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Dating the Book of Revelation

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Post by strangelove Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:09 am

“Pray ye,” says He; “for then shall be  tribulation, such as never was, neither shall be.”  And let not any man suppose this to have been  spoken hyperbolically; but let him study the writings  of Josephus, and learn the truth of the sayings. For neither  can anyone say, that the man being a believer, in order  to establish Christ’s words, has exaggerated the tragical  history. For indeed He was both a Jew, and a determined  Jew, and very zealous, and among them that lived  after Christ’s coming.  What then says this man? That those terrors surpassed all  tragedy, and that no such had ever overtaken the nation.  For so great was the famine, that the very mothers fought  about the devouring of their children, and that there  were wars about this;and he says that many when they
were dead had their bellies ripped up.  I should therefore be glad to inquire of the Jews. Whence  came there thus upon them wrath from God intolerable, and  more sore than all that had befallen aforetime, not in Judea  only, but in any part of the world? Is it not quite clear, that  it was for the deed of the cross, and for this rejection? All  would say it, and with all and before all the truth of the  facts itself.  But mark, I pray you, the exceeding greatness of the ills,  when not only compared with the time before, they appear  more grievous, but also with all the time to come. For not  in all the world, neither in all time that is past, and that is to  come, shall anyone be able to say such ills have been. And  very naturally; for neither had any man perpetrated, not of  those that ever have been, nor of those to come hereafter,  a deed so wicked and horrible. Therefore He says, there “shall be tribulation such as  never was, nor shall be. And except those days should  be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for  the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”  By these things He shows them to be deserving of a more  grievous punishment than had been mentioned, speaking  now of the days of the war and of that siege. But what He  says is like this. If, says He, the war of the Romans against  the city had prevailed further, all the Jews had perished  (for by “no flesh” here, He means no Jewish flesh), both  those abroad, and those at home. For not only against those  in Judea did they war, but also those that were dispersed  everywhere they outlawed and banished, because of  their hatred against the former (Chrysostom, Homilies 75  and 76 on Matthew 24). John Chrysostom (c. 349 to 407)

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Post by strangelove Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:15 am

As for the Antichrist, there is no question but what he is  going to fight against the holy covenant, and that when  he first makes war against the king of Egypt, he shall  straightway be frightened off by the assistance of the  Romans. But these events were typically prefigured under  Antiochus Epiphanes, so that this abominable king who  persecuted God’s people foreshadows the Antichrist,  who is to persecute the people of Christ. And so there are  many of our viewpoint who think that Domitius Nero was  the Antichrist because of his outstanding savagery and  depravity (Commentary on Daniel 11:27-30). Jerome (c. 347 to 420)

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Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
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Post by strangelove Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:23 am

What signs he said that they would see are clear in the  Gospel of Saint Luke, “And Jerusalem will be trod upon  by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles has been  completed” [Luke 21:24]. This has been done, and no  one doubts that it is being done. And there follows, “And  there will be signs in the sun and the moon and in the  stars, and on earth the consternation of the nations”  [Luke 21:25].... For it is clear that at the same time people  saw signs in the sky and endured the consternation of the  nations on earth (Augustine, Letter 199)

Luke the evangelist nonetheless taught that this shortening  of the days and the abomination of desolation pertain to  the destruction of Jerusalem.... For Josephus who wrote the  history of the Jews, says that such evils befell that people  at that time that they scarcely seemed credible [Wars of  the Jews 6.3.3].... But even if there is such tribulation or  worse at the time of the Antichrist, we should understand  that it was said of that people that they will not have such  tribulation any more (Letter 199)

For let us not suppose that the computation of Daniel’s  weeks was interfered with by this shortening of those days,  or that they were not already at that time complete, but  had to be completed afterwards in the end of all things, for  Luke most plainly testifies that the prophecy of Daniel was  accomplished at the time when Jerusalem was overthrown  (Matthew 24:22, quoted in The Golden Chain by Thomas  Aquinas).

These words of our Lord, Luke has here related to show,  that the abomination of desolation which was prophesied by Daniel, and of which Matthew and Mark had spoken,  was fulfilled at the siege of Jerusalem (Luke 21:20, quoted  in The Golden Chain by Thomas Aquinas).

Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430)

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Post by strangelove Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:39 pm

MacDonald, in The Life And Writings Of John, on page 171 “In the Syriac version this book is entitled: ‘The Revelation which was made by God to John the evangelist in the island Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Caesar’. And Theophylact, in the eleventh century, places the origin of the Apocalypse during the reign of Nero.”

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Post by strangelove Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:26 pm

The coming of Christ in the Scriptures has various connotations: It refers to his first advent into the world (Gen. 49:10; Matt. 2:6; Rom. 11:26); to his second advent (Acts 1:11; Heb. 9:28); to his chosen apostles in the church (John. 14:3); to the coming of his kingdom on Pentecost (Matt. 16:28; Mark 9:1); to the destruction of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:1-4; Matt. 24:30; Matt. 25:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; to the death of a Christian at the end of life (Psa. 23:4; I Cor. 1:7-8); to the end of time (I Cor. 11:26; I Thess. 4:15); to the last judgment (Matt. 25:30-31; II Thess. 1:6-10); and to the rewards and judgments in the events of trial described in Revelation, as mentioned in the letters to the seven churches (Rev. 2:5; 2:16; 2:25; 3:3; 3:11; 3:20). (Foy E. Wallace 1997)

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Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:22 am

Is "all the nations" always literal?

Jeremiah 28:11 (KJV) And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. And the prophet Jeremiah went his way.

Was Nebbie ruler over ALL the nations?

1 Chronicles 14:17 (KJV) And the fame of David went out into all lands; and the LORD brought the fear of him upon all nations.

Were the nations in the Americas fearing David?

Acts 2:5 (KJV) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Every nation literally?
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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:43 pm

Jeremiah 4: 23– 28 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. 25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled. 26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the Lord, before his fierce anger. 27 For thus says the Lord, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken.”

God destroyed the holy temple, the symbol of God’s covenant, in 587 B.C. through the Babylonians, he used the cosmic terms of all of creation being undone. It’s told in the terms of a reversal of Genesis 1. These cosmic disturbances did not occur literally when this prophecy was fulfilled. The earth did not return to the original state of chaos, “without form and void”; men and birds did not vanish from the earth; the sun, moon, and stars did not literally go dark. These were all decreation terms to express the spiritual reality of God’s covenantal relationship being violated.

Godawa, Brian. End Times Bible Prophecy: It’s Not What They Told You (Chronicles of the Apocalypse) (p. 55). Warrior Poet Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:46 pm

Isaiah 24: 21– 23 On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. 22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed.

When Israel was destroyed and led into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar in the 6th century B.C., Isaiah used the same poetic metaphor of sun, moon, and stars as symbols of spiritual powers linked to earthly powers.

Godawa, Brian. End Times Bible Prophecy: It’s Not What They Told You (Chronicles of the Apocalypse) (p. 56). Warrior Poet Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:49 pm

Within the mainline Jewish writings of this period, covering a wide range of styles, genres, political persuasions and theological perspectives, there is virtually no evidence that Jews were expecting the end of the space-time universe. There is abundant evidence that they, like Jeremiah and others before them, knew a good metaphor when they saw one, and used cosmic imagery to bring out the full theological significance of cataclysmic socio-political events. There is almost nothing to suggest that they followed the Stoics into the belief that the world itself would come to an end; and there is almost everything— their stories, their symbols, their praxis, not least their tendency to revolution, and their entire theology— to suggest that they did not. What, then, did they believe was going to happen? They believed that the present world order would come to an end— the world order in which pagans held power, and Jews, the covenant people of the creator god, did not.

N. T. Wright, The New Testament and the People of God, Christian Origins and the Question of God (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1992), 333.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:34 pm

Hebrews 1: 1– 2 (written in the first century) Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

1 Peter 1: 20 (written in the first century) He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

1 John 2: 18 (written in the first century) Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

1 Peter 4: 7 (written in the first century) The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 Corinthians 10: 11 (written in the first century) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Acts 2: 15– 20 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17 “And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.”

The end of the world?

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Post by Bro John Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:56 pm

Dear sir, very good points above.  As I mentioned before I am seriously rethinking my position on when the book was written.  I was arguing Rev 17 as being post 70 but when I look carefully at the narrative spoken by the angel to John at the time he received the vision I had to reconsider.  (vrs 7-18) the 8th or scarlet colored beast is yet future at the time but he WAS one of the seven.  He is after the 7th which had not yet come. (verse 10) The 10 horns are attached to this last head and are future from the time of the angel's present interpretation. (v12,13)  These shall make war with the Lamb---- future tense.  

But concerning the woman, she was presently sitting (vs 9,15) The woman is that great city making it present at John's day but her judgment is future.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:09 pm

Bro John wrote:Dear sir, very good points above.  As I mentioned before I am seriously rethinking my position on when the book was written.  I was arguing Rev 17 as being post 70 but when I look carefully at the narrative spoken by the angel to John at the time he received the vision I had to reconsider.  (vrs 7-18) the 8th or scarlet colored beast is yet future at the time but he WAS one of the seven.  He is after the 7th which had not yet come. (verse 10) The 10 horns are attached to this last head and are future from the time of the angel's present interpretation. (v12,13)  These shall make war with the Lamb---- future tense.  

But concerning the woman, she was presently sitting (vs 9,15) The woman is that great city making it present at John's day but her judgment is future.

We are all learning bro. I'm still undecided on many things on Rev.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:58 pm

Josephus, Wars of the Jews (2.465)

It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied, and those of old men, mixed with infants, all dead, and scattered about together; women also lay amongst them, without any covering for their nakedness: you might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities, while the dread of still more barbarous practices which were threatened, was everywhere greater than what had been already perpetrated.[ 31] (6.275-276) Yet was the misery itself more terrible than this disorder; for one would have thought that the hill itself, on which the temple stood, was seething hot, as full of fire on every part of it, that the blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain more in number than those that slew them; for the ground did nowhere appear visible, for the dead bodies that lay on it; but the soldiers went over heaps of these bodies, as they ran upon such as fled from them.[ 32] (6.428-429) Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in a prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives.[ 33] (6.420-421) Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself.

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:31 pm

The evidence now available, including that from epigraphy and archaeology, appears to show that the cult of Caesar, so far from being one new religion among many in the Roman world, had already by the time of Paul’s missionary activity become not only the dominant cult in a large part of the empire, certainly in the parts where Paul was active, but was actually the means (as opposed to overt large-scale military presence) whereby the Romans managed to control and govern such huge areas as came under their sway. The emperor’s far-off presence was made ubiquitous by the standard means of statues and coins (the latter being the principal mass medium of the ancient world), reflecting his image throughout his domains; he was the great benefactor, through whom the great blessings of justice and peace, and a host of lesser ones besides, were showered outwards upon the grateful populace — who in turn worshipped him, honored him, and paid him taxes.

N.T. Wright, “Paul’s Gospel and Caesar’s Empire,” in Ed. Richard A. Horsley, Paul and Politics: Ekklesia, Israel, Imperium (Penn., Trinity Press, 2000), 161

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Post by strangelove Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:40 pm

Hebrews 12: 26– 28 At that time [Mosaic old covenant] his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken— that is, things that have been made— in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.

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Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:44 pm

Eusebius adds, “To these accounts it may be proper to add the sure prediction of our Savior, in which He foretold these very events.” He then quotes from Jesus’ prophecies of Matthew 24 and summarizes as follows: “Allthis occurred in this manner, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, according to the predictions of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who by his divine power foresaw all these things as if already present at the time, who wept and mourned indeed at the prospect, as the holy evangelists show in their writings [the Gospels]. . . . On comparing the declarations of our Savior with the other parts of the historian’s work, where he describes the whole war, how can one fail to acknowledge and wonder at the truly divine and extraordinary foreknowledge and prediction of our Savior?”

Eusebius Pamphilus, Ecclesiastical History. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, reprinted 1993. Book III, Chapters 5-7: 85-93.

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Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:44 pm

According to the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, “Clouds serve as God’s war chariot in the imagination of the Old Testament poets and prophets. . . . One of the most pervasive images of Christ’s return is as one who rides his cloud chariot into battle.”

“Cloud,” from the Dictionary of Biblical Imagery. Edited by L. Ryken, J.C. Wilhoit, and T. Longman III. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1998: 157.

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Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:45 pm

In his Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius quotes from Josephus,

Necessity forced them to apply their teeth to every thing, and gathering what was no food, even for the filthiest of irrational animals, they devoured it, and did not abstain at last even from belts and shoes. They took off the hides from their shields and devoured them, and some used even the remnants of old straw as food; others gathered the stubble, and sold a very small weight of it for four Attic drachms.

Shennea, Duncan. Prophecy Without Panic: A Brief Introduction to Partial Preterism (p. 77). Vision Publishing/CDNE. Kindle Edition. 

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Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:45 pm

It was now a miserable case and a sight that would justly bring tears into our eyes, how men stood as to their food, while the more powerful had more than enough, and the weaker were lamenting (for the want of it). But the famine was too hard… insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and, what was still more to be pitted, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives…So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city.  Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine; and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged… Nor was there any place in the city that had no dead bodies in it, but what was entirely covered with those that were killed either by the famine or the rebellion.

Flavius Josephus, Wars of The Jews, p. 229

(Newton, Stan. Glorious Kingdom: A Handbook on Partial Preterist Eschatology (p. 251). Vision Publishing. Kindle Edition. )

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Dating the Book of Revelation - Page 4 Empty Re: Dating the Book of Revelation

Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:46 pm

"There may be another very important  and very providential reason here assigned for this strange and foolish retreat of Cestius; which Josephus had been now a Christian, he might probably have taken notice of also; and that is, the affording of the Jewish Christians in the city an opportunity of calling to mind the prediction about thirty-three years and a half before, that “when they should see the “abomination of desolation” (the idolatrous Roman armies, with the images of their idols in their ensigns, ready to lay Jerusalem desolate,) “stand where it ought not:” or “in the holy place”…”they should flee to the mountains.” By complying with which those Jewish Christians fled to the mountains of Perea, and escaped this destruction."

Flavius Josephus, Translated by William Whiston, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2001), 631.

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Dating the Book of Revelation - Page 4 Empty Re: Dating the Book of Revelation

Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:49 pm

"It is a sign, and an important proof, of the coming of the Word of God, that Jerusalem no longer stands. ... For ... when the truth was there, what need any more of the shadow? ... And this was why Jerusalem stood till then - namely, that they [the Jews] might be exercised in the types as a preparation for the reality."

Athanasius - On the Incarnation (De Incarnatione Verbi Dei) - Circa AD320

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Dating the Book of Revelation - Page 4 Empty Re: Dating the Book of Revelation

Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:50 pm

Suetonius cites a parallel puzzle based on the aggregate of the letters in Greek (1005), as current in Nero's own lifetime:

Count the numerical values
Of the letters in Nero's name,
And in 'murdered his own mother':
You will find that their sum is the same.

[Nero; tr. R. Graves, The Twelve Caesars, 1962.]

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Dating the Book of Revelation - Page 4 Empty Re: Dating the Book of Revelation

Post by strangelove Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:56 pm

SOON...

τάχει tachos & en tachei mean “quickly, all at once, without delay.”

Revelation 1:1 – “…things which must shortly take place”
Revelation 2:16 – “Repent, or else I will come to you quickly”
Revelation 3:11 – “Behold, I come quickly!”
Revelation 22:6 – “…things which must shortly take place.”
Revelation 22:7 – “Behold, I am coming quickly!”
Revelation 22:12 – “Behold, I am coming quickly.”
Revelation 22:20 – “Surely I am coming quickly.”

εγγυς, engus means “at hand, near”

Revelation 1:3 – “The time is near.”
Revelation 22:10 – “The time is at hand.”

μελλει, mello, mellei means “about to, on the point or verge of”

Revelation 1:19 – “Write … the things that are about to take place.”
Revelation 3:10 – “… the hour of trial … is about to come upon the whole world.”

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Dating the Book of Revelation - Page 4 Empty Re: Dating the Book of Revelation

Post by strangelove Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:41 am

"All the Roman engines were well built, but those belonging to the Tenth legion were most powerful. Their stone -projectors hurled boulders weighing a talent (75-85 pounds) a quarter mile, and the Jews set lookouts on the towers to spot the fired stones which, being white, shone and whizzed as they flew. When they saw the stone discharged, these watchmen would call out, 'Sonny's coming!' ("The stone" in Hebrew is ha-eben, which is easily corrupted to ha-ben, "the son.") - at which those in the line of fire dropped down to let the stone pass through harmlessly. When it occurred to the Romans to blacken them, the stones were more effective, destroying many with a single shot."

(Josephus The Essential Writings p.340)

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