continuationist or cessationist?

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:19 pm

hi wilderness people.

if you're interested, let's take another look at this issue. bounce

zone < cessationist Wink

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:57 pm

Well... I really despise the widespread perversion and rampant Kundalini, but I'm a simple Continuationist because of exegesis of 1Cor. 13. I can't do Cessation because the Greek text doesn't support it.

The "office" issue is a bit of a separate but related issue, IMHO. We can discuss it a bit if you want.

(I've never gotten back to the Original Sin topic, either; but I haven't forgotten.)

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:05 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Well... I really despise the widespread perversion and rampant Kundalini, but I'm a simple Continuationist because of exegesis of 1Cor. 13. I can't do Cessation because the Greek text doesn't support it.

The "office" issue is a bit of a separate but related issue, IMHO. We can discuss it a bit if you want.

(I've never gotten back to the Original Sin topic, either; but I haven't forgotten.)

heya bud.
welp, i disagree of course.

but, are you a simple continuationist based soley on the exegesis, or are you a practising charismatic/pentecostal? < i'm unloading the term as i usually use it for our discussion. lol.

cuz i think you're TOTALLY right to separate the experience from the exegesis. refreshing if we can do that. adapting what rick said in the helio/geo thread; both exegesis and experience can be considered but clearly what's written has to trump our experience....or...does it?

love z

so would you click "other" in a poll like this or "continuationist"?

re: original sin....no biggie. we can do that another time or whenever.

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:20 pm

i reckon one general question to put to the forum is whether or not God is revealing new information today.

in other words, for example: are prophets needed now that we have the written Good News of the New Covenant?

should i trust anyone who claims to be a prophet? cuz we either have them today or we don't right?

by **strangelove** Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:53 pm

zone wrote:i reckon one general question to put to the forum is whether or not God is revealing new information today.

in other words, for example: are prophets needed now that we have the written Good News of the New Covenant?

should i trust anyone who claims to be a prophet? cuz we either have them today or we don't right?

No more prophets [foretelling]. They have done their job. They told us of who was to come. He came and finished the job. Fulfilled it all, and brought salvation. Now we enter into that rest. We relax. His yoke is easy. We dont have any work to do. We have no one to listen to, but the echo of His Word.

Matthew 11:13-30 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. (14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. (15) He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. (16) But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, (17) And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. (18) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. (19) The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (20) Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: (21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. (27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

1 Peter 1:10-13 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. (13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

We have all we need for our faith. All I know is Christ and Him crucified. I need no more signs or wonders.

Doc >>> cessationist.

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:03 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Matthew 11:13-30 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:04 pm

zone wrote:heya bud.
welp, i disagree of course.

but, are you a simple continuationist based soley on the exegesis, or are you a practising charismatic/pentecostal? < i'm unloading the term as i usually use it for our discussion. lol.

I've had a bit more convoluted journey to arrive at my understanding than many others, I suppose; and much of it was centered on Godhead doctrine. As a Southern Baptist indoctrinate, I was an avid cessationist for all the same reasons I held every other view. I had been taught and told it was true.

The truth of the Gospel and of who Jesus is came to me through an old-time holiness ministry. A part of that experience included observing gifts and miracles through the most godly men I've ever encountered. That credibility led me back to the text and into intense, long-term language study. I don't take any position of doctrine lightly because of my previous thorough indoctrination.

There is literally only the one passage that addresses the topic, and after much prayer and study I cannot conclude that the gifts have ceased. I don't seek a sign in any situation, and I reject most of what is passed off as gifts "operating"; especially the lesser, but vaunted, gift of tongues (and more especially abuse of the unknown tongue).

The line I draw is the lives of those exhibiting so-called gifts. In my experience, I've only observed or demonstrated gifts being truly functional in those with a deep relational spiritual walk. There's too much superfluousness. Gifts are relative to the Giver's functionality in them. Gifts aren't casual flippant exercises for personal attention or anything centered on self.

I'm certainly not charismatic for many reasons. I do believe in speaking forth the word by faith, but not the conjering of the Word of Faith movement. I WILL have what I say. I just say whatever scripture says instead of "Lear jet", Merecedes", and "house with staff". I say, "I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus." I put Him in remembrance of His Word by speaking it, not by speaking soulishly in my own words for my own desires.

Some would call me Pentecostal because of some of my affiliations or general doctrine, but I don't agree with the Azusa Street thing. And don't EVEN get me started on the Toronto Blessing. I met some folks who took jars to Toronto to "bring back that annointing". Really?! Hardly.

cuz i think you're TOTALLY right to separate the experience from the exegesis. refreshing if we can do that. adapting what rick said in the helio/geo thread; both exegesis and experience can be considered but clearly what's written has to trump our experience....or...does it?

Yes. The gifts can be counterfeited by flesh or the enemy.

love z

so would you click "other" in a poll like this or "continuationist"?

I don't engage much on the topic, but I'd click Continuationist if I were voting in a poll. My answers most often require an asterisk anyway. The Greek is predominantly clear to me. I do see the Cessationist view and exegesis. It's not convincing from a textual perspective.

The Giver SO eclipses the gifts, and there's too much crap out there. I say... pray with the understanding and seek to prophesy (scripture, not the future or "speaking into someone's life") and let all be done decently and in order. A sequential chorus of "Yabba Dabba Doo" after "Help me tie my bowtie" verses ain't gettin' it. Shutchermouf if your old ex-girlfriends were all named "Shonda Mahaiyah".

re: original sin....no biggie. we can do that another time or whenever.

Sometime. :-)

by **strangelove** Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:13 pm

Sounds like PPS just believes in the gift of forthtelling the Word of God as seen in scripture.

Fine with me.

I met some folks who took jars to Toronto to "bring back that annointing".

LOLZ! Jesus-in-a-jar?????

My flabber has truly been gasted.

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:02 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
I don't engage much on the topic, but I'd click Continuationist if I were voting in a poll. My answers most often require an asterisk anyway.

lol. ain't it the truth.

by zone Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Strangelove wrote:
LOLZ! Jesus-in-a-jar?????

My flabber has truly been gasted.

ya doc. you know the toronto thingee. its all about fire and stuff.....and falling down and whatnot.

Catch The Fire is a family of churches and ministries worldwide that was birthed as a result of the incredible revival that began in Toronto in 1994. Today Catch The Fire encompasses a growing network of churches, a college with International Schools of Ministry, a missions program and events running all over the world.

http://www.catchthefire.com/

...

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:45 pm

Strangelove wrote:Sounds like PPS just believes in the gift of forthtelling the Word of God as seen in scripture.

I believe all the gifts are intact, and I've observed them. It's more an issue of "how", "why", and "who" than "what". It's just all supposed to be the Word in some fashion and for the Gospel. I've observed healings, but only by a few godly men. They were significant, though. I can elaborate if you want.

I met some folks who took jars to Toronto to "bring back that annointing".

LOLZ! Jesus-in-a-jar?????

My flabber has truly been gasted.[/quote]

Yeah, the jar was on their mantle with the lid off and I asked, "Hey, what's that jar there for?". Then they told me of the story of driving to Toronto and running around during the service "filling" up the jar with the annointing. There was a long silence after their story. I suppose they wanted me to think it was like opening the Ark of the Covenant or something. I just looked at them and said my cordial good-byes.

by **strangelove** Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:51 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:I believe all the gifts are intact, and I've observed them. It's more an issue of "how", "why", and "who" than "what". It's just all supposed to be the Word in some fashion and for the Gospel. I've observed healings, but only by a few godly men. They were significant, though. I can elaborate if you want.

I have no doubt that God can be petitioned by believers and administer miraculous healing according to His will.

But if godly men truly have 'gifts' then I will simply ask what I always ask when claims like this are made.

Why the heck arn't they down at the local pediatric cancer ward healing desperately ill young children.....and converting atheist onlookers in the process?.....a-la the Apostles in the NT?

Can't? Won't? Shouldn't? Dont' care?.......?......?

by unclefester Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:16 am

Strangelove wrote:
I have no doubt that God can be petitioned by believers and administer miraculous healing according to His will.

But if godly men truly have 'gifts' then I will simply ask what I always ask when claims like this are made.

Why the heck arn't they down at the local pediatric cancer ward healing desperately ill young children.....and converting atheist onlookers in the process?.....a-la the Apostles in the NT?

Can't? Won't? Shouldn't? Dont' care?.......?......?

Ditto. As far as modern day tongues, apostles and prophets go, I am a cessationist thru and thru. I spent my early years of Christianity going to meetings and observing the Catholic Charismatic Movement (at it's onset), which essentially was and still is an offshoot of Pentecostalism. After that, I attended a Pentecostal church for five years or so. Never once in that entire period of time did I have a sense of surety/security regarding what was being taught. Not once. I witnessed more than a few close friends first experiences of "speaking in tongues". I was encouraged to seek it but never was much good at pretending. For me, it would have been just that ..... pretending. I remember the instructions given me like it was yesterday. Just do this and it will come ...... ti ti ti ti ... ta ta ta ta ..... and so it went. This was the experience of many, if not all. A couple were more refined with a tad more of an "expansive vocabulary" but quite frankly, there wasn't a thing authentic about any of it. As the years went by and I matured in my faith, I knew in my heart of hearts (my spirit) that this is not what faith in God was about. Further studying resolved the issue in my mind leaving no doubt whatsoever. As much as it pains me to say this because I personally know and love some who call themselves Pentecostal, I am convinced that this movement does far more harm to the cause of Christ and the gospel than it could ever do good. It is no coincidence that it is by signs and wonders by which many will be deceived. Having said that, I believe that God can and sometimes will do the miraculous. But it will always be by His choosing and for His purpose only. And it won't require a modern day apostle or prophet to accomplish this. Their mission and purpose was for the establishment of His church some 2,000 yrs. ago. Tongues ? Everybody here knows for whom and what they were for. And in every instance, they were a known earthly tongue (language). Have there been times in my life where I've petitioned my heavenly Father for the miraculous ? You betcha there has been ! Having lived the experience of watching the missus and two of my four daughters each having separate bouts with varying types of cancer, I know what it truly means to groan and utter (in anguish) in the Spirit to my God. And all praise and glory to His precious name, I also know how it feels to have those prayers answered. All three are doing wonderful today. In one case, we had a 99.97% chance of hearing the worst. 99.97% ! So yes, .... God is not limited or silent ..... and He still performs the miraculous. Thank you Jesus, my Lord and my God.

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:50 am

Strangelove wrote:

I have no doubt that God can be petitioned by believers and administer miraculous healing according to His will.

But if godly men truly have 'gifts' then I will simply ask what I always ask when claims like this are made.

Why the heck arn't they down at the local pediatric cancer ward healing desperately ill young children.....and converting atheist onlookers in the process?.....a-la the Apostles in the NT?

Can't? Won't? Shouldn't? Dont' care?.......?......?

The head of the ministry is nearly 80 years old. He has spent His life doing just that. I've personally observed a number of notable miracles. His last trip to Africa a few months ago, he went out into the very poor rural areas where he generally goes, and an entire school for the blind came to his small meeting. He prayed for each of them, and all 30+ of them received their sight. Many others who were sick and afflicted came from the villages and every one of them were healed. Hundreds received the truth of the Gospel.

His isn't a fluffy charismatic tourist ministry. At 80, he sleeps in the truck cab with his feet on the dash so he can go and shared the Gospel. The few close Pastor friends of mine that are half his age that go with him rotationally are barely able to keep his pace. All he does is pray and read the Word and go minister the Gospel. Healings are always part of his meetings, and not hangnails and tummy aches or Benny Hinn charades. The blind see, the deaf hear, the mute speak, the lame walk. It's what sent me back to the text.

A young woman years ago was gloriously saved in one of his services. She had been a prostitute since she was 14 or 15. A couple of years later, one of the sons of one of the Pastors in the ministry married her after a lengthy courtship. Due to her years of prostitution, she had had a hysterectomy some years before her repentance.

They wanted to have children, so they came to the altar weeping. This man of God laid hands on her and prayed. That week they went for a doctor appointment, believing in advance for a miracle. The doctor confirmed she now had a uterus. They conceived a child shortly thereafter and their healthy baby boy was born 9 months later.

God's ministry in him, and in the Pastors' under him, is replete with such examples. He had an opportunity back in the day to be part of the TV crowd. He started down that road, but saw the money-grubbing. At one joint meeting with some of the big-namers, they brought him a huge bag of money. When he asked what it was, they said it was his "cut". He answered that the money was given for mission work to share the Gospel, not as a love offering for evangelists. They told him to shut up and take his money. He told them to keep it and walked out to go do street meetings in poor neighborhoods.

Never have I seen such pure hearts and constant walks of faith in deep prayer and Word as from these men of God in this ministry. The gifts abound among them, but only truly for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He speaks against the TBN apostacy and all the charismatics. It's why I went back to the text and prayer after having been a Dispensationalist. He preaches no rapture, no tribulation, no millennium. That's what started my journey out of Dispy heresy.

by unclefester Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:26 am

I've gotta ask PPS. Is this head of ministry called an apostle or a prophet ? Does he speak in tongues ? If so, is it an earthly language ? This is not an attempt to grill you. These are simply questions that I need to ask.

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:45 am

Others have called him both Apostle and Prophet. He doesn't call himself those. He does prophesy. It's always the Word, even if it applies to a coming event or life.

Tongues aren't much a part of the ministry, though I've heard congregants speak in tongues at times while praying alone. There's no emphasis on tongues, just Jesus and lost souls, and prayer. The instances I've seen were languages.

You can ask me whatever. I'm not defensive and I trust those who are here. I don't know what else to say other than what I've seen and heard, and how it sent me back to the text. I've struggled back and forth with it because of the widespread abuse and casual lifestyles of those purporting things like prophet schools/seminars/classes and tongues "techniques".

by unclefester Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:02 am

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Others have called him both Apostle and Prophet. He doesn't call himself those. He does prophesy. It's always the Word, even if it applies to a coming event or life.

Tongues aren't much a part of the ministry, though I've heard congregants speak in tongues at times while praying alone. There's no emphasis on tongues, just Jesus and lost souls, and prayer. The instances I've seen were languages.

You can ask me whatever. I'm not defensive and I trust those who are here. I don't know what else to say other than what I've seen and heard, and how it sent me back to the text. I've struggled back and forth with it because of the widespread abuse and casual lifestyles of those purporting things like prophet schools/seminars/classes and tongues "techniques".

Cool. Your candor is both appreciated and necessary for this discussions sake. In America PPS .... have the blind received their physical sight or have the lame walked. Have the deaf had their hearing restored and do some now speak who once could not thru this ministry ? Have any dead been raised to life again in the physical sense ? I really do not enjoy posing questions but for the sake of being honest with myself, I have to. Are miracles of God reliant upon the measure of our faith ? Would the evidence of many miracles performed serve to nullify ones need for faith given that the observations of such could leave no doubt ? Where does salvation faith fit into the equation when the evidence of the miraculous cannot be denied ? I have never witnessed the blind eyes opened or the lame take up their mats. I have never witnessed the mute to speak or deaf ears opened (in the physical sense). I have never witnessed the dead raised to life (again, in the physical sense). But I am certain that all of these things did occur some 2,000 yrs. ago by the apostles of old. And I am also certain that our heavenly Father does at times intervene in the lives of many, including my own when it pleases Him to do so. So many many questions here. I hope this convo/thread can answer some for me.

by **strangelove** Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:38 am

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:The head of the ministry is nearly 80 years old. He has spent His life
doing just that. I've personally observed a number of notable miracles.
His last trip to Africa a few months ago, he went out into the very
poor rural areas where he generally goes, and an entire school for the
blind came to his small meeting. He prayed for each of them, and all
30+ of them received their sight. Many others who were sick and
afflicted came from the villages and every one of them were healed.
Hundreds received the truth of the Gospel.

I wonder if we can possibly have a name?

News reports? Reactions? This must have been earth shattering news?

by zone Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:22 pm

ya...honestly, i would want to know who the man was and/or have access to some kind of record of the events so i could check the claims myself.

i'll echo what's already been said : i believe everything recorded in scripture happened just as its written. and that God works according to His Own will now. He is able to do whatever He desires at any time.

with that said, i'm not required to believe rumors or anecdotal stories today. particularly in an age when we do have access to film and such.

anyways...

by unclefester Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:39 pm

What is troubling to me regarding todays "gifts" is this. Is the Spirit of God today showing one group of believers one thing and a different group of believers yet another ? And this .... " it is thru signs and wonders by which many will be deceived ". Why this warning ?

by **strangelove** Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:13 pm

PPS, its important I get this mans name and verify the miracles. I need to show my parents. This could be something they can grab hold of and bring them to the faith, a start anyway. We need details. A few months ago you say? In Africa? Which country exactly?

by **strangelove** Wed May 30, 2012 5:47 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:Yeah, I was going to get back to that thread after medical stuff, but now I've decided it doesn't need your scoffing scrutiny.

I'm not a NAR guy in the least. The men I'm speaking of don't need your authentication. And the charismatics and NARs hate them. You wouldn't be able to find much on them anyway. They're just plain humble men of God sharing the Gospel.

And YOU need to provide textual evidence for cessation instead of barking about the NAR freaks.

So, are you saying that an entire village cured of blindness did not make a single news article?

How do we know your guy isn't a NAR freak? He could be. We just need to see the evidence man, whats the prob?

by **strangelove** Wed May 30, 2012 5:48 pm

You are telling me that miracles of God have occured and yet refuse to show us.

That stinks.

by zone Wed May 30, 2012 5:52 pm

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
The men I'm speaking of don't need your authentication.

wha? since when are we discouraged from testing all things and testing those who claim to be prophets and apostles?

paul said it was noble to test doctrine and in Revelation Jesus commended those who tried men who claimed to be apostles (authoritative messengers with supernatural/miraculous ability) and found "them" to be false - they're out there.

guys who are claiming to do miraculous works in the Name of Christ by the power of the Spirit absolutely DO need authentification...at least we should be able to know their names so we can judge for ourselves, pps.

just names. nobody here plans to stalk anybody. i would like to know who they are and where these things are happening, in case they ARE real, and in case they are not.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:They're just plain humble men of God sharing the Gospel.

if they're performing miraculous things while sharing the gospel that means they have apostolic authority. quite a bit more than you're suggesting.

and if they have that kind of first century authority and miraculous buttressing of the gospel message, the church needs to know who they are.

PneumaPsucheSoma wrote:
And YOU need to provide textual evidence for cessation instead of barking about the NAR freaks.

i can do that.
the NAR are freaks. but they're the intentional and logical and only possible fruit from the neo-montanist infusion of last century. that tree has grown from the seeds sown by Pentecostalism. everybody knows that by now pps.

they're not doing anything or making any claims any other continuationsts don't make.
its just that they come right out with it.

anyways....i'll go over to that other thread. if we agree on one "gift" alone used in continuationism ("tongues"), the whole thing either stands or falls.

by Hammer Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:32 pm

Part 1

If you visit a Pentecostal church, you won't find anything compelling that the people there are anything other than self-deluded. You can find youtube videos of any well known Pentecostal minister using fraudulent tactics. You can hear of great miracles performed in Africa, but you won't get proof. If proof is ever supplied, it's a blatant hoax.

Here's a youtube video of a preacher healing a man with two broken legs: TWO BROKEN BONES INSTANTLY RESTORED!! UNDENIABLE PARALYSIS HEALING. I can't post links: www*youtube*com/watch?v=n_mBaCqRc94

We're to believe that this man went to the hospital/clinic, where his legs were x-rayed, showing two severely broken legs. Then, he later arrived at church without so much as a makeshift splint to immobilize his legs. Hospital treatment without even getting the most basic first aid? Not credible. There are several other reasons why this video looks fake, but my point is already made.

The clear evidence that the Pentecostal movement is a combination of self-delusion and fraud isn't proof of cessationism, but the Pentecostal movement isn't evidence of continuationism. The Pentecostal movement itself started in the 20th century, rather than being something that continued from the First century.

by Abiding Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:53 pm

a topic today att cc was whether a believer should go to a hypnotist.
i said they already do...their Rolling Eyes

called charismatics.

by **strangelove** Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:35 pm

Abiding wrote:a topic today att cc was whether a believer should go to a hypnotist.
i said they already do...their called charismatics.

?!

PftLOLZ! Abiding! Laughing

by zone Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:26 am

Abiding wrote:a topic today att cc was whether a believer should go to a hypnotist.
i said they already do...their called charismatics.

continuationist or cessationist? Th?id=I.4668866407367822&pid=1

by PneumaPsucheSoma Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:49 pm

I'm "continuing" this thread rather than starting another. LOL.

As I have a number of times, and regularly in constant vigilance; I'm again thoroughly revisiting the Continuation/Cessation doctrinal topic. It got a bit ridiculous the last time I broached this subject, but my hope is that it won't take that course this time.

In thinking about one particular ad hominem statement from previously, it actually rang true. I AM an embarassed (Pentecostal). I don't really affiliate with Pentecostals because of the stigma and their abusive practices, but it's semantics to skate around it. I'm a Continuationist, and that generally makes me Pentecostal. So I'll just leave that issue as it is.

I've been again revisiting the text, which doesn't give any diversification or support from other passages. I'm so disgusted with all the rampant Kundalini, I just avoid the whole topic and practice. Even though I'd use my personal descriptor of "Prima Scriptura", I'm not technically Sola Scriptura.

That's likely majority semantical, just as my position is that eschews the label "original sin". Man cannot effect his own salvation. So I'm trying to weed out the semantics, even if I have a different "how" for the "what". And in the case of original sin, it leaves others presuming I'm Pelagian to some degree. I'm not in the least.

Anyway... As I look at the Greek text, I don't see ANY indication that the gifts have ceased. It's all predicated upon scripture being interjected as "that which is perfect", and that doesn't work.

So what I'm requesting is textual evidence for Cessation from this or ANY passage. How would you frame it up from scripture for a teaching session.

If experience isn't the indicator by participation, then it isn't the indicator in times of absence; especially since the practice was abrogated by Reformed Doctrine.

Whether you realize it or not, I'm the most divested of bias that anyone could possibly be. In a way, I'm constantly searching this out because I don't WANT to be a Continuationist. But I'm compelled by the text, and it doesn't reasonably give Cessation without eisegetic insertion.

Can this be calm and reasonable? I don't really give a rip about the NAR/Kundalini nonsense. If Jannes and Jambres had Moses' staff devour their majick, then the valid and authentic gifts can also eclipse the lying signs and wonders.

It's also difficult for me to reconcile how the most godly men I've ever known could be not only wrong, but to be demonstrating manifestations that are demonic.

This is a true and honest and unbiased search, prompted by my embarassment at being affiliated with Pentecostalism. I've been looking at a bunch of the stuff going on at venues like the Vineyard; and there are those reputed to be doing miraculous things. Robby Dawkins, Todd White. And a guy named Mark Marx has been doing stuff. They just unnerve me.

I'm being as transparent as I know how to be. But this isn't about experience or about abuse. This is about the truth of scripture.

Yes, Kundalini is perverting everything. Yes, the NAR are fruitloops. But if anything, that gives some validity to counterfeiting the authentic.

With that, I open the dialogue.

by **strangelove** Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:49 am

PPS, why don't you give us some textual evidence for continuationism?

My position is that the Apostles had some miraculous gifts.

Those gifts never ceased. The Apostles just.....died.

Everything in Corinthians 14 is pointing the Church AWAY from any thoughts of performing miraculous actions and TOWARDS simple faith, the Gospel truth and charity etc.

To put away the "childish things".

The Good news is what matters.

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continuationist or cessationist?

continuationist or cessationist?

continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Re: continuationist or cessationist?

Geocentricity - Ordered Quotes