The epistle of James and works- based Gospel

Zone, who is bringing the standard down? Not me, that is for sure.

AVoice wrote:Stangelove,

2 Corinthians 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You seem to not be reading the last part of the verse. That verse indicates his purpose for dying for us.

Oh I'm reading the last part. The last part is the whole point. Point being....the SUBSTITUTION.

He was made SIN (OUR sin) so that we could be made RIGHTEOUS (HIS righteousness).

Unless you think that God actually made Jesus a SINNER???? So that we could be totally righteous through our own works??

So the OP would disagree with what Paul says in Eph. 2:9-10?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." 

Grace is revealed in the earlier part of the chapter to be a force that changes the believer. The quickening that results in their not living the way they lived before is accredited to grace, not their own strength. So of course, their being saved from their past way of living is not of their own doing. See Eph 2:1-3,5 and then read all of the context of Eph 2:8-10. Paul was clearly speaking to those who had received the Holy Spirit's power of regeneration, and hence he emphasizes that their works and change for the better is not of their own strength, of their own doing, but of the gift of grace that resulted in those positive works and changes. "Not of works lest any man should boast", is not in the context making what a believer does of no importance. They were not changed (saved) by anything they can take credit for. They did not somehow die for their sins. They believed and that started the process under the intervention of the Spirit that resulted in their new changed (saved) life. Paul is exhorting believers to identify their new changed (saved) life as "his workmanship", not their own.

Wow! Your eisegesis is incredible! 

You just take passages and totally read your own meaning into them. What church did you say you go to? What Seminary did you learn to misread passages so totally?  Here is what Paul was talking about just before Eph. 2:8-10:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Eph. 2:4-6

Do you even know what grace means?

It means UNMERITED FAVOR.  In other words, it is "the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it."

Even James says the following, before he talks about being a "doer of the word."  

"Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with who there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."  James 1:16-18

So James agrees that it is the Father who gives us the gift. And what gift might that be? I would think it is the grace that saves us. That is grace through faith, not of works!

good post Angela! AND, if i may.....James was among those firstfruits, the remnant of Israel God preserved.

and james has passed on to us that

"Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with who there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1:16-18

THANK YOU FATHER

The firstfruits bear fruit, not of their own strength lest they should boast. The credit goes to God who gives grace the result of believing. Grace enables. Paul labored more abundantly than they all, yet not himself but the grace that was given him. Though consciously and willingly doing what he did, laboring in the gospel more abundantly than the other apostles, he understood that the strength was from grace. Yes, unmerited favour. Yes, he was favoured by having been given the strength of grace to do what he did for the glory of God. It was not of himself lest he should try to boast. He knew perfectly well of the power of godliness that worked in him mightily. He exhorts believers to depart from those who deny that power of godliness, which power Jesus died to give us. A 'gospel' that declares a definition of grace that is OUTSIDE the believer, instead of being manifested INSIDE the believer in deed and truth, is guaranteed to be a demonic "gospel".  
There is power in the blood.
Catholocism is demonic. It supports the defeatist gospel that denies the regenerative power of the gift of grace. It denies the power of godliness Jesus died to give his followers.

Is anyone denying that a born again Christian becomes a 'new man' and notices changes in their life for the better?

But whats all this "grace inside the believer" nonsense?

Grace, as Angela has pointed out, is a FAVOR from God...one that we have not earned/deserved. It's not a "thing" that can be in or outside of a believer.

Spiritually we are "filled" with the Holy Spirit.

Did Paul accredit grace to what was responsible for him working more abundantly than they all? Yes or no.
When the definition of grace is limited to unmerited favour but without that favour manifesting INSIDE the life of the person who has it, as we saw in Paul, then it is an empty false definition placing grace OUTSIDE the person.
Imputation has everything to do with changing the person from within. Abraham obeyed a very difficult commandment by faith. Faith brings grace. Grace is manifested in action. Read Heb 11 if you don't believe me.
Works and faith cannot be separated like grace and works cannot be separated. They are part of the same unbreakable chain.
If you were filled with the Holy Ghost you would agree with Gal 5 concerning not committing sin when walking in the Spirit.

No one is denying that a born again Christian becomes a 'new man' and notices changes in their life for the better.

But obedience to Jesus' commandments does not make a Christian undefiled. It cannot unless you keep the law perfectly.

That's why Jesus died for our sins. He was the spotless sacrifice, substituting His righteousness for our sin.

This is the good news.

It seems, AV, that you have wandered over into the sinless perfectionism end of the spectrum. A disastrous place to be. The constant failure must be heartbreaking for you.

SarahM777 wrote:The how do you deal with the thief on the cross? What works of faith could he do?

He repented. Without that work he could not have been saved. At that critical point in Jesus' life, being rejected, and also his disciples having fled, that thief stood up for Jesus and moved God's heart to grant him eternal life.
Resorting to pointing to the thief as evidence that works are not necessary simply does not work.

Strangelove wrote:No one is denying that a born again Christian becomes a 'new man' and notices changes in their life for the better.

But obedience to Jesus' commandments does not make a Christian undefiled. It cannot unless you keep the law perfectly.

That's why Jesus died for our sins. He was the spotless sacrifice, substituting His righteousness for our sin.

This is the good news.

It seems, AV, that you have wandered over into the sinless perfectionism end of the spectrum. A disastrous place to be. The constant failure must be heartbreaking for you.

We are not under Moses' law. So how can you then in the same breath say a Christian cannot be undefiled because that means he has to keep Moses' law? I can help you. Ask me questions. You are confused.
A person is forgiven through the process of accepting Christianity and is then clean. He experiences the joy of being clean and does not want to lose that joy. He is saved and is on the path to eternal life and has eternal life as long as abiding in that path of a good conscience the result of abiding in the cleanness freely given by Christ, the free enabling gift of grace. Sin is a departure from that path of joy of cleanness and of a good conscience. If a Christian sins he has an advocate in Jesus but sinning is very serious and wrecks the joy of being clean and therefore is a grave matter. The Christian who has sinned, the backslider, must sincerely repent and get back in favour with God.
If I wander into sin, and become deceived thereby, supposing it is not a big deal, then Satan has me under his control and delusion. That is what would be disastrous. Is that where you are? The 'sin-is-no-big-deal' doctrine is from hell and is a direct denial for why Christ died for us. It denies that the wages of sin is death.

AVoice wrote:
We are not under Moses' law. So how can you then in the same breath say a Christian cannot be undefiled because that means he has to keep Moses' law?

The definition of sin is the breaking of God's Holy laws. If you don't break any of God's laws then you are not sinning. That is a fact.

AVoice wrote:
I can help you. Ask me questions. You are confused.

I tried asking you questions but you refused to answer. I will try again. Do you sin every day. Yes or no?

AVoice wrote:
A person is forgiven through the process of accepting Christianity and is then clean.

Correct. Declaring Jesus as Lord and Saviour and having the understanding of what that means is what saves a person. That faith and understanding comes from God through His Grace. It is not earned by us. It is not deserved. We didn't change God's mind, or "move Him" to do it.

AVoice wrote:
He experiences the joy of being clean and does not want to lose that joy. He is saved and is on the path to eternal life and has eternal life as long as abiding in that path of a good conscience the result of abiding in the cleanness freely given by Christ, the free enabling gift of grace.

This is nonsense. A Christian doesn't have to do anything to stay on the path. Jesus KEEPS us in His fold because He has predetermined that we are His sheep. Nothing can take away your salvation. Does that mean you can abide in sinful activity day to day and think nothing of it? God forbid! What Christian would do such a thing?!

But does that mean that Christians are absolutely perfect like Jesus was? Of course not. Unless you claim to be? Do you?

AVoice wrote:
Sin is a departure from that path of joy of cleanness and of a good conscience. If a Christian sins he has an advocate in Jesus but sinning is very serious and wrecks the joy of being clean and therefore is a grave matter. The Christian who has sinned, the backslider, must sincerely repent and get back in favour with God.

You have never been clean due to your works. But we repent and ask forgiveness for any sin and due to our faith we are forgiven and counted as the righteousness of Jesus. God doesn't flit from being in favor with us and then we are out of favor and back in again. Once He has chosen us, we are His sheep and nothing can change that.

THAT is the joy of being saved. The confidence of knowing that you WILL be with God forever no matter what. Does that mean we have license to go out and rob stores and kill people day to day? God forbid! What Christian would ever do such a thing?!

AVoice wrote:
If I wander into sin, and become deceived thereby, supposing it is not a big deal, then Satan has me under his control and delusion. That is what would be disastrous. Is that where you are? The 'sin-is-no-big-deal' doctrine is from hell and is a direct denial for why Christ died for us. It denies that the wages of sin is death.

No, that's not where I am. Sin is a big deal. What have I ever said that would lead you to that conclusion?

And you still have not addressed my response to the verse you posted.

2 Corinthians 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

He was made SIN (OUR sin) so that we could be made RIGHTEOUS (HIS righteousness).

Unless you think that God actually made Jesus a SINNER???? So that we could be totally righteous through our own works??

AVoice wrote:He repented. Without that work he could not have been saved. At that critical point in Jesus' life, being rejected, and also his disciples having fled, that thief stood up for Jesus and moved God's heart to grant him eternal life.
Resorting to pointing to the thief as evidence that works are not necessary simply does not work.

Uhm...God knows the end from the beginning so no one surprises God or makes Him decide who is gonna be saved and who isn't. If it is God's plan, a man will be saved.

The thief repented BECAUSE God brought Him into the fold and gave Him the faith required. All good works flow through the faith freely given from God by His grace. In that order!

Here is a nice article:

The Passion of Jesus: So that we can be accepted

AVoice wrote:...since you reckon anything God does through someone is really only their own doing, it is impossible for you to understand.

Sorry what?

Please explain why you say that I reckon that?

AVoice wrote:What we do determines where we must spend eternity.

What we BELIEVE determines where we must spend eternity. And that very belief is allocated by God to us. And good works that God has planned for us, will flow from the believer as a PRODUCT of the faith we are given.

The doctrine that is the one of Satan is the doctrine that our works bring favor from God.

Here is the heart of the Gospel:

Ephesians 2:8-10  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  (9)  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  (10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

To reiterate again, there is no conflict between this and the epistle of James. James makes it clear that good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in DO flow from those who profess Jesus.

To say "What we do determines where we must spend eternity." is NOT the Gospel message. Christians should be encouraging others to read the Word of God and BELIEVE because we know that good works WILL follow, rather than insisting they stop sinning.

AV wrote:His purpose in dying for us was so that we could be literally righteous with the actual righteousness of God, changed by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

So let's have a list of people who have become perfectly righteous then! Examples please!

How righteous are YOU my friend? Are you getting there?

AV wrote:The Apostle John had to wrestle with the same demonic forces trying to make righteousness an issue of mere allocation but without actual literal substance.

Who here is saying there is no literal substance? How many times do I need to tell you that good works flow from true faith?

Satan's oldest trick in the book. Making people believe they can be as Gods. See Garden of Eden.

So repentance isn't necessary for salvation, Stangelove?

AVoice wrote:So repentance isn't necessary for salvation, Stangelove?

Repentance is a natural product of salvation.

Big difference which you fail to grasp.

Strangelove wrote:

Repentance is a natural product of salvation.

Big difference which you fail to grasp.

well said Doc.

Strangelove wrote:

Repentance is a natural product of salvation.

Big difference which you fail to grasp.

I'd say it is a small step towards salvation as the faith is then being tested through good or bad works throughout life.  Repentance is a work of free will to accept what is being offered. So I would classify even the act of repentance as a good work.

We are saved first. We don't get saved because of repentance.

Every good thing comes after. And all credit for every good thing goes to God.

Strangelove wrote:We are saved first. We don't get saved because of repentance.

Every good thing comes after. And all credit for every good thing goes to God.

I was saved before I repented. Glory be to God. It may be that in the eyes of God, we are saved before we are even born after He hands us over to our magnificent Savior who will not fail us to be a Child of God...although the work has not been done yet. Before we choose God, we have already been chosen by Him...the beauty of our great God.

Its pretty easy to see.

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

That's a command from Christ.

Are you doing it?

When we are holding His Hand it sure looks and feels like we are.

But when we look at our works or our circumstances we ALWAYS see our need for the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  No matter how many good works we think we are doing.

Can you grab people out of the pit and pull them into the kingdom of God?  No.  You can only show them the One who can.

That is our greatest work, as far as I'm concerned.  Showing people the One who Can.  The Lord Jesus Christ.