The One True God
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God and Jesus - Seperate people
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Romans 15:6,“that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 1:3,“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort”.
2 Corinthians 11:31, “The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever [cp.Rom.9], knows that I am not lying.”
Ephesians 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places”.
1 Peter 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused usto be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”.
1 Thessalonians 1:3, “remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ”.
1 Thessalonians 3:11, “Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you”.
1 Thessalonians 3:13, “so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”
Romans 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 7:55 and 56 (55) But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. (56) “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Romans 15:6,“that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 1:3,“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort”.
2 Corinthians 11:31, “The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever [cp.Rom.9], knows that I am not lying.”
Ephesians 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places”.
1 Peter 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused usto be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”.
1 Thessalonians 1:3, “remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ”.
1 Thessalonians 3:11, “Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you”.
1 Thessalonians 3:13, “so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”
Romans 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 7:55 and 56 (55) But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. (56) “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Last edited by strangelove on Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Philippians 2:5-6 - who, being God....
Philippians 2:5-6 (KJV) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Many translations leave out the "form of God" and make it read "who, being God"
Now you need to ask yourself, why would they do that? The Greek word is morphe (form) and its clearly there in the text.
It's the same idea as image of God. An image cannot, by definition, be the original.
Morphe means outward appearance. Look at the below...
Mark 16:12 (KJV) After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Here Jesus appears in "another form" [morphe] to the two travellers. No trinitarian would assert Jesus changed his essential nature. He changed his outward appearance so they wouldn't recognizer him.
Morphe is also used several times in the Septuagint where it clearly means outward appearance. (Job 4:15-16, Isa 44:13, Dan 3:19)
Also note the compound words in the NT made from morphe that clearly refer to outward appearance or countenance. Morphosis (2 Tim 3:5), metamorphoomai (Matt 17:2, Mark 9:2, 2 Cor 3:18)
μορφῇ
morphē
Strong's Concordance
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Definition: form, shape
Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3444: μορφή
μορφή, μορφῆς, ἡ (from root signifying 'to lay hold of', 'seize' (cf. German Fassung); Fick, Part i., p. 174; Vanicek, p. 719), from Homer down, the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: children are said to reflect ψυχῆς τέ καί μορφῆς ὁμοιότητα (of their parents),
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Many translations leave out the "form of God" and make it read "who, being God"
Now you need to ask yourself, why would they do that? The Greek word is morphe (form) and its clearly there in the text.
It's the same idea as image of God. An image cannot, by definition, be the original.
Morphe means outward appearance. Look at the below...
Mark 16:12 (KJV) After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Here Jesus appears in "another form" [morphe] to the two travellers. No trinitarian would assert Jesus changed his essential nature. He changed his outward appearance so they wouldn't recognizer him.
Morphe is also used several times in the Septuagint where it clearly means outward appearance. (Job 4:15-16, Isa 44:13, Dan 3:19)
Also note the compound words in the NT made from morphe that clearly refer to outward appearance or countenance. Morphosis (2 Tim 3:5), metamorphoomai (Matt 17:2, Mark 9:2, 2 Cor 3:18)
μορφῇ
morphē
Strong's Concordance
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Definition: form, shape
Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3444: μορφή
μορφή, μορφῆς, ἡ (from root signifying 'to lay hold of', 'seize' (cf. German Fassung); Fick, Part i., p. 174; Vanicek, p. 719), from Homer down, the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: children are said to reflect ψυχῆς τέ καί μορφῆς ὁμοιότητα (of their parents),
Last edited by strangelove on Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
1 John 5:20 - This is he true God
1 John 5:20 (KJV) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
In this verse, Jesus is identified as the son of God who reveals "him that is true".
So there is quite obviously two persons in this verse, Jesus and God. No one would argue with that.
Now, given that Jesus says quite explicitly that the Father is the only true God (John 17.3) Then there is no reason to think that "This is he true God" in this verse is not the same person, the Father.
If it wasn't the Father, then it would violate Jesus unitary monotheistic creed and be a total contradiction.
In this verse, Jesus is identified as the son of God who reveals "him that is true".
So there is quite obviously two persons in this verse, Jesus and God. No one would argue with that.
Now, given that Jesus says quite explicitly that the Father is the only true God (John 17.3) Then there is no reason to think that "This is he true God" in this verse is not the same person, the Father.
If it wasn't the Father, then it would violate Jesus unitary monotheistic creed and be a total contradiction.
Last edited by strangelove on Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
John 21:17 - you know all things
John 21:17 (KJV) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Trinitarians will sometimes use this verse to show Jesus was omniscient, and therefore God almighty.
However, we know from other verses that Jesus was not all knowing in an omniscient sense.
Luke 8:45-46 (KJV) And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
John 11:34 (KJV) And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Hebrews 5:8 (KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Matthew 24:36 (KJV) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
So how do we resolve John 21:17? Well, the theme of the verse is knowing people's thoughts, what they are feeling. We know Jesus had a gift for this.
Matthew 9:4 (KJV) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
So that's the context of this verse. Simon is using hyperbole to describe Jesus ability to know the hearts of men.
And let us not forget that it was the Father working in him. And the fathers words coming from his mouth.
John 14:10 (KJV) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Trinitarians will sometimes use this verse to show Jesus was omniscient, and therefore God almighty.
However, we know from other verses that Jesus was not all knowing in an omniscient sense.
Luke 8:45-46 (KJV) And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
John 11:34 (KJV) And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Hebrews 5:8 (KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Matthew 24:36 (KJV) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
So how do we resolve John 21:17? Well, the theme of the verse is knowing people's thoughts, what they are feeling. We know Jesus had a gift for this.
Matthew 9:4 (KJV) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
So that's the context of this verse. Simon is using hyperbole to describe Jesus ability to know the hearts of men.
And let us not forget that it was the Father working in him. And the fathers words coming from his mouth.
John 14:10 (KJV) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1 Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
A better reading would be "great is the mystery of godliness which was manifest in the flesh"
The KJV rendering is the result of corrupted copy of later manuscripts in that verse. Quite well known to scholars, "beyond controversy" apparently. This is why it appears in much later Greek texts.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
God was manifest in the flesh.—Here, in the most ancient authorities, the word “God” does not occur. We must, then, literally translate the Greek of the most famous and trustworthy MSS. as follows: He who was manifested in the flesh. In the later MSS., and in the great majority of the fathers who cite the passage, we certainly find Theos (“God”), as in the Received text. The substitution can be traced to no special doctrinal prejudice, but is owing, probably, to a well-meant correction of early scribes. At first sight, Theos (“God”) would be a reading easier to understand, and grammatically more exact; and in the original copies, the great similitude between ΘC (“God”)—the contracted form in which ΘEOC was written—and the relative ΘC (“He who”), would be likely to suggest to an officious scribe the very trifling alteration necessary for the easier and apparently more accurate word. Recent investigations have shown, however, beyond controversy that the oldest MSS., with scarcely an exception, contain the more difficult reading, ΘC (“He who”).
A better reading would be "great is the mystery of godliness which was manifest in the flesh"
The KJV rendering is the result of corrupted copy of later manuscripts in that verse. Quite well known to scholars, "beyond controversy" apparently. This is why it appears in much later Greek texts.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
God was manifest in the flesh.—Here, in the most ancient authorities, the word “God” does not occur. We must, then, literally translate the Greek of the most famous and trustworthy MSS. as follows: He who was manifested in the flesh. In the later MSS., and in the great majority of the fathers who cite the passage, we certainly find Theos (“God”), as in the Received text. The substitution can be traced to no special doctrinal prejudice, but is owing, probably, to a well-meant correction of early scribes. At first sight, Theos (“God”) would be a reading easier to understand, and grammatically more exact; and in the original copies, the great similitude between ΘC (“God”)—the contracted form in which ΘEOC was written—and the relative ΘC (“He who”), would be likely to suggest to an officious scribe the very trifling alteration necessary for the easier and apparently more accurate word. Recent investigations have shown, however, beyond controversy that the oldest MSS., with scarcely an exception, contain the more difficult reading, ΘC (“He who”).
Last edited by strangelove on Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Resources
Books:
When Jesus became God - Richard Rubenstein
Misquoting Jesus - Bart Ehrman
The Doctrine of the Trinity - Anthony Buzzard
Divine Truth or Human Tradition- Patrick Navas
Michael Servetus- M Hiller & Clare Allen
Out of the flames - Lawrence Goldstone
Websites:
Biblicalunitarian.com
Servetus.org
Restorationfellowship.org
4onegod.net
Godward.org
Thehumanjesus.org
When Jesus became God - Richard Rubenstein
Misquoting Jesus - Bart Ehrman
The Doctrine of the Trinity - Anthony Buzzard
Divine Truth or Human Tradition- Patrick Navas
Michael Servetus- M Hiller & Clare Allen
Out of the flames - Lawrence Goldstone
Websites:
Biblicalunitarian.com
Servetus.org
Restorationfellowship.org
4onegod.net
Godward.org
Thehumanjesus.org
John 2:19 n three days I will raise it up
John 2:19 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 10:17-18 (KJV) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
John 10:17-18 (KJV) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Hebrews 1:10-12 the work of your hands
Hebrews 1:10-12 is a quotation from Psalm 102:25-27 where the Psalmist is talking to Yahweh God, about Yahweh God. It is in no way the Father speaking to the son like you claim. God alone was the creator in the beginning. We know this from many verses.
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Psalms 33:6 (KJV) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psalms 148:5 (KJV) Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Isaiah 45:12 (KJV) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Also, please compare with the below.
Hebrews 2:7 (KJV) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
That's talking about how the Father created Jesus as a man and then highly exalted him over.... the works of the father's hands.
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Psalms 33:6 (KJV) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psalms 148:5 (KJV) Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Isaiah 45:12 (KJV) I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Also, please compare with the below.
Hebrews 2:7 (KJV) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
That's talking about how the Father created Jesus as a man and then highly exalted him over.... the works of the father's hands.
Zechariah 12:10 me whom they have pierced
Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
First thing to say is this verse makes no sense as translated above. In the first person it says "look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM".
Why would this be Jesus saying they pierced ME, and then say they will mourn for HIM? Who is the HIM in that case? It's incoherent.
That's why many translations go for the below which is allowed by the hebrew grammar.
New American Bible
"so that when they look on HIM whom they have thrust through, they will mourn for HIM"
New Revised Standard Version
"so that, when they look on THE ONE WHOM they have pierced, they shall mourn for HIM"
JPS Tanakh 1917
"And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him,"
(This one above is my personal preferred translation)
Good News Translation
"They will look at the ONE WHOM they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for HIM"
Contemporary English Version
"when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him"
Secondly, we are specifically told that God spoke through the prophets in the old days.... NOT the son. The son speaks only in these "last days".
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...
Thirdly, every Bible Translation out there has John quoting the Zechariah verse as below with "HIM whom they have pierced" or something very similar. This is confirmation that the unpopular translation of Zech 12:10 is the correct one.
John 19:37 (KJV) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on HIM whom they pierced.
So in Zechariah 12:10 it is most certainly not Jesus talking, it is Yahweh. For conclusive proof, see where the speaker goes on to talk about "my shepherd" in the same passage. Jesus doesn't have a shepherd, he is the shepherd. God's shepherd.
First thing to say is this verse makes no sense as translated above. In the first person it says "look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM".
Why would this be Jesus saying they pierced ME, and then say they will mourn for HIM? Who is the HIM in that case? It's incoherent.
That's why many translations go for the below which is allowed by the hebrew grammar.
New American Bible
"so that when they look on HIM whom they have thrust through, they will mourn for HIM"
New Revised Standard Version
"so that, when they look on THE ONE WHOM they have pierced, they shall mourn for HIM"
JPS Tanakh 1917
"And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him,"
(This one above is my personal preferred translation)
Good News Translation
"They will look at the ONE WHOM they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for HIM"
Contemporary English Version
"when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him"
Secondly, we are specifically told that God spoke through the prophets in the old days.... NOT the son. The son speaks only in these "last days".
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...
Thirdly, every Bible Translation out there has John quoting the Zechariah verse as below with "HIM whom they have pierced" or something very similar. This is confirmation that the unpopular translation of Zech 12:10 is the correct one.
John 19:37 (KJV) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on HIM whom they pierced.
So in Zechariah 12:10 it is most certainly not Jesus talking, it is Yahweh. For conclusive proof, see where the speaker goes on to talk about "my shepherd" in the same passage. Jesus doesn't have a shepherd, he is the shepherd. God's shepherd.
Zechariah 2:9-1 - Yahweh sent me
Zechariah 2:9-11 (KJV) For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
The problem with the trinitarian view of these verses is selective placement of speech marks to try and make it look like Yahweh [God the Father] is sending Yahweh [God the son].
Yahweh doesn't send Yahweh, because Yahweh is the personal name of one person.
The surrounding context makes it clear there is an angel speaking. Let's look at the NET version of verse 9 and how they place the speech marks.
NET Bible
"I am about to punish them in such a way," he says, "that they will be looted by their own slaves." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me.
You can see that it is Yahweh speaking in the speech marks and somebody else speaking outside the marks, the angel who was sent by Yahweh. The angel of the Lord.
And again in verse 11. Same format. God in speech marks. Angel outside.
NET Bible
"Many nations will join themselves to the LORD on the day of salvation, and they will also be my people. Indeed, I will settle in the midst of you all." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me to you.
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
The problem with the trinitarian view of these verses is selective placement of speech marks to try and make it look like Yahweh [God the Father] is sending Yahweh [God the son].
Yahweh doesn't send Yahweh, because Yahweh is the personal name of one person.
The surrounding context makes it clear there is an angel speaking. Let's look at the NET version of verse 9 and how they place the speech marks.
NET Bible
"I am about to punish them in such a way," he says, "that they will be looted by their own slaves." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me.
You can see that it is Yahweh speaking in the speech marks and somebody else speaking outside the marks, the angel who was sent by Yahweh. The angel of the Lord.
And again in verse 11. Same format. God in speech marks. Angel outside.
NET Bible
"Many nations will join themselves to the LORD on the day of salvation, and they will also be my people. Indeed, I will settle in the midst of you all." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me to you.
Revelation 1:17-18 (KJV) First and last
Revelation 1:17-18 (KJV) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
The speaker above is most certainly Jesus, as he was dead. It can't be God because he is inherently immortal and cannot die.
In Isaiah 44:6, that is God the Father speaking, who's name is Yahweh.
Yahweh is always just God the Father. He's the only true God.
The trinitarian claim is that both the Lord Jesus and God almighty Yahweh share titles.... therefore Jesus is Yahweh.
Alpha and omega.
Beginning and end.
First and last.
There is an explanation for these shared titles without violating the unitary monotheistic faith of Jesus and the apostles.
God the Father is the beginning and end of physical creation. He spoke the earth into existence and stretched forth the heavens alone. The title first and last connected with the flavour of physical creation can be garnered from verses such as...
Isaiah 48:12-13
Isaiah 41:4
Also in Isaiah 44:6 he has the same title first and last, and later in verse 24 he emphasises his sole role in creation again.
Jesus is the first and last, alpha and omega of the NEW creation. He's the firstborn of all creation, the beginning, firstborn out of the dead (Col 1:18)
Rev 3:14 says he's the beginning of the creation of God.... that's the new creation in Christ.
Jesus is also the end, because he has been ordained by God to judge the world on the last day, after which he will hand back the kingdom to the Father.
Acts 17:31 (KJV) Because he [GOD] hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
There seems to be some difficulty in the trinitarian claim.
If you are going to say that the shared titles means Jesus is the speaker in Isa 44:6, then who is that speaker in Isaiah exactly. Who is that Yahweh? If its the triune God then Jesus is not the triune God in the doctrine.
If its God the Father speaking in Isaiah, then Jesus is not the Father in the doctrine of the Trinity. So that makes no sense either.
And I don't think any trinitarian would say its just Jesus talking in Isaiah, as that speaker keeps talking about creating everything on his own, but the doctrine claims that God the Father created everything, through Jesus at the beginning. So that violates trinity doctrine too.
And if Jesus in Rev 1:17-18 is the same as the person (or thing?) speaking in Isaiah.... then can that speaker in Isaiah ever be dead as is stated in the Rev verse?
Who is that speaker in Isaiah 44:6 exactly? It seems the contradictions are insurmountable within trinity doctrine.
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
The speaker above is most certainly Jesus, as he was dead. It can't be God because he is inherently immortal and cannot die.
In Isaiah 44:6, that is God the Father speaking, who's name is Yahweh.
Yahweh is always just God the Father. He's the only true God.
The trinitarian claim is that both the Lord Jesus and God almighty Yahweh share titles.... therefore Jesus is Yahweh.
Alpha and omega.
Beginning and end.
First and last.
There is an explanation for these shared titles without violating the unitary monotheistic faith of Jesus and the apostles.
God the Father is the beginning and end of physical creation. He spoke the earth into existence and stretched forth the heavens alone. The title first and last connected with the flavour of physical creation can be garnered from verses such as...
Isaiah 48:12-13
Isaiah 41:4
Also in Isaiah 44:6 he has the same title first and last, and later in verse 24 he emphasises his sole role in creation again.
Jesus is the first and last, alpha and omega of the NEW creation. He's the firstborn of all creation, the beginning, firstborn out of the dead (Col 1:18)
Rev 3:14 says he's the beginning of the creation of God.... that's the new creation in Christ.
Jesus is also the end, because he has been ordained by God to judge the world on the last day, after which he will hand back the kingdom to the Father.
Acts 17:31 (KJV) Because he [GOD] hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
There seems to be some difficulty in the trinitarian claim.
If you are going to say that the shared titles means Jesus is the speaker in Isa 44:6, then who is that speaker in Isaiah exactly. Who is that Yahweh? If its the triune God then Jesus is not the triune God in the doctrine.
If its God the Father speaking in Isaiah, then Jesus is not the Father in the doctrine of the Trinity. So that makes no sense either.
And I don't think any trinitarian would say its just Jesus talking in Isaiah, as that speaker keeps talking about creating everything on his own, but the doctrine claims that God the Father created everything, through Jesus at the beginning. So that violates trinity doctrine too.
And if Jesus in Rev 1:17-18 is the same as the person (or thing?) speaking in Isaiah.... then can that speaker in Isaiah ever be dead as is stated in the Rev verse?
Who is that speaker in Isaiah 44:6 exactly? It seems the contradictions are insurmountable within trinity doctrine.
John 10:33 - makest yourself God
John 10:33 (KJV) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
There are translation issues here similar to John 1:1.
The Jews would never think Jesus was claiming to be the one God of Israel because that's too absurd, and Jesus never did claim that. What he did claim when he said he was God's Christ and son, is that he held divine authority... and this is what the pharisees were alluding to, that he claimed a "divine" status.
The verse would be better translated...
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself a "god".
The judges were called "gods". Why? Because they had divine authority. Its a hebrew idiom.
The Greek reads theos without the definite article "the". This is more of an adjective "godlike" or "divine". Let's read on...
John 10:34-35 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Here the word theoi (plural) is correctly translated gods with a small g.
In the part "word of God" however, we do have the definite article τοῦ (the) and thus, its correctly given the capital G for God almighty.
And let's not forget Jesus denying emphatically that he is God in the next verse...
John 10:36 (KJV) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Again, God has the definite article "the" God.
Other examples of "god" without the definite article...
Used of Herod
Acts 12:22 (KJV) And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Used of Paul
Acts 28:6 (KJV) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
There are translation issues here similar to John 1:1.
The Jews would never think Jesus was claiming to be the one God of Israel because that's too absurd, and Jesus never did claim that. What he did claim when he said he was God's Christ and son, is that he held divine authority... and this is what the pharisees were alluding to, that he claimed a "divine" status.
The verse would be better translated...
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself a "god".
The judges were called "gods". Why? Because they had divine authority. Its a hebrew idiom.
The Greek reads theos without the definite article "the". This is more of an adjective "godlike" or "divine". Let's read on...
John 10:34-35 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Here the word theoi (plural) is correctly translated gods with a small g.
In the part "word of God" however, we do have the definite article τοῦ (the) and thus, its correctly given the capital G for God almighty.
And let's not forget Jesus denying emphatically that he is God in the next verse...
John 10:36 (KJV) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Again, God has the definite article "the" God.
Other examples of "god" without the definite article...
Used of Herod
Acts 12:22 (KJV) And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Used of Paul
Acts 28:6 (KJV) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
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» The Scriptural Story of The TRUE Israel of God
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