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The Blasphemy of Calvinism

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by CCornelius Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:14 am

How does the Omnipotent Creator and Ruler of the Universe increase the glory rightfully directed to Himself? By creating distinct, independent beings who can chose to glorify Him. If the created people are not capable of independent choice, then it is merely God glorifying Himself via puppets, which would not constitute an increase. It would be like Kermit the Frog glorifying Jim Henson, a delusioin of the puppeteer.

If God predestined the fate of every individual, then He created almost all of them for the purpose of populating Hell. However 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. The word "repent" means, precisely, "turn." It's a change of direction, a choice to do something different.

It is perfectly true that God does not reach out to everyone. So what determines whom He touches and whom He does not? The choice of the individual. In Matthew Chapter 13, Jesus' disciples ask why he speaks to some people in parables. Jesus answers:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Those people closed their own eyes so they would not be healed, saved. Respecting their individual choice, Jesus did not force salvation on them. To do so would have been God making people into robots and thereby defeating His own purpose in creating individuals capable of worshipping Him.

A Calvinist argues that there is nothing one can do to be saved, that God saves whom He will, and man has no contribution to God's decision in the matter. That is a half-truth.

The Bible repeats hundreds of times what an individual must do to be saved. In Acts chapter 16, Paul and Silas are asked what one must do to be saved. They answered:
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So it is a gift, yes. However a gift can be rejected. One must accept a gift to receive it. What the Calvinist is actually saying is that one cannot accept the gift of salvation; God has to accept the gift as well as give it, with man acting as a proxy excersising no more individual will than could a rock.

To the Calvinist, God accepts his own gift by controlling an individual, forcing him to accept it on God's behalf. That is the same as saying that God accepts the gift of salvation!

If our choices are in fact God's choices, if our volition is really God's volition, then how can anyone bring his will into accord with the will of God, as we are commanded to do? It would already be in accord with God's will.

More importantly, if our volition is really God's volition, then in what sense is an individual spiritually distinct from God? Sorry, I choose to pass on the blasphemy.
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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by Bro John Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:40 pm

CCornelius, You have waded into some very deep waters, and you make some very rash statements.  I know because until I sat down and did a deep dive into this awesome subject I was very vocal against it....even from the pulpit.  But one day a t.u.l.i.p. tract fell in my hand.  I fell upon it with a pompous disdain knowing I could dismantle all the arguments and destroy its conclusions.  I had thrown down the gauntlet and fixed my foot.  I had vanquished the adversary.....in my mind.  As God would have it, however, I later had to pick up that article of war with trembling and fall to my knees in utter weakness, and cry out yea, Lord, for so it seemed good in your sight.  CC, that was 30 years ago.    

If you are committed to finding the truth I suggest you begin at two poles.  First, study the federal headship of the 1st Adam and the last, that is Christ.  You will find at the end that Adam the first was the only one of our human race that had true free will.  In the meantime, meditate on these scriptures from Romans 3:11, 12, the none, together, and the all.    

11.  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


12.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Lastly, here some others to contemplate.

Romans 9:10-18

10. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 
11.  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)  
12.  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13.  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14.  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  
15.  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 
16.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  
17.  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  
18.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
John 1:11-13
11.  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.  
12.  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 
13.  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And finally James 1:17,18
17.  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 
18.  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Take care, CC.  

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by CCornelius Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:58 pm

Bro John wrote:CCornelius, You have waded into some very deep waters, and you make some very rash statements.  I know because until I sat down and did a deep dive into this awesome subject I was very vocal against it....even from the pulpit.  But one day a t.u.l.i.p. tract fell in my hand.  I fell upon it with a pompous disdain knowing I could dismantle all the arguments and destroy its conclusions.  I had thrown down the gauntlet and fixed my foot.  I had vanquished the adversary.....in my mind.  As God would have it, however, I later had to pick up that article of war with trembling and fall to my knees in utter weakness, and cry out yea, Lord, for so it seemed good in your sight.  CC, that was 30 years ago.    

If you are committed to finding the truth I suggest you begin at two poles.  First, study the federal headship of the 1st Adam and the last, that is Christ.  You will find at the end that Adam the first was the only one of our human race that had true free will.  In the meantime, meditate on these scriptures from Romans 3:11, 12, the none, together, and the all.    

11.  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


12.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Lastly, here some others to contemplate.

Romans 9:10-18

10. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 
11.  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)  
12.  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13.  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14.  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  
15.  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 
16.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  
17.  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  
18.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
John 1:11-13
11.  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.  
12.  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 
13.  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And finally James 1:17,18
17.  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 
18.  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Take care, CC.  
Not one of those verses or the bald, unsupportable assertions you've made are apropos the points I've made.

In other words, you are merely flinging verbiage at me in oblivious, dissociative desperation.

Calvinism is a devil's lie indulged in by by tares bound for Outer Darkness. I will have no part of it.
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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by Bro John Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:04 pm

CCornelius wrote:
Not one of those verses or the bald, unsupportable assertions you've made are apropos the points I've made.

In other words, you are merely flinging verbiage at me in oblivious, dissociative desperation.

Calvinism is a devil's lie indulged in by by tares bound for Outer Darkness. I will have no part of it.
CC, at the risk of again being on the receiving ends of one of your crabtree cudgel beatings know that the scriptures i sent you show it is impossible to do perfectly as we are now fallen in Adam.  There is NONE that seek after God.  CC, please think.  Did you have anything to do with your natural birth?  That is the underpinninings of Romans, John, and James above. If you had nothing to do with a natural birth, rest assured you had nothing to do with a supernatural one.  Lay on now my friend, lay on.

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by Strangelove Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:27 pm

I've never read a word of Calvin... but predestination is a Biblical fact. I've no idea why anyone has a problem with it.

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by Dave L Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:08 am

CCornelius wrote:How does the Omnipotent Creator and Ruler of the Universe increase the glory rightfully directed to Himself? By creating distinct, independent beings who can chose to glorify Him. If the created people are not capable of independent choice, then it is merely God glorifying Himself via puppets, which would not constitute an increase. It would be like Kermit the Frog glorifying Jim Henson, a delusioin of the puppeteer.

If God predestined the fate of every individual, then He created almost all of them for the purpose of populating Hell. However 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. The word "repent" means, precisely, "turn." It's a change of direction, a choice to do something different.

It is perfectly true that God does not reach out to everyone. So what determines whom He touches and whom He does not? The choice of the individual. In Matthew Chapter 13, Jesus' disciples ask why he speaks to some people in parables. Jesus answers:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Those people closed their own eyes so they would not be healed, saved. Respecting their individual choice, Jesus did not force salvation on them. To do so would have been God making people into robots and thereby defeating His own purpose in creating individuals capable of worshipping Him.

A Calvinist argues that there is nothing one can do to be saved, that God saves whom He will, and man has no contribution to God's decision in the matter. That is a half-truth.

The Bible repeats hundreds of times what an individual must do to be saved. In Acts chapter 16, Paul and Silas are asked what one must do to be saved. They answered:
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So it is a gift, yes. However a gift can be rejected. One must accept a gift to receive it. What the Calvinist is actually saying is that one cannot accept the gift of salvation; God has to accept the gift as well as give it, with man acting as a proxy excersising no more individual will than could a rock.

To the Calvinist, God accepts his own gift by controlling an individual, forcing him to accept it on God's behalf. That is the same as saying that God accepts the gift of salvation!

If our choices are in fact God's choices, if our volition is really God's volition, then how can anyone bring his will into accord with the will of God, as we are commanded to do? It would already be in accord with God's will.

More importantly, if our volition is really God's volition, then in what sense is an individual spiritually distinct from God? Sorry, I choose to pass on the blasphemy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many people worship an Idol they think is Christ? And hate God with a passion if Calvin was right about sin and grace?


Last edited by Dave L on Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : better display)

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by CONSPICILLUM Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:57 pm

Arguments about Calvinism and Arminianism by those who have no idea what words and grammatical forms are and mean remain in the category of most hilarious rantings to me.

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The Blasphemy of Calvinism Empty Re: The Blasphemy of Calvinism

Post by Bro John Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:01 pm

please be so kind as to specifically weigh in on this biblical topic.


Last edited by Bro John on Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mis spelling, i think)

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