Oscar?

oscarkipling wrote:honestly, I dont think it's so simple as a reasonable unreasonable dichotomy. Clearly with all of the other things that you believe its an inevitable conclusion. however from my perspective, that is thinking from the position that what i've come to understand about God, Satan and the nature of man (from my discussions on the other christian forum) is true, then its not implausible that this could be a tactic employed, but it seems entirely unnecessary. I think it also presumes that there are very few if any people that find the unbeliever position reasonable through honest means, and yet maintain curiosity and seek to interact in a non malicious way. This I believe is again plausible, but entirely unnecessary. So I would have to say that it depends on some more specific beliefs outside the bare minimum christian beliefs (that Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins, and that Satan is a real adversary, and men are sinners) in order to arrive at this as a reasonable conclusion, although those beliefs do make the proposition plausible.

Why does it seem entirely unnessesary to you that satan would want to promote atheism/anti Christianity on Christian forums?

oscarkipling wrote:I think that even if I am an agent of Satan, I dont see why its necessarily true (from a general christian perspective) that i would be aware , and in fact revel in causing Christians misery. I could be just as effective at sowing discord and doubt with genuine beliefs and the honest intent of inquiry as I could be with an agenda of destruction...perhaps I could even be more effective...but this is just speculation on my part.

I totally agree.

oscarkipling wrote:anyway, while I understand why you are really only able to draw certain conclusions about my character and intent, and that it is reasonable given your beliefs, I find it extremely difficult to understand why you wouldn't want me to leave....that is perplexing.

Why would I want you to leave?
Do you think I am concerned that you might deceive some of the members here?

Or do you think I'm maybe confident regarding my duties as a good Christian admin on this little forum, which includes but isn't restricted to......exposing the motives of potential wolves?

It's nice being led by the Holy Spirit. Things just fall into place.

G'night.

zone wrote:
which part do you mean?

well I think given what I know about your beliefs I can understand why you believe that there are so few real Athiests, however I am curious about how you know that they dont stick around for years?

zone wrote:
um...cuz i've been at this for years?
let's talk about it if you want.

So in other words, of the atheists you've met, you've never found one to stick around for years. I think you've made a generalization here that you are not qualified to me. That is you dont know every atheists, or their habits...so its at least feasible that there are several atheists that you have not encountered that have in fact stuck around for years.

Strangelove wrote:
Why does it seem entirely unnessesary to you that satan would want to promote atheism/anti Christianity on Christian forums?

you misunderstand me, its not that its unnecessary that Satan would want to promote atheism, I think its unnecessary that Satan would send out fake atheists in order to promote atheism when there are plenty of unbelievers that willingly and unwittingly do his bidding anyway. Not to mention all of the other genuine wiccans, Buddhists,and new agers and such that all genuinely believe in their respective philosophies and unwittingly, yet willingly do satan's work for him....and that's the belief aspect, there are so many other sins that are super easy and super distracting, that come completely naturally to man (in his fallen state that is).

Strangelove wrote:
I totally agree.

But you don't think I'm honestly deceived, you think I'm aware, dishonest, deceitful and malicious correct?

Strangelove wrote:

Why would I want you to leave?
Do you think I am concerned that you might deceive some of the members here?

Or do you think I'm maybe confident regarding my duties as a good Christian admin on this little forum, which includes but isn't restricted to......exposing the motives of potential wolves?

It's nice being led by the Holy Spirit. Things just fall into place.

G'night.

I suppose.

oscarkipling wrote:
well I think given what I know about your beliefs I can understand why you believe that there are so few real Athiests, however I am curious about how you know that they dont stick around for years?.

hehe.
what do my beliefs have to do with the number of true atheists in the world?

perhaps it might be useful to explain your definition of atheist again oscar. if you don't mind.

well, it might be a reasonable conclusion (but i don't know yet) that i've spent more time on more Christian forums than you have?

also, regarding the list of groups and affiliations you don't belong to - is it a reasonable assumption you're not familiar with who/what they are?

if you're not, then you wouldn't know them from people posing as atheists...correct?

oscarkipling wrote:
So in other words, of the atheists you've met, you've never found one to stick around for years. .

i didn't say never, not one.
you might be an exception.

oscarkipling wrote:
I think you've made a generalization here that you are not qualified to me. That is you dont know every atheists, or their habits....

no, i haven't made a generalization...you just might be an exception;)

i was married to a true atheist for over a decade: and all of our (many) friends were atheists (primarily academics/professors). i know them very well indeed.

not ONE of them was as familiar with the Christian scriptures as you. and they most certainly didn't have an appetite for the company of Christians.

i guess this might be an appropriate time to ask if you might consider yourself an activist concerning your beliefs? in other words, is atheism a cause/reason for your presence on Christian/other forums?

oscarkipling wrote:
so its at least feasible that there are several atheists that you have not encountered that have in fact stuck around for years.

its possible. but those folks have a reason(s) for sticking around.
we can talk about that if you like.

oscarkipling wrote:you misunderstand me, its not that its unnecessary that Satan would want to promote atheism, I think its unnecessary that Satan would send out fake atheists in order to promote atheism when there are plenty of unbelievers that willingly and unwittingly do his bidding anyway.

mind if i step in here?
as i mentioned oscar, true atheists (garden-variety unbelievers) who are not involved in activism regarding the promotion of atheism are not in the least bit interested in the company of christians.

you get that, right?

zone wrote:
mind if i step in here?
as i mentioned oscar, true atheists (garden-variety unbelievers) who are not involved in activism regarding the promotion of atheism are not in the least bit interested in the company of christians.

you get that, right?

not really, I grew up with Christians, my family are Christians, and some of my friends were Christians (I say were, they probably still are, but I dont really live near anyone anymore and we sort of lost touch), heck most people in the US at least claim to be Christians, I've worked with Christians, I've even dated Christians. So not only do I not mind the company of Christians, I dont see how I (or any American really) could avoid Christians even if I wanted to. I dont know where you live, but in some of the places i've lived, hanging out with Christians was inevitable unless you just didn't socialize.

oscarkipling wrote:

not really, I grew up with Christians, my family are Christians, and some of my friends were Christians (I say were, they probably still are, but I dont really live near anyone anymore and we sort of lost touch), heck most people in the US at least claim to be Christians, I've worked with Christians, I've even dated Christians. So not only do I not mind the company of Christians, I dont see how I (or any American really) could avoid Christians even if I wanted to. I dont know where you live, but in some of the places i've lived, hanging out with Christians was inevitable unless you just didn't socialize.

but i'm not talking about hanging out with them because its unavoidable. i'm wondering about intentionally seeking them out for discussion.

the unbelievers without an agenda that i know avoid christians like the plague. after all - they are opposed to Christian beliefs.

again i guess i'd ask if you would in truth say that you have a desire to promote atheism. if we could establish that, we'd be getting somewhere.

your posts at some forums are very complex, very lengthy and extremely well-informed. you're very familiar with the scriptures, and have made a point of arguing for the non-existence of the Christian God in particular.

mind you, you might be using a different name at other religious forums so i wouldn't know that at this point.

~

you said this on another forum:

"many atheists, including myself believe that morality may (even will likely) become better with philosophical, technological and cultural advancements."

would you care to expand on this oscar? specifically, what did you mean by technological advancements improving morality?

something like this?:

Neuroscience of Morality

zone wrote:
hehe.
what do my beliefs have to do with the number of true atheists in the world?

nothing, but they do have something to do with how many atheists you believe are in the world.

zone wrote:
perhaps it might be useful to explain your definition of atheist again oscar. if you don't mind.

an atheists is a person that does not believe that God, or Gods exist.

zone wrote:
well, it might be a reasonable conclusion (but i don't know yet) that i've spent more time on more Christian forums than you have?

If its more than the ~4 odd years I spent on bible-forums, then yes.

zone wrote:
also, regarding the list of groups and affiliations you don't belong to - is it a reasonable assumption you're not familiar with who/what they are?

I would say that I am familiar with many of them but not all, however I think that you believe that at least some of them are different than the "mainstream" concept of who or what they are.

zone wrote:
if you're not, then you wouldn't know them from people posing as atheists...correct?

well, in this case people could be posing as anything, I cant say that I can determine for certain that what a person professes to believe or not believe is actually what they believe or dont. All I can do is see if their professions match my understanding of the features of the group they claim to be a part of, and if those both match expected behaviors....there are lots of ways for this to go wrong though, so yes people could be pretending to be things that they are not and i would have no practical way of knowing. To be honest I have no practical way of know whether or not you are a christian outside what you say here, you could be faking.

zone wrote:
i didn't say never, not one.
you might be an exception.

no, i haven't made a generalization...you just might be an exception;)

okay, well, then I misunderstood you, I thought you were generalizing when you were not, my mistake.

zone wrote:
i was married to a true atheist for over a decade: and all of our (many) friends were atheists (primarily academics/professors). i know them very well indeed.

not ONE of them was as familiar with the Christian scriptures as you. and they most certainly didn't have an appetite for the company of Christians.

i guess this might be an appropriate time to ask if you might consider yourself an activist concerning your beliefs? in other words, is atheism a cause/reason for your presence on Christian/other forums?

personally I dont think I'd feel honest about my atheism if I didn't investigate it thoroughly, and whether I'm right or wrong on this issue, i always sort of frown upon atheists who never even attempt to learn about that thing they dont believe in. I dont remember who said this ,but its like saying that you dont like a movie or a book but you've never seen or read it. Anyway, no atheism isn't a cause for me, i do think that some religious ideas/behaviors are dangerous, and I am against those (like suicide bombings, killing/torturing children as witches,), but I dont think that I am against them any more than I'm against child prostitution or murder or general stuff that hurts people. To speak plainly, no its not a cause.

zone wrote:
its possible. but those folks have a reason(s) for sticking around.
we can talk about that if you like.

My reasons, or you mean the reasons that you believe that people have for sticking around?

oscarkipling wrote:I grew up with Christians, my family are Christians, and some of my friends were Christians (I say were, they probably still are, but I dont really live near anyone anymore and we sort of lost touch), heck most people in the US at least claim to be Christians, I've worked with Christians, I've even dated Christians. So not only do I not mind the company of Christians, I dont see how I (or any American really) could avoid Christians even if I wanted to. I dont know where you live, but in some of the places i've lived, hanging out with Christians was inevitable unless you just didn't socialize.

so, is it fair to say, with the world's religions factored in to your experience that "I dont see how I (or any American really) could avoid Christians even if I wanted to" kinda gets closer to what i was saying about the number of atheists out there?

perhaps its hard to find any atheists to socialize with outside academia?

zone wrote:
but i'm not talking about hanging out with them because its unavoidable. i'm wondering about intentionally seeking them out for discussion.

okay I see, yes it is different. well, I dont mean this to be sarcastic in the slightest, but if you want to talk about Christianity, and Christian issues who better to seek out than Christians. I suppose the obvious next question is why i want to talk about christianity and christian issues, and i think at its heart is that Christianity is all around me. I've wondered why since I was a child, and when science was concerned It was never a problem to ask or read about the why's and how's, but with religion, it was much more touchy (i'm talking from my personal experience of how I grew up). I think if I had grown up with the feeling that asking zounds of questions about God was just as acceptable as asking zounds of science questions, i might not be an adult that is now asking all of these questions...as it stands though, its sort of like being able to ask and talk about things that maybe i didn't feel i could before as a kid....this is just one aspect of it., maybe we'll get into more later.

zone wrote:
the unbelievers without an agenda that i know avoid christians like the plague. after all - they are opposed to Christian beliefs.

I avoid some Christians like the plague...like I have no desire to be stopped on the street by people passing out watchtower. I dont like to deal with angry Christians (or angry people in general) that talk about violence, or what people they hate for whatever sins. I think you guys here are actually the most extreme (as it was said Geo believers are a small group within Christianity) group of Christians that I've dealt with in discussion. I think mostly I avoid christian groups that I feel I'll just argue with and not really learn anything and we'll just both walk away angry or whatever..idk

zone wrote:
your posts at some forums are very complex, very lengthy and extremely well-informed. you're very familiar with the scriptures, and have made a point of arguing for the non-existence of the Christian God in particular.

well I dont believe in any Gods, but i think if i'm on a christian forum bringing up how I dont believe in Zoroaster or Tiamaatt would be moot, because as they say Christians and I are both atheists about every God except one (you could insert any religion in there...well some religions have many gods, but you get the point)

zone wrote:
mind you, you might be using a different name at other religious forums so i wouldn't know that at this point.

~

I am a member of precisely 3 christian boards, this one, bibleforums and ourchristionboard. the latter of which I was invited to. I am oscarkipling on all of them.

zone wrote:
you said this on another forum:

"many atheists, including myself believe that morality may (even will likely) become better with philosophical, technological and cultural advancements."

would you care to expand on this oscar? specifically, what did you mean by technological advancements improving morality?

something like this?:

Neuroscience of Morality

Principal Researchers: Prof. J. Savulescu, Prof. W. Sinnott-Armstrong, Prof. N. Levy, Prof. B. Fulford.

Further Researchers: Dr N. Shea, Dr B. Foddy.

In the last decade, neuroscientists and psychologists have produced a substantial body of empirical evidence which challenges established views of morality and rationality. This evidence may be incompatible with the central methodology in practical ethics which involves putting weight on intuitions in ethical reflection (Rawls 1951, 1972; Daniels 1996).

http://www.neuroethics.ox.ac.uk/research/area_4

...

i'm going to take this question to the other thread okay oscar?

yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, but also treatments that might mitigate or eliminate things like sociopathy and cleptomania...you know.

zone wrote:
what do my beliefs have to do with the number of true atheists in the world?

oscarkipling wrote:
nothing, but they do have something to do with how many atheists you believe are in the world.

well, perhaps that's a topic for discussion: i think you have the whole thing backwards oscar. as i mentioned, i had my enclave of atheist friends - all academics. and no coincidence.

in reality they were all activists for their atheism, in one way or another. not one of them openly engaged Christians, but ultimately everything they did was from the position of opposing the idea of the Christian God (consciously or unconciously - it goes with the Tenure territory, doesn't it oscar).

no matter their discipline, be it English/Science/Sociology/Psychology etc....everything they sought, taught and believed was based on opposing the Christian God. many of them claimed to be spiritual people, and they certainly had no problem with ANY of the world's religions....except Christianity.

it was their default position.

regarding the number of atheists walking around in the world:

let's take Soviet Russia just as an example - were the majority really atheists? who were the atheists?

zone wrote:
perhaps it might be useful to explain your definition of atheist again oscar. if you don't mind.

oscarkipling wrote:an atheist is a person that does not believe that God, or Gods exist.

okay...now i guess we'll see about the not believing either being a cause (which makes it a belief system with a need to promote), or simply being an individual's state of mind or worldview.

you are right about what i believe in this case.

since they are groups with occult (hidden) agendas, the mainstream wouldn't be expected to know who/what they are - correct?

i could be faking. that's right.
but one thing you WOULD know, is that i was making a CLAIM about who i am.

presumably when we are having a contractor work on the house/a nanny take care of the kids we do a background check, don't we?

if i was actually part of a subversive group which had a hidden agenda related to YOU and your group what would the expected behavior be if:

1) you didn't know who i really was
2) you did know who i really was

in other words, if i was blue, but my job was to convince you i was orange so that i could infiltrate your orange group, how would you expect me to behave and speak if you didn't suspect me? orangey, right?

and you're not at all suspicious, so any meeting place that says ORANGES WELCOME you assume has only oranges in it.

on the other hand, perhaps you have become aware that blue people have been infiltrating your group, so you have familiarized yourself with the blue group...specifically, you would need to know the blue group's agenda and M.O. so you can spot them...correct?

on a simpler level - given what we now know about things like our banking system - is it in your interest (pun) to find out who you are trusting your life's saving to? is Wall Street a Ponzi scheme? why doesn't the general public suspect that - is it because they are deliberately deceived?

if you have invented something cool and marketable, isn't it wise to obtain a patent or at least protect your intellectual property? why do we have these systems in place oscar? is it because there are thieves and liars in the world?

so if your opposition to the notion of God is not a cause, does that mean you still investigating the matter?

your reasons.
what are your reasons for frequenting Christian boards?

~

i totally messed up the formatting on this post....trying to quote too many things...sorry.
i'll have to move on.
and keep it simpler.

oscarkipling wrote:

okay I see, yes it is different. well, I dont mean this to be sarcastic in the slightest, but if you want to talk about Christianity, and Christian issues who better to seek out than Christians. I suppose the obvious next question is why i want to talk about christianity and christian issues, and i think at its heart is that Christianity is all around me. I've wondered why since I was a child, and when science was concerned It was never a problem to ask or read about the why's and how's, but with religion, it was much more touchy (i'm talking from my personal experience of how I grew up). I think if I had grown up with the feeling that asking zounds of questions about God was just as acceptable as asking zounds of science questions, i might not be an adult that is now asking all of these questions...as it stands though, its sort of like being able to ask and talk about things that maybe i didn't feel i could before as a kid....this is just one aspect of it., maybe we'll get into more later. .

i find this a clear explanation and a reasonable one.
but i have a problem with it somewhat, overall.
yes perhaps we'll get to it.

my experience was quite the opposite - taught godlessness and not allowed to ask questions about God.

zone wrote:
the unbelievers without an agenda that i know avoid christians like the plague. after all - they are opposed to Christian beliefs.

oscarkipling wrote:I avoid some Christians like the plague...like I have no desire to be stopped on the street by people passing out watchtower. I dont like to deal with angry Christians (or angry people in general) that talk about violence, or what people they hate for whatever sins.

gotcha.

oscarkipling wrote:
I think you guys here are actually the most extreme (as it was said Geo believers are a small group within Christianity) group of Christians that I've dealt with in discussion.

lol.
extreme in what way(s) oscar? this is interesting.

zone wrote:
your posts at some forums are very complex, very lengthy and extremely well-informed. you're very familiar with the scriptures, and have made a point of arguing for the non-existence of the Christian God in particular.

zone wrote:
you said this on another forum:

"many atheists, including myself believe that morality may (even will likely) become better with philosophical, technological and cultural advancements."

would you care to expand on this oscar? specifically, what did you mean by technological advancements improving morality?

something like this?:

Neuroscience of Morality
Principal Researchers: Prof. J. Savulescu, Prof. W. Sinnott-Armstrong, Prof. N. Levy, Prof. B. Fulford.

Further Researchers: Dr N. Shea, Dr B. Foddy.

In the last decade, neuroscientists and psychologists have produced a substantial body of empirical evidence which challenges established views of morality and rationality. This evidence may be incompatible with the central methodology in practical ethics which involves putting weight on intuitions in ethical reflection (Rawls 1951, 1972; Daniels 1996).

http://www.neuroethics.ox.ac.uk/research/area_4

oscarkipling wrote:
yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, but also treatments that might mitigate or eliminate things like sociopathy and cleptomania...you know.

well..okay.
perhaps i'll start another thread on atheism and morality?
i can show you how the ideas promoted by the 'science' community at Oxford typified above are not atheistic or scientific ideas at all. in fact that stuff comes from a specific religious community.

but i've shown you that concerning many things already and you remain "unconvinced".
perhaps we'll get to it.
it would be appreciated if, at any time, you see what i am pointing out, or agree that in any measure i'm making sense you could say so...in the interest of time and energy.