Salvation: Allready attained? Or an End result?

I love you too, Zone, and i wasnt technicaly talking TO you.

But I was never taught what i just spoke, by any person. I was in a "AoG" school for a year and a half, and they were anytthing BUT "Holy"or Holyness.

I have not thought, nor beleived what i just said, untill I gave my life over to Jesus(which wasnt untill this past september, of which i was a FILTHY rotten sinner, Jesus saved me WHILE i was a horrible sinner). and re-read somethings in the scriptures. As well as had confimation by others.

And I KNOW that if we dont fast and pray, CONSTANTLY and rest in Jesus, and then fast and pray some more, then the flesh will never die.

We are flesh. But we have the spirit of God in us. The only sin that a man can sin after He has been baptized and received the Holy ghost is if he is not walking in the spirit. Our goal is to keep our flesh dead. If we are in the flesh we are in sin. If in the spirit then we are perfect, and sinless. So therefore we are and will always be sinners but Christ which is inside of us keeps us from ALL sin. So we ourselves overcome nothing to any spiritual profit. But Christ that is in us overcomes everything to everlasting life. This is the grace of God to us, that through him we can kill the flesh. Not purify the flesh, but keep it dead.


This takes alot of prayer and fasting. We must fast until they have no desire to eat or to play or to do any fleshly thing, even fast until they feel like they will die. A persons life after baptism is to be a life of death to the flesh.

I never said it was easy to overcome Sin, and again, I wasnt talking to YOU, i was talking to the doctrine.

This is no longer time to not be serious, Jesus has been telling me this for a LONG time, you know this Zone, On CC, that was what FIRST started getting people angry at me, that i was telling them to stop sinning. But if I feel that Jesus is telling me that it is required, to STAY IN THE SPIRIT, by US doing nothing but dieing, then should i ignore what God is telling me, or should i warn and tell everyone?

God removed ALLOT of Sin from me as well, nothing of MY doing. He took it away from me, and then becasue i asked him, he took the desire for it, occasionaly it will creep back up, and the temptation will arise, but you dont HAVE to give into temptation.

But you also can't spend a life of comprimise with the flesh, you cant.

Im talking to my self as well. Its NOT going to be easy. infact it gets HARDER, the more Sin that is overcome with Jesus, the hader it is to overcome the next one.


Our life is about humbling ourselves, and then dying. and then praying, fasting, realising more areas of pride in our lives, and then praying and fasting, and humbling some more. We ARE disciples of Jesus, and that has NOTHING to do with law. it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that, he tells us to Deny, Hate, and Kill your Flesh. And you CANT do it, with out relying soley on his spirit.

Especially now, this time, which is UNLIKE any time before, we NEED to rest, in the spirit, we need to humble ourselves, and STRIVE to be as seperate from the world, and our flesh as possible.

And I WOULD NEVER tell people this if i did not think Jesus was telling me so.

This is NOT part of a teaching of a man. and if I comprimise any longer with what I beleive God is telling me, then its comprimise with GOD. and What God thinks of me is much more important then what anyone else does.

Calvanism is a false Doctrine Zone. aside from what i have allready said. According to Calvanist predestination, That means that HELL is not for you. There is NOTHING that you could do to go to hell, becasue you were predectined to Be with the LORD.

Dont you see how that is wrong? Jesus Bought you. His blood was a price for YOU, if you CHOOSE to Beleive. If you say that you were always going to be saved, then...that causes some discrepencies in the Gospel.

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

They wouldnt be considered FALSE Prophets if they were Plainly denying Jesus. But Peter Specifically calls them FALSE Prophets, Meaning they SAY they come in the name of Jesus, but they do not. In stead they come in the Name of a FALSE Jesus, denying the LORD that Bought them.

Also: God is the SAME yesterday today and tomorrow.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”



Just take a look at all of this. Please. I love YOu Zone, as well as you to Doc.

Its not an easy walk, but its important to strive to stay in the spirit.

KingdomSeeker wrote:2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

They wouldnt be considered FALSE Prophets if they were Plainly denying Jesus. But Peter Specifically calls them FALSE Prophets, Meaning they SAY they come in the name of Jesus, but they do not. In stead they come in the Name of a FALSE Jesus, denying the LORD that Bought them.

Ok this is an interesting verse that seems to support your position. Could it be though that the word 'Lord' here is talking of God the father?

and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants (i), and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jde 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" nor is this the only place the apostle refers to in this chapter, see 2 Peter 2:12 compared with Deuteronomy 32:5 and it is to be observed, that the persons he writes to were Jews, who were called the people the Lord had redeemed and purchased, Exodus 15:13 and so were the first false teachers that rose up among them;

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Also: God is the SAME yesterday today and tomorrow.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

No one said we dont have free will to choose mate. But if God calls us, we will make the right choice!

KingdomSeeker wrote:
Just take a look at all of this. Please. I love YOu Zone, as well as you to Doc.

Its not an easy walk, but its important to strive to stay in the spirit.

I dont need to strive to stay in the spirit. God KEEPS me there with the Grace and Faith that He gave me free of charge. And by His Grace I bear good fruit by nature.

You really need to address all the scripture I've posted. I addressed yours now you cover mine please. This is the Bible study forum.

and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants (i), and which God has over all mankind

It COULD be said that this verse was talking about God the Father,

Exodus 15:16"terror and dread will fall upon them. By the power of your arm

they will be as still as a stone—until your people pass by, O Lord,until the people you boughtpass by."

Luke 2:29 "“Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word;"

But these verses(as well as a few others) seem to say differently,

1 Cor 7:23 "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

Rev 5:9 "And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,"

Rev 14:3-4"And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

In the New Testement, The idea of Puchasing, or buying, or redeeming, is uniformly given to Jesus. ...The Father indeed is represented as making the arrangement, as giving his Son to die, and as the great Source of all the blessings secured by redemption; but the "purchase" was actually made by Jesus, by his sacrifice on the cross.

Acts 20:28

(which is a GREAT verse btw, one to remeber if you are ever in a conversation with a JW)

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

First off, This is talking to "Sheepherds" to Gods Flock, WHY would the children of God, need verseers, if there was no way they could stray from God?

Second, Jesus(being God) Purchased the congragation with his blood, I still dont see how "Denying the lord that bought them" would be mean different even if it was talking about the Father..."I and the Father are ONE" God came in the flesh died for you. Why would he need to die for you, and ransom you from death, if you were predestined to be with him?

Deuteronomy 32:6
"Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?"

Colosians 1:16
"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him"

Deuteronomy 32:5
"They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children because they are blemished; they are a crooked and twisted generation.

2 Peter 2:12
"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,"

Again, I dont see what THESE verses have to do with Jesus NOT buying us with his blood, but i will try to adress them. Peter(a jew saved by Jesus) is adressing jews(claiming to be saved by Jesus) yet apparently denying the one who bought them(probably saying that Jesus couldnt be God) And also Apparently Slandering Angels.

Peter then calls them ". . .Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam"

Which reminds me of Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth."

Repent...if they DONT repent, then HE(Jesus) will war agaisnt them with the sword of his mouth.

Its ALL about repentance. Its about NOT deviating from the Word

2 Peter 2:1
“but there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even deny the Lord who bought them and bring on themselves swift destruction.”

2 Peter 2:15 "They have forsaken the right way and gone astray”


Jude 20-25
“But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”


2 Peter 3:14-18
“You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.”


NO ONE is exempt from falling away.

Hebrews 12:1-2
“...let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

No one said we dont have free will to choose mate. But if God calls us, we will make the right choice!

AMEN! I agree, but your argument was that someone who is called by God CANT EVER walk away, which is actually kinda daring God...You by all means CAN, and like those verses say, Those men were.

I dont need to strive to stay in the spirit. God KEEPS me there with the Grace and Faith that He gave me free of charge. And by His Grace I bear good fruit by nature.

Galatians 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

Thats what i mean by strive. Its not a "cake-walk" when paul says Walk by the spirit, God is NOT going to keep you in a place that you dont want to be, and if you WANT to be, then its up to YOU to walk in it.

You really need to address all the scripture I've posted. I addressed yours now you cover mine please. This is the Bible study forum.

I hope I have adressed all the scriptures, and all of them fully. If not Just let me know.


Thanks Doc, Thanks for keeping this civil(even though it CAN turn deadly..haha ) And thank you much for this forum again. Jesus bless you Brother, and i hope we can continue this conversation. Its imperative that Gods children Live IN him, like never before.

I hope I have adressed all the scriptures, and all of them fully. If not Just let me know

Lolz..NO! You havnt addressed ANY of my predestination scriptures.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)

You did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16)

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out (John 6:37).

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39)

Now, are you SURE you wanna be saying that those that God CHOSE to salvation and are KEPT by HIS POWER can then be lost by their own will or by satans or anyone elses power?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Please tell me how all these verses work in your theology where those who are truly in Christ can fall away to eternal damnation.

After that we can move on to your latest post.

HAAHAH! ...Oh THOSE....

I thought you ment from that current post...yeah..


Ummm how about tomorrow. Its seems as if time has escaped me...its 5:20 in the morning...sigh...hahah

Well let me adress this one, because it caught my Eye

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

Romans 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Also: Revelation 2:21 "I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling."

This is to the Church, the congragation of Called out ones. they were all ready part of the body of Christ, when they decided to go and be immoral.

Also: Revelation 16:11 "and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds."

They did not repent, instead they cursed God. They did not repent, meaning they had the Chance to...They took the mark of the beast...and still had the chance to repent... God DOES NOT WANT ANYONE to perish, God is not a potter who revels in destruction...


Also Read Jeremiah 18

We, following Jesus can always back out.

..anyway...That one just called out to me... Ill do the rest tomorrow. Take care .

Huh?

Does God make some people Vessels of dishonor and others vessels of honour??

He MADE them that way...Yes or No?

KingdomSeeker wrote:I love you too, Zone, and i wasnt technicaly talking TO you.

But I was never taught what i just spoke, by any person. I was in a "AoG" school for a year and a half, and they were anytthing BUT "Holy"or Holyness.

I have not thought, nor beleived what i just said, untill I gave my life over to Jesus(which wasnt untill this past september, of which i was a FILTHY rotten sinner, Jesus saved me WHILE i was a horrible sinner). and re-read somethings in the scriptures. As well as had confimation by others.

And I KNOW that if we dont fast and pray, CONSTANTLY and rest in Jesus, and then fast and pray some more, then the flesh will never die.

We are flesh. But we have the spirit of God in us. The only sin that a man can sin after He has been baptized and received the Holy ghost is if he is not walking in the spirit. Our goal is to keep our flesh dead. If we are in the flesh we are in sin. If in the spirit then we are perfect, and sinless. So therefore we are and will always be sinners but Christ which is inside of us keeps us from ALL sin. So we ourselves overcome nothing to any spiritual profit. But Christ that is in us overcomes everything to everlasting life. This is the grace of God to us, that through him we can kill the flesh. Not purify the flesh, but keep it dead.


This takes alot of prayer and fasting. We must fast until they have no desire to eat or to play or to do any fleshly thing, even fast until they feel like they will die. A persons life after baptism is to be a life of death to the flesh.

I never said it was easy to overcome Sin, and again, I wasnt talking to YOU, i was talking to the doctrine.

This is no longer time to not be serious, Jesus has been telling me this for a LONG time, you know this Zone, On CC, that was what FIRST started getting people angry at me, that i was telling them to stop sinning. But if I feel that Jesus is telling me that it is required, to STAY IN THE SPIRIT, by US doing nothing but dieing, then should i ignore what God is telling me, or should i warn and tell everyone?

God removed ALLOT of Sin from me as well, nothing of MY doing. He took it away from me, and then becasue i asked him, he took the desire for it, occasionaly it will creep back up, and the temptation will arise, but you dont HAVE to give into temptation.

But you also can't spend a life of comprimise with the flesh, you cant.

Im talking to my self as well. Its NOT going to be easy. infact it gets HARDER, the more Sin that is overcome with Jesus, the hader it is to overcome the next one.


Our life is about humbling ourselves, and then dying. and then praying, fasting, realising more areas of pride in our lives, and then praying and fasting, and humbling some more. We ARE disciples of Jesus, and that has NOTHING to do with law. it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that, he tells us to Deny, Hate, and Kill your Flesh. And you CANT do it, with out relying soley on his spirit.

Especially now, this time, which is UNLIKE any time before, we NEED to rest, in the spirit, we need to humble ourselves, and STRIVE to be as seperate from the world, and our flesh as possible.

And I WOULD NEVER tell people this if i did not think Jesus was telling me so.

This is NOT part of a teaching of a man. and if I comprimise any longer with what I beleive God is telling me, then its comprimise with GOD. and What God thinks of me is much more important then what anyone else does.

Calvanism is a false Doctrine Zone. aside from what i have allready said. According to Calvanist predestination, That means that HELL is not for you. There is NOTHING that you could do to go to hell, becasue you were predectined to Be with the LORD.

Dont you see how that is wrong? Jesus Bought you. His blood was a price for YOU, if you CHOOSE to Beleive. If you say that you were always going to be saved, then...that causes some discrepencies in the Gospel.

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

They wouldnt be considered FALSE Prophets if they were Plainly denying Jesus. But Peter Specifically calls them FALSE Prophets, Meaning they SAY they come in the name of Jesus, but they do not. In stead they come in the Name of a FALSE Jesus, denying the LORD that Bought them.

Also: God is the SAME yesterday today and tomorrow.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Just take a look at all of this. Please. I love YOu Zone, as well as you to Doc.

Its not an easy walk, but its important to strive to stay in the spirit.

Also: God is the SAME yesterday today and tomorrow.

and since He NEVER changes,
since He requires PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS to enter Heaven (seamless and lifelong perfect obedience to His Holy Law in all it's spiritual moral content as well as the letter of The Law), sorry: no matter how GOOD you get, you're still not good enough.

you need someone else's righteousness to enter eternity and see God...someone who is and always absolutely as Holy and perfect as God.

because yours counts for NOTHING.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

i'm not of calvin. i do not base my understanding of how God justifies the ungodly on predestination. i base my understanding of WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED on the Scriptural promises.

if you are an honest man (which i believe you are), please post again when you have sinned (according to the unchanging God's Standards). and tell me what it felt like to have Jesus cast you aside.

let's look again at the title of the thread.

SALVATION: already attained? or an end result.

Rob, i would ask you to wear a different hat for a moment and post all passages you can find that say we have received eternal life upon receiving saving faith.

no matter how GOOD you get, you're still not good enough.

Again, you arent getting it. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It has to do with Dying! Are you Dead? Im not! But im called to be!!
And My origional OP was is salvation NOW or at the End? Then i answered what i beleive.

and i posted a bunch of verses that back it up 1 peter 1:5 being one of them

1Peter 1:5 "who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."

there are a BUNCH more that say SALVATION is revealed in the LAST TIME. THE END.

Gods power is the Holy Spirit, that you receive after being baptised by the holy spirit. Receiving the holy spirit is at a different time than Converstion to Jesus. Two different things.

The holy spirit keeps you dead IF you stay in it. The Holy spirt WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU, just like Jesus will never leave you. SATAN cant take you away from God. But YOU can be tempted, and fall away....falling away is NOT by people who where never there

Thats our mission in life! Preach the gospel of the Kingodm, and DIE! and try to stay dead! How? STAY IN THE SPIRIT, and you CANT do it with out an acton that YOU do. That acton is prayer and fasting and letting God know that you are serriously seeking him.

Your answer to that would probably be(I assume, becasue it seems to be most ppls answer) "I dont need to seek Jesus, becasue I know where he is he's in side me...id he inside you?" Yes he is, adn he told me to fast and pray like no tomorrow, so as i completley die. You can either belive it or not, its the truth. you can Ask God to show you, if im telling the truth, or you can NOT ask him.

Either way its something I (actually Everyone needs to do it...but i gues people will fight) need to do. So I wills go do it.

Rob, i would ask you to wear a different hat for a moment and post all passages you can find that say we have received eternal life upon receiving saving faith.

Titus 1:2 "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began"

The eternal life was Promised, Predestined for those who CHOOSE Jesus, its a chocie, Granted God will harden and have mercy on who he wants to. But its a chocie. and its a chocie to stay in it.

Titus: IN HOPE OF Eternal life. Salvation is a gift, it is NOT yours, it is GODS, he gave it to you freely, but YOU can choose to walk away from it. I beleive that salvation is the END result, from a life of denying the flesh, staying on the narrow road, and staying in the spirit. Adhereing UNTILL the end.

And that adherence has NOTHING to do with being Good. Your goodness is flithy rags. it has EVERYTHING to do with obedience, noe mater WHAT YOU think, God WILL NOT allow dissobedient "children" into his kingdom. Obedience is key. anyway this is going in circles.

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes, Why do people quote john but usually they never go beyond this verse. John ALSO says

1john 2:3-4
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

We need to STRIVE to stay in the spirit. I call it a striving becasue Satan will stop at nothing to keep us from doing so.

KingdomSeeker wrote:

Yes, Why do people quote john but usually they never go beyond this verse. John ALSO says

1john 2:3-4
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

we do not keep on sinning.
i've said it, doc has said it.
any Christian knows it >> we feel it. it hurts.

but john makes clear any who say they never sin are liars.

KingdomSeeker wrote:We need to STRIVE to stay in the spirit. I call it a striving becasue Satan will stop at nothing to keep us from doing so.

Rob.
if you think satan can pluck you out of God's Hand i don't know what to say.

in the last verses Paul covers every conceivable thing: height, depth (meaning as infinite as the universe); creatures of every kind; perils, death (notice he mentions life also): ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN ALL OF CREATION CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM THE GOD WHO ARRANGED FOR YOUR SALVATION.

this is the last post on this thread for me.
if the following message isn't true, not one of us has a single wisp of hope.
i love you brother.

Romans 8
God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be^h against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.ⁱ 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

36As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sigh...

Satan WILL try to stop you from praying. Im sure you have noticed.

He WILL try to get you to sin. He might succed.

NO Satan CAN NOT kee you from SAlvation, HE CANT pluck you out of Gods hand.

But YOU can walk away. Thats ALL i have been saying. By dissobedience you can walk out fro mthe provision of the father and his hans are tied, becasue YOUR will keeps HIM from doing anything. If you allow sin to creep back up, then it ceates a wall. and God wont be able to work in you untill you repent. Once you repent its liek it never happend. But you can NOT repent.

and if you die, before you fully repent, and fully forgive, adn fully live fo jesus denying yourself and making him LORD, then ...it goes back to what i have been saying

KingdomSeeker wrote:Sigh...

Satan WILL try to stop you from praying. Im sure you have noticed.

He WILL try to get you to sin. He might succed.

NO Satan CAN NOT kee you from SAlvation, HE CANT pluck you out of Gods hand.

But YOU can walk away. Thats ALL i have been saying. By dissobedience you can walk out fro mthe provision of the father and his hans are tied, becasue YOUR will keeps HIM from doing anything. If you allow sin to creep back up, then it ceates a wall. and God wont be able to work in you untill you repent. Once you repent its liek it never happend. But you can NOT repent.

and if you die, before you fully repent, and fully forgive, adn fully live fo jesus denying yourself and making him LORD, then ...it goes back to what i have been saying

TELL ME HOW TO DO IT ROB!!

How can I 'fully repent'?

How do I fully 'live to Jesus'?

Whats the recipe? What rules do I need to follow? I thought I repented against all my sins but you obviously think there is more to do.

So tell us!

True faith is not enough according to you so.....WHATS NEXT?

And whats with the constant praying and fasting bizzness?

Dont pray and dont fast.

But also dont mock. If you cant see what i have ben trying to say, by what i allready hve said then nothing i say will do anything.

I didnt think this would turn into an attack, i also didnt think someone would deperately NOT want to pray and fast...

Doc, Im calling quits on this topic. I know you, as wel as Zone, know Jesus. and I know he will Keep you as he keeps me.

I never ment to make it seem like i was privy to some secret knowledge...but thats the way i think you may be taking it...

So DONT fast. DONT pray with out ceasing.

Ill be over in the next room talking about pyramids...

KingdomSeeker wrote:Again, you arent getting it. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has to do with Dying! Are you Dead? Im not! But im called to be!!
And My origional OP was is salvation NOW or at the End? Then i answered what i beleive.

and i posted a bunch of verses that back it up 1 peter 1:5 being one of them

1Peter 1:5 "who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."

there are a BUNCH more that say SALVATION is revealed in the LAST TIME. THE END.

Yes we dont know who is saved and who isn't (Except ourselves) so all who are saved will be revealed in the last time. I may see you there I may not. We'll see at the end.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Gods power is the Holy Spirit, that you receive after being baptised by the holy spirit. Receiving the holy spirit is at a different time than Converstion to Jesus. Two different things.

Does 'conversion to Jesus' mean believing in Him?

I dont get it? Doesnt it say believe and be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit?

Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

KingdomSeeker wrote:The holy spirit keeps you dead IF you stay in it. The Holy spirt WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU, just like Jesus will never leave you. SATAN cant take you away from God. But YOU can be tempted, and fall away....falling away is NOT by people who where never there

Do you see how that makes no sense at all? Who does the tempting?

KingdomSeeker wrote:Thats our mission in life! Preach the gospel of the Kingodm, and DIE! and try to stay dead! How? STAY IN THE SPIRIT, and you CANT do it with out an acton that YOU do. That acton is prayer and fasting and letting God know that you are serriously seeking him.

Show me in scripture where the ACTS of praying and fasting is what keeps us in the spirit. Dont you see how you are ascribing your justification to YOUR OWN WORKS? Thats not preaching the Gospel. Thats another Gospel. Your particular brand seems to be piousness. You need to relax man. Let the Holy Spirit do its work in you.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Your answer to that would probably be(I assume, becasue it seems to be most ppls answer) "I dont need to seek Jesus, becasue I know where he is he's in side me...id he inside you?" Yes he is, adn he told me to fast and pray like no tomorrow, so as i completley die. You can either belive it or not, its the truth. you can Ask God to show you, if im telling the truth, or you can NOT ask him.

Gos speaks to us through His Word. You can help God to show me your position on praying and fasting if you can show me the scripture.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Titus 1:2 "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began"

The eternal life was Promised, Predestined for those who CHOOSE Jesus, its a chocie, Granted God will harden and have mercy on who he wants to. But its a chocie. and its a chocie to stay in it.

Indeed, and guess who gives us the faith and clarity and understanding and eyes and ears and sense to make the right choice? Starts with G ends in D (Hint: The guy we give ALL Glory to, not keeping even one IOTA for ourselves)

KingdomSeeker wrote:Titus: IN HOPE OF Eternal life. Salvation is a gift, it is NOT yours, it is GODS, he gave it to you freely, but YOU can choose to walk away from it. I beleive that salvation is the END result, from a life of denying the flesh, staying on the narrow road, and staying in the spirit. Adhereing UNTILL the end.

Your right but it happens naturally through faith which is a gift of God and not of ourselves lest any should boast. We repent from sin because of God's work in us not because of OUR righteousness.

KingdomSeeker wrote:And that adherence has NOTHING to do with being Good. Your goodness is flithy rags. it has EVERYTHING to do with obedience, noe mater WHAT YOU think, God WILL NOT allow dissobedient "children" into his kingdom. Obedience is key. anyway this is going in circles.

Doesnt make sense. Total contradiction.

KingdomSeeker wrote:

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes, Why do people quote john but usually they never go beyond this verse. John ALSO says

1john 2:3-4
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Rob just answer me honesty, do you sin?

If yes, do you seriously believe there will come a time in this temporal age where you wont sin at all?

Is it a Christians mission to become COMPLETELY sinless and perfect....in this age?

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are saved by faith.....now. Done deal. At the end of the age, on the last day, our salvation will be revealed by our glorified bodies and physical presence with the Lord.

KingdomSeeker wrote:Dont pray and dont fast.

But also dont mock. If you cant see what i have ben trying to say, by what i allready hve said then nothing i say will do anything.

I didnt think this would turn into an attack, i also didnt think someone would deperately NOT want to pray and fast...

Doc, Im calling quits on this topic. I know you, as wel as Zone, know Jesus. and I know he will Keep you as he keeps me.

I never ment to make it seem like i was privy to some secret knowledge...but thats the way i think you may be taking it...

So DONT fast. DONT pray with out ceasing.

Ill be over in the next room talking about pyramids...

brother. i love you. i do pray, and have fasted (though i was called to do it).
i love your devotion.
we need each other.
please forgive if i've hurt you.
we're saying the same thing.


your sister in Jesus
zone, zoner, zonest

"Ill be over in the next room talking about pyramids"
*chuckle*

Strangelove wrote:Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are saved by faith.....now. Done deal. At the end of the age, on the last day, our salvation will be revealed by our glorified bodies and physical presence with the Lord.

Colossians 1:23
"if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."
you need to continue in the faith that saves you.

1 Timothy 1:19
"holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,"
some have shipwrcked their faith(ruined?)

1 Timothy 6:12
"Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses."
Faith is a fight. you take HOLD of Eternal life(jesus) and you never let go...but you CAN let go.

2 Timothy 1:13
"But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You had faith in order to beleive the teachings of Jesus. and you WHOLEHEARTEDLY obeyed. not half heartedly.

Acts 14:22
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."
You need to Continue in the Faith. insinuating that you can STOP continuing.

Revelation 14:12
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
Keeping the comandments, AND keeping the faith in Jesus. Two seperate things, and both are possible to NOT keep.

Grace AND faith AND salvation, JESUS is FREE, and FREELY comming down from Heaven, the bread of Life, the manna from heaven.

Jesus will never leave you. God wont, his spirit wont.

But Then WHY is there a theme of Continuing, not falling away?

Maybe im reading this all wrong. But my original point was that, GOD wont leave. But he doesnt stop you from going. Satan has no power so he cant pull you away. But he can get you to sin, and keep sinning(which still technicaly doesnt keep you from God, if you repent) and then in that Sin(with out repenting) YOU can walk away, and go after the flesh, so that if Jesus does come back(or you die) and sees you going after the flesh Especially after knowing his grace and mercy, then you are no longer under his provision YOU removed yourself. Yes?

Im not saying anyone does this...Im just saying IT IS possible, you are saying it is not possible.

Strangelove wrote: Rob just answer me honesty, do you sin? Yes If yes, do you seriously believe there will come a time in this temporal age where you wont sin at all? You dont sin if you are in the Spirit. YOu dont. the scriptures say you dont, adn i have witnesses it. Is it possible to stay in the spirit 100% ...well thats debated...But if you stay in the spirit, weather 100 years ago, or now...you dont sin. and praying with out ceasing adn fasting help you keep the flesh dead. SO as you can stay in the spirit... Is it a Christians mission to become COMPLETELY sinless and perfect....in this age?Mission? Our mission is to obey and please our master and king.

Look Doc, I NEVER ment to make it seem like i was a Holyness, perfect creature. I DO sin. We shouldnt though, and we shouldnt live our lives like sin is an inevitablity.(whetherit is or it isnt...we shouldnt live our life like it is) i We shouldnt, if you are(and only you would know) then thats something to be concerned about for yourself. Perfection should be what we WANT to achieve...this is a race, does a proffesional runner go into the race thinking "Well...Im not going to run my best today, becasue i know perfecton is unatainable...and ill probably trip over my feet, so ill just run as best as i can without pushing myself to hard" We cant live life in a deafetest "sinner" attitude...do you see what i mean? Im not saying anyone here DOES this...im just saying dont. I know I have a habbit of falling into that type of attitude. I know however, that when im praying ALLOT! like ALlot Allot, i sin allot less(or maybe not at all...im not sure..i wont claim that though) it is CRUCIAL that especially in this time that we stay in constant prayer, and (yes zone, as you feel called) fasting. However you will never feal called to fast if you arent asking God for and about anything. Anyway, im sure you guys know this...im not trying to be a teacher, or a preacher, just a friend, a brother sharing what i beleive God to be telling me. Pray about it. either way, I love you guys.

love you BROTHER ROB

Here this how i kinda see it

All i was saying was that we need to continue doing as we should.

In My opinion(ill state it that way) Salvation is an end result.

Once you are Born again, you receive the spirit, FOR salvation.

...I think of the holy spirit as the life boat of God. your not saved while your in the life boat...you are no longer on the sinking ship...which is GOOD, but you not saved...you are Being saved,as long as you are IN the life boat you can call yourself Saved. Nothing can brake this life boat, or pull you out of it. there is a forcefeild around it. HOWEVER you are free to leave the lifeboat at anytime.
You know the life boat is where you should be...but all around there are other boats...in those boats are temptations(even nice apearing ones...bt will raise pride, or what have you) You can jump into these other boats(sin) you can ALWAYS jump back(repentance) but if you never jump back, you are no longer in the life boat, you CAN at any time go back into the life boat...but if you dont its YOUR choice...if you thne jump back into the life boat, and stay in it untill the end, then you reach the other side.

Again...maybe this is what you are saying...and we are just misunderstanding each other.

KingdomSeeker wrote:

Grace AND faith AND salvation, JESUS is FREE, and FREELY comming down from Heaven, the bread of Life, the manna from heaven.

Jesus will never leave you. God wont, his spirit wont.

But Then WHY is there a theme of Continuing, not falling away?

Maybe im reading this all wrong. But my original point was that, GOD wont leave. But he doesnt stop you from going. Satan has no power so he cant pull you away. But he can get you to sin, and keep sinning(which still technicaly doesnt keep you from God, if you repent) and then in that Sin(with out repenting) YOU can walk away, and go after the flesh, so that if Jesus does come back(or you die) and sees you going after the flesh Especially after knowing his grace and mercy, then you are no longer under his provision YOU removed yourself. Yes?

Im not saying anyone does this...Im just saying IT IS possible, you are saying it is not possible.

But cant you see how everything you say here is just a whirlwind of contradiction?

Jesus will keep us and nothing can take us away from him but you can fall away from him but no one will or can do it but its possible....but no one will???

HUH?

Adstar wrote:I have never seen a calvinist moved from calvinism.
And i don't expect to see any movement here.

The only ex-calvanists i have ever run into are athiests.


Such is life.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I dont know anything about calvinism. I just read and believe these scriptures.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)

You did not choose Me, but I chose you (John 15:16)

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out (John 6:37).

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39)


If anyone wants to comment on these verses then be my guest. If anyone can show how these verses DONT show that we are God's sheep forever, no matter what....then I'll be moved. Till then, I'm Jesus' forever. What a great feeling!

Strangelove wrote:

But cant you see how everything you say here is just a whirlwind of contradiction?

Jesus will keep us and nothing can take us away from him but you can fall away from him but no one will or can do it but its possible....but no one will???

HUH?

YOU. Its UP to You. if YOU want to get out from the provision of the holy spirit YOU can. YOU.

see the difference?