Men
of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who
was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw
Him go into heaven.”

Jesus went up in a physical body. And he must return in a Physical body. Yes
the Holy Spirit did come on the day of Pentecost and the Holy Spirit and Jesus
are one. But the Holy Spirit did not come in a body. Jesus must return in a
physical body. and that happens in Revelation 19 after the Gospel message has
been given to all the world and this is before the 1000 years.

Note after the 1000 years there is no mention of the return of Jesus:

Revelation 20
⁷ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released
from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are
in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went
up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the
beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented
day and night forever and ever.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by zone Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:35 am

Adstar wrote:Hello Zone

The scriptures you gave say it all.

Matthew 24
Signs of the Close of the Age

3
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying,
“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be
the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead
many astray. 6
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for
this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there
will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you
will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10
And then many will fall away^a
and betray one another and hate one another. 11
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12
And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be
proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then
the end will come.

The followers asked Jesus what had to happen before He Returned. And Jesus said
that His message had to be preached to all the world. This had not been
achieved in 70AD, 700AD or 1700AD It is only in these days can it be said that
the Gospel message has been preached to the whole world. So the return of the
Messiah Jesus as depicted in Revelation 19 cannot have happened before these
times. And Revelation 19 is the only scripture that shows the Messiah's Return.
The 1000 year reign that is depicted on Revelation chapter 20 must happen after
the return of Jesus.

The Angels who talked to the Apostles on the day that Jesus ascended into
Heaven with His body said:

Acts1
¹⁰ And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up,
behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, ¹¹ who also said, “Men
of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who
was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw
Him go into heaven.”

Jesus went up in a physical body. And he must return in a Physical body. Yes
the Holy Spirit did come on the day of Pentecost and the Holy Spirit and Jesus
are one. But the Holy Spirit did not come in a body. Jesus must return in a
physical body. and that happens in Revelation 19 after the Gospel message has
been given to all the world and this is before the 1000 years.

Note after the 1000 years there is no mention of the return of Jesus:

Revelation 20
⁷ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released
from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are
in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went
up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the
beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented
day and night forever and ever.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

hi adstar.

i guess i should have incuded the first part of that discourse:

Jesus starts off telling them about 70AD

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple

1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Signs of the Close of the Age

3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

"Jesus must return in a
physical body"

yes, He will: for Judgment and to take us Home to New Jerusalem/New heavens/New Earth.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released
from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are
in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog

read the following adstar: Gog and Magog has already covered the earth, and entered the Land in 1948.

satan has been deceiving all of us. i guess he has been released for that short space.

we're headed for big time deception/persecution/new Laws/wars.... THEN JESUS IN FLAMING FIRE AND JUDGMENT DAY, and New Heaven an Earth.

i want to go Home.

zone.

GOG, MAGOG AND THE
KINGDOM OF THE KHAZARS

Part II

THE KHAZAR ORIGIN OF THE ASHKENAZIM

"Judah...hath married the daughter of a strange god. The
Lord will cut off the man that doeth this." Malachi 2:11, 12

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/khazars_2.html

by **strangelove** Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:32 am

Adstar wrote:Why do you see it as metaphorical? I guess we just see things as we see things.

Sorry, you misunderstood. What I meant was DO you see the bottomless pit as literal. I wasn't asking WHY.

Adstar wrote:Well human people, But satan will not be able to influence them and Jesus will
be ruling them direct. It is only at the end that satan is released for a short
time to go out and deceive the world

Ya the apostacy AFTER Jesus comes never made sense to me at all and still doesn't. Do you see any reason for it?

Adstar wrote:I do not see where scripture says that? If you have verses i will consider
them.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

How can corruptable people be living in the age to come?

by Adstar Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:56 am

zone wrote:

hi Adstar:

re: the Kingdom as we see it on earth not appearing to be what we would think it should be - didn't the JEWS expect something different from their coming "king" also?

Well the jews had a little knowledge But they where blinded to the full revelation because their hearts where not right with God. There was nothing wrong with their view of a physical kingdom on earth where they fell down is not understanding that their Messiah was going to suffer death. this is written in the prophecy of the Messiah in Isaiah 53,

Isaiah 53
⁸ He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
⁹ And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
¹⁰ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
¹¹ He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
¹² Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

They got the portion with the great part and the spoil with the strong part but they completely missed the point about the Messiah being cut off from the land of the living.

in fact, it's been said that though satan and the bad guys think they are winning when they kill the saints, they ARE LOSING, since the saints are immediately in Heaven reigning with Christ!! this is very much like their murder of Jesus: if the rulers of this age had known that killing the Lord of Glory meant our salvation THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE IT!

let's look at this passage:

Yes i agree.

Revelation 6

7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

so, at the VERY LEAST we have martyrs in heaven WITH CHRIST, while the bad stuff is going down on earth.

that much is clear, agree?

Yes but they are only the Martyers who have died for Jesus.

those ones say “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

so, they are WITH CHRIST and each other, still waiting on the Judgment; they say clearly that there are still people on earth.

and, then they are given robes, and told TO WAIT a little longer "until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

so, the saints in Heaven are anxious for the Lord to repay the injustices, Judgment, and they're told to wait until all the number of appointed martyrs/killed to reach fulfillment - this must mean right up to the last appointed martyr, which would be right up to the very end.

Correct.

in fact, the very next seal shows the Time arriving:

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave^e and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 alling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Yes but this judgement is only upon the genration that lives during the time of the Messiah's return. This is a judgement. But it is not the final judgement.

and, let's look at the infamous "pretrib" proof text that describes The Second Coming
- notice the dead (the ones we just saw with Him in Heaven) COME WITH HIM!

1 Thessalonians 4

The Coming of the Lord

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I don't see it as a "pretrib"proof text. But it is a Rapture text. And will happen at His second comming.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by Adstar Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:07 am

Strangelove wrote:
Sorry, you misunderstood. What I meant was DO you see
the bottomless pit as literal. I wasn't asking WHY.

Well i do not know if there is an actual pit but it does not matter to me if it
is physical or some other kind of holding area. What i do believe at the moment
is he will be in it constrained for 1000 years.

Ya the apostacy AFTER Jesus comes never made sense to me at all and still
doesn't. Do you see any reason for it?

Well as i read it. the deceiver will come back after 1000 years to go out and deceive
the nations/ But satan will not be deceiving the saints on earth. God will give
the nations over to deception to bring about the final judgement. I have no
doubt that by this time the nations will be rebellious in spirit against Jesus.
Eagar to See Him and His saints deposed.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption
inherit incorruption.

How can corruptable people be living in the age to come?

Oh i get you. Well only the saints will be in the true Kingdom of Jesus.
And they will be in their physical immortal incorruptible bodies. The nations
will not be in the Kingdom, but will be dominated by the Kingdom. As in
they will be ruled by the Kingdom without being full citizens of it.

Of course in the end at the final judgement there will be no corruptible human
flesh people. All people who exist will be part of the kingdom.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **strangelove** Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:46 am

Adstar wrote:There was nothing wrong with their view of a physical kingdom on earth

Is the Kingdom of God a physical or a spiritual Kingdom?

Adstar wrote:Yes but they are only the Martyers who have died for Jesus.

Isn't anyone who dies in Christ a martyr?

Adstar wrote:Yes but this judgement is only upon the genration that lives during the time of the Messiah's return. This is a judgement. But it is not the final judgement.

Where is the scriptural support for 2 seperate judgements?

Adstar wrote:Well i do not know if there is an actual pit but it does not matter to me if it
is physical or some other kind of holding area. What i do believe at the moment
is he will be in it constrained for 1000 years.

Well, if you are not bothered about it being metaphorical or literal then its perfectly reasonable to be flexible with how and to what extent Satan is bound. What do you think about the parable of the strongman?

Adstar wrote:Well as i read it. the deceiver will come back after 1000 years to go out and deceive
the nations/ But satan will not be deceiving the saints on earth. God will give
the nations over to deception to bring about the final judgement. I have no
doubt that by this time the nations will be rebellious in spirit against Jesus.
Eagar to See Him and His saints deposed.

But WHY? It doesnt make any sense. Can Jesus not run a fair and just Kingdom on Earth? Even God can't rule properly that people want to rebel? None of this is described in scripture. Your getting the whole thing from a preconceived pre-mil. reading of Rev 20. I mean, it doesnt really matter or anything as long as you are prepared for this Earthly Kingdom to be HOAXED! With all te technology and sorcery and drugs at mans disposal are you SURE your gonna know if you've been glorified?

Adstar wrote:Oh i get you. Well only the saints will be in the true Kingdom of Jesus.
And they will be in their physical immortal incorruptible bodies. The nations
will not be in the Kingdom, but will be dominated by the Kingdom. As in
they will be ruled by the Kingdom without being full citizens of it.

Of course in the end at the final judgement there will be no corruptible human
flesh people. All people who exist will be part of the kingdom.

Again, none of this comes from scripture. There are 2 ages taught in scripture. This age, and the age to come. In this age there will be temporal things, families, marriage, sex, birth etc...in the age to come there will NOT be these things. There will only be the eternal.

by zone Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:00 am

Adstar wrote:.
[/i]Oh i get you. Well only the saints will be in the true Kingdom of Jesus.
And they will be in their physical immortal incorruptible bodies. The nations
will not be in the Kingdom, but will be dominated by the Kingdom. As in
they will be ruled by the Kingdom without being full citizens of it.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

adstar, your articulation of how the redeemed saints can be ruling over the flesh men on earth WORKS with the AMill model of that taking place NOW, but from Heaven (with the caveat that no one except Jesus has their resurrection glorified bodies yet).

the dead saints with Jesus in Heaven, the unredeemed here on earth, alongside the redeemed who HAVE eternal life (already) but are still alive on earth and so not reigning from Heaven (NOT YET)...there's that AMill tension of ALREADY/NOT YET.

the only sticking point is the number 1,000 - this is a symbolic number which describes the MESSIANIC KINGDOM (GOLDEN AGE)....it's a symbolic number.

by Adstar Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:50 am

Doc said:

I mean, it doesnt really matter or anything as long as you are
prepared for this Earthly Kingdom to be HOAXED! With all the technology and
sorcery and drugs at mans disposal are you SURE your gonna know if you've been
glorified?

Adstar replied:
I know this Physical kingdom will be Hoaxed. By the son of perdition. I have
spent a long time seeking wisdom as to what the signs of this hoax will be. I
believe Jesus and i believe He will guard me against deception. When the true
Messiah comes it will be as clear as day, there will be no room for disbelief
or disagreement. I see the deceptions being set up. And i know they will not
need to be very effective in their deception to fool most of the world, because
most of the world does not believe in Jesus and they do not read His Word

amen!

(but the deception will be so severe, Jesus said if he did not keep the elect from falling [being deceived], they would be deceived also.)

not only do we have deception, we have this terrifying addition to it all, coming directly from God Himself (ensuring the absolute damnation/reprobate condition) of those who did not receive the love of The Truth:

2 Thessalonians 2
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

by Adstar Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:59 am

NOTE: AS A MOD I HAVE THE ABILITY TO EDIT POSTS....i use it to edit mine regularly.
I CLICKED ON ADSTAR'S POST AND EDITED IT BY MISTAKE WHEN I WAS SIMPLY TRYING TO REPLY.

I CLICKED EDIT INSTEAD OF REPLY....again, i'm very sorry.

ADSTAR'S TEXT IS IN BLUE.

SORRY ADSTAR. DOC MIGHT SEND ME TO THE CORNER OVER IT.

Zone wrote:
adstar, your articulation of how the redeemed saints can be ruling over the
flesh men on earth WORKS with the AMill model of that taking place NOW, but
from Heaven (with the caveat that no one except Jesus has their resurrection
glorified bodies yet).

Adstar replied:
Where is the signs of their rulership over the people of this world? The people
of this world are clearly not be ruled by the saints. If they where then the
corruption and strife and problems we now see would not be happening.

Zone:
God is in absolute control: as usual, using the wickness of men to do the punishing, and working ALL things for our good and His Glory.

everything that is happening that's BAD is being allowed, and even directed (though God is not the author of evil) to judge men's wicked hearts and condemn men's institutions.

what we see happening now (rebellion and war) is what you claim happens AFTER THE GLORIFIED CHRIST HAS RETURNED VISIBLY!

so you can't have it both ways

Zone had written:
the only sticking point is the number 1,000 - this is a symbolic number
which describes the MESSIANIC KINGDOM (GOLDEN AGE)....it's a symbolic number.

Adstar wrote:
And if this age is the golden age what is golden about it? There is nothing
golden about it. It is an age similar to the ages before Jesus. Filled with fallible
rulers lording it over the masses with their corrupt governments. Of false
religions running around putting billion of people into bondage

Zone replied:
for the saints seated with Christ in Heaven is not truly a Golden Age?

and for we here on earth who look to His Coming and our reunion with the saints, maybe we could call this a Silver Age! LOL. surely it would be brass and lead and darkness without our great Hope.

the last paragraph was lost, since when i thought i was merely replying, i left it off....your text is in BLUE.

this reply of mine will show up under your name, ADSTAR.

GULP. SORRY. please forgive me.

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:45 am

Adstar wrote:Currently it is a Spiritual one. One that is building in numbers. More slowly
then i would want but it is expanding. But this does not mean it will never
have a physical form.

Will the physical Kingdom be when Jesus reigns on Earth in the 'millenium' or when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven?

Adstar wrote:Being a martyr means being killed for ones belief in Jesus. Not everyone who
believes Jesus faces being killed for it. Many who have believed Jesus have
died normal deaths.

Ok but scripture says true believers will suffer persecution and will be delivered up and have tribulation.

Adstar wrote:Just to make it clearer. I may not have stated it as clearly as i should.

When God delivered judgement to sodom it was not the final judgement. But still
it was a judgement. So when i say there will be a judgement upon the world upon
the return of the Messiah Jesus i am not talking about a resurrection of the
dead and a final Judgement kind of judgement. I am talking about the wrath poured
out as shown in the book of Revelation.

There is only one final judgement where all who have ever existed will be
judged at one time.

Right. There is ONE judgement. And when does that take place?

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

So the harvest is the end of the world. When Jesus comes WITH His angels who are the reapers.

And when does the ressurection take place?

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Judgement day is the Day of the Lord. At the time of His return. The last day. That is what scripture teaches. All will be raised and judged when Jesus comes. There is simply no 1000 year gap and absolutley no scriptural support for any kind of Earthly Kingdom.

Adstar wrote:Because the bible gives an exact time. If God simply wanted to show that a long
time would pass then He would have inspired John to right that down.

He did write it down. In a book where all numbers are symbolic (and when we have previously been taught that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years), 1000 years symbolically means a very long time.

Got work to do Ad. I'll cover the rest of your post a bit later.

by zone Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:52 am

Doc asked:
Isn't anyone who dies in Christ a martyr?

Adstar answered:
Being a martyr means being killed for ones belief in Jesus. Not everyone who
believes Jesus faces being killed for it. Many who have believed Jesus have
died normal deaths

hi adstar.
i'm so glad you're here. i really enjoy your intelligent and in-depth posts.
(even though i deleted some of the above one.... Embarassed

)

re the saints being killed:
are things like cancer and diabetes and immune disorders and alzheimers and viruses normal deaths?

what about the soft-kills methods like vaccinations?

what about the diseases we are seeing as a result of genetically modified foods?

and death in needless wars fought for money? things like radiation death and staged terror attacks?

what about the planned famines in the soviet union, and china?

most of the things that are killing people today are man-made (allowed by God). and the dominant minority (this this their name for themselves), the "elite" are eugenicists who plan to exterminate 90% of the people on earth.

Jesus said this to the Pharisees, BECAUSE KILLING TO GET WHAT THEY WANT IS WRITTEN IN THEIR PLAYBOOK, THE TALMUD AND ACCOMPANYING TEXTS (total genocide):

Matthew 23:35
so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

and what is John told in Revelation about earthly Jerusalem and her abominable religion?

Revelation 18:2
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

by zone Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:36 am

K.
Doc took away my edit button for anyone other than myself....
your posts are SAFE from my blundering.

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