The "Coming" of Jesus Christ

The "Coming" of Jesus Christ

Matt. 16:27, 28, For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to His deeds. "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matt.24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Rom. 13:12, “The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.”

Rom. 16:20, “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”

I Cor. 7:29 and 31, “The time is short. This world in its present form is passing away.”

I Cor. 10:11, “These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.”

I Tim. 6:14, “Keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 10:37, “In just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.”

James 5:7, “Be patient until the Lord’s coming.”
James 5:8, “The Lord’s coming is near.”
James 5:9, “The judge is standing at the door.”

I Peter 4:7, “The end of all things has drawn near.”

I John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Rev. 22:6, 7, "And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; ... the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly....

Rev. 22:10, 12, And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Rev. 22:20, He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly," Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

IS CHRIST "COME" OR HAS HE NOT "YET" COME?

Mat 28:20 ...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you:

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The word "coming" in Greek = "Presence" in the scriptures following .
The only two places where "Parousia" is properly translated "presence" is 2 Cor 10:10 and Philipians 2:12

The rest of the time it is inaccurately translated into the word "Coming", which, unfortunately in our eshatological "futurizing" society today, conveys to our minds that Jesus is "coming" as though He is NOT ALREADY COME, or is NOT HERE "YET".
This is a "killer doctrine" that "witholds" the Ever "Present" Real Now-ness of His Holy Spiritual Presence in each man who Has Received Him, IS Receiving Him, and those who still "have yet" to "Receive" Him at His Coming.
He has has been "Coming"/Present within Faithful Believers steadily down through Time, WHEN MEN FAITHFULLY RECEIVE HIM IN HIS BURNING HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM "COMING".
It is not a calendar day future "coming" or "approaching" form of an event" That is False Doctrine to be Rebuked.

This is the Word of God. "COMING" = "PRESENCE" (parousia) in these verses;

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning (Light, not 'lightning) cometh out of the east, ("Son-Rise") and shineth even unto the west; (from that part of the world, to this part of the world, in the preaching of men) so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(1Co 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.)

(2Co 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;)
2Co 7:7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.

The "Presence" of Titus brought "consolation" and "comfort".
See John 14:26,29 John 15:26 for Jesus as comforter in His "Presence". Jesus IS the "Consolation" of Israel. Same exact usage of meaning.

Luke 2:25, And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (we should do a word study on 'consolation'... O.T. Promised... N.T. Fulfilled in "Receiving Christ")

Phi 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Paul was telling them of his desire to be "with them" (as opposed to "NOT being with them", but passed on from this world)

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

"Presence" (or "coming", as usually and unfortunately translated...)
is OPPOSITE of "Absence".

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Properly translated here in the Young's Literal;

(1Th 2:19) for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence?

"Presence" here is Strong's 1715 also translated "before" or "in front of" "at the feet of" or "in His Sight".
"Coming" here, as all preceeding verses, again, is to be understood specifically as "Presence".

So literally, "Are you not right in front of Jesus, at His feet, before Him, in His Sight, "AT HIS PRESENCE"?

My answer is a resounding YES!

1Th 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming (again, PRESENCE) is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(This describes ME, my "old man", the "carnal self" that is at emnity against God Rom 8:7 IF I am "carnally minded" instead having the "mind of the Spirit")

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
(a farmer harvests His Field, grain by grain, load by load, over time, as according to the ripening of the fruit from the watering of the Word...)
Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
(2000 years ago James said this... was He mistaken??)

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
(Things said by those who are BLIND to SEEING HIM NOW at His PRESENCE)

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(Yes, we should be aware of how fast our life goes, we should make HASTE to RECEIVE His PRESENCE... Now)

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Amen

This is quite incomplete, but enough to get going on I'm sure As we can see in reading the proper word, Jesus IS PRESENT. (not "coming")

That is why the second death has no power over us! For Christ in us, is Life Eternal. Death can't affect us.

Ok, bring on the praise! (or the opposing ideas, I'm good with it all)

Ok...I'm a fairly new Christian. I'm quite open to this.

Few questions though.

1) Is there a 'last day' of this age when judgement will occur?

2) Will God destroy this old Earth and create a new one...and heavens...literally?

3) Will there be a physical ressurection on the last day?

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Whats the meaning of this verse:

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

4) Is there a 'day of the Lord'?

1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My concordance translates the word 'coming' in that verse as:

G602
αποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Soooo...will everyone see Jesus coming or not?

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus seems to be telling us to watch:

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

And whats all this about:

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are you saying that all this stuff is metaphorical Brucey?

(Luke 12:36) And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

(Luke 12:37) Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

(Luke 12:38) And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

(Luke 12:39) And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

(Luke 12:40) Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

If he's coming at a time that we do not know.....surely this has to mean a future event??

Or is Jesus talking of His imminent death and return in the form of the Holy Spirit?

Hi Doc, I just love your heart my brother. It is pretty cool not having someone rip my beating heart out of my chest and stomp on it like what I can always expect at CF. I hug you my man.

And thanks for asking. It can take years for us to untangle ourselves from the futurism doctrine of dispensationalism invading the Christian world. The focus of dispensationalism is centered around a “future” coming of Jesus to the planet earth. This is because the word “coming” is “judgement” in some cases in the greek, and should never be associated with “parousia”. So we have to untangle that.
The most important thing is knowing that “Parousia” always relates to Christ with us now, as the above verses show. Judgement is a different word, a different story, a word that should never be translated “coming”.

1) Is there a 'last day' of this age when judgement will occur?

The last breath you or I will ever take in this flesh, is the “last day”. The term “last day” for judgement always means this in the New Testament. “No man knows that day”. We ALL know the day that Jesus “Comes” to us. I remember mine clearly. It was my new birth, being born from above. But the day of our death is that “judgement” that know man knows when it is to “come”. It is “on that day”, the Word that Jesus has been speaking all along, judges us. Life or death is then realized. It is at a man’s death that the sheep are divided from the goats. When the wheat is separated from the tares. Do we survive the death of our body? Then we are a sheep. Do we take the unending dirt nap? Then we were a goat and our life will have showed why in both cases.

2) Will God destroy this old Earth and create a new one...and heavens...literally

The word “literally” always throws me, since it isn’t a scriptural term and can never be known what it means in its ambiguity.
I say that spiritual things are “literal”. Someone else means something else. To me, spiritual things are the only things “real” (literal). Nothing of this old planet system heaven/earth junk is real, nor is there a future for that which is seen with carnal eyes. First that which is natural, then that which is spiritual. The invisible things of the spirit is our world. They are literal to me, whereas the physical “types” are nothing but “shadows”.

We are now alive though we were once dead. (literally lol) We are now translated out of that “old heavens and old earth” into the Kingdom of Life and Righteousness and Light and Love when we died. We are now in the New Heavens and Earth. I died in 1982. Christ is now my Life, raised from the dead. I live in His New Heavens and New Earth. So do you There is nothing of concern to me on this old planet anymore. It and its flesh and its works are passing away as old physical temporary stuff does.

3) Will there be a physical ressurection on the last day?

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

As we should know, Martha was quite wrong in her assumption of thinking it was “future”. Jesus was so distraught with people not understanding these PRESENT things of Himself that He wept. I still do. Jesus lovingly corrected Martha in the next verse;
(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus is pointing out to Martha that the resurrection isn’t an “event”.
He wants us to know that HE IS the resurrection. It was important to Him that we comprehend that “resurrection” is NOT an “event” someday on a calendar. That is what the dispensational futurists teach, what Martha was mistaken about. That is why He let Lazurus “fall asleep”.

Whats the meaning of this verse:

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I don’t know. I would have to have been there I guess. I can only guess it was the judahizers giving the Christians a hard time as always. I don’t see it as being “past already” whatever that means. Since Jesus IS the “resurrection”, it would be the same as saying that “Jesus is past already”, which doesn’t make any sense to me either. That places doubt that there was ever a “resurrected Jesus” I guess. I just don’t know for sure.

4) Is there a 'day of the Lord'?

1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Yes.
In 1 Cor 1:7 is a perfect example of confusion of the word “coming”. It is the greek word “Apocalypsis” and should never have been translated “coming”. It means “Revealing”. It is to be understood in light of related scriptures. That is why I posted that what I understand of the “end times” is summarized in this verse;
(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

My concordance translates the word 'coming' in that verse as:

G602
αποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Correct. The reason the word “coming” is listed is only because it was translated “coming”, even though in error over and over. Strong's always lists what the word was translated into, whether correctly or incorrectly. But it is an improper translation of the word that means “Revelation”. It doesn’t mean “coming”.


If he's coming at a time that we do not know.....surely this has to mean a future event??

In respect to your verses quoted of Luke,

Correct. I don’t know that future day my body expires and I see Jesus face to face.

Or is Jesus talking of His imminent death and return in the form of the Holy Spirit?


Those verses in Luke should inspire us to be ready TODAY as I see it. It is applicable to all men who read it throughout all time. People who are Christians, having received the Holy Spirit. They/we, are being exhorted by Jesus to continue in faith until that "last day".
Much of what Jesus said was to prepare His disciples to receive Him on Pentecost. But the majority of His preparations for us is timeless, applicable to all men down through time for the last 2000 years and also however many years are left "until the full number of saved Israel be come in out of the Gentiles"
If we aren’t now built upon the Rock, in love and righteousness, our house crashes down when our bodies die and that is our judgement.

(Heb 3:13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

(Rom 13:11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

The “coming” of Jesus Christ is the singular most important event that can occur to any one of us.
If we are standing around gazing up into Heaven awaiting Him instead of going into that upper room and receiving Him, we are being passed up.
He told us this while He was with us.
Then He ascended as He said He would, was glorified as He needed to be, so that He could come into each and every one of us in His Omnipresence.
When He “COMES” into each of us like this, each in our own time, it is personal and intimate. It is as a virgin Wife receiving Her Husband in the Marriage chamber. This is what the New Testament is all about. The New Covenant of Lawful Marriage to Jesus in the Life of Life and Liberty Eternal.
We make the answer Now.

(2Co 6:2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Blessings to you NOW TO DAY

hi Son.
so, according to this view (which i'm not accepting just yet), what happens to this old earth...does it just wither and decay on its own when the last man dies?

you stated it's not REAL. that's where you jumped ship i think Son. you'll have to convince me that this physical creation isn't and never was 'real".

i'm aware that we are going to a better place. but still.....

and has Jesus already created a new heaven and new earth that we are going to? or is that yet to be created?

and when did this happen? was this Rome or Jerusalem - is it past or happening now or future?

Rev 20
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

and this...when did this happen> is it allegorical or actual? past present or future?

Judgment Before the Great White Throne

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Son do you agree with wiki's Parousia?

New Testament usage
The word is used 24 times in the New Testament.^[10] Of these 5 uses refer to the coming of individuals: Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus (1Co.16:17), Titus (2Co.7:6) the physical "presence" of Paul himself (2Co.10:10, Php.1:26, 2:12), and a 6th use to the "coming of the lawless one"(2Thess.2:9). The other 18 times refer 17 times to the Second Coming of Christ, and in one case to the coming of the "Day of God" (2Pe.3:12).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parousia

Son of Israel wrote:The last breath you or I will ever take in this flesh, is the “last day”. The term “last day” for judgement always means this in the New Testament. “No man knows that day”. We ALL know the day that Jesus “Comes” to us. I remember mine clearly. It was my new birth, being born from above. But the day of our death is that “judgement” that know man knows when it is to “come”. It is “on that day”, the Word that Jesus has been speaking all along, judges us. Life or death is then realized. It is at a man’s death that the sheep are divided from the goats. When the wheat is separated from the tares. Do we survive the death of our body? Then we are a sheep. Do we take the unending dirt nap? Then we were a goat and our life will have showed why in both cases.

Ok, I'm gonna go along on this rollercoaster ride with you BruceyBabes. I'll go wherever it takes me.

So, judgement comes to each of us when we die? k....but...

(Jude 1:6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

(2 Peter 3:7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(2 Peter 2:9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

(Matthew 10:15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Anther one:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

...these verses seem to indicate a specific and general day of judgement....my beloved Brother.

Still got an open mind to this.

Hi Zone. If I ever jump ship, it will only be because I am swimming to Jesus
As you can see from the info I've given on the word "coming" in those scriptures, they are the greek "parousia" which means "Presence".
It should never have been translated "coming".
Wiki is only put together by every day individuals like what you meet at CF. You can't believe anything you read on Wiki above the Word of God in my opinion. So no, I don't "agree with wiki".
Wiki says, the word "parousia" MEANS "second coming". Who is WIKI to give enlightenment? Wiki is just repeating dispensational teaching. The word Parousia has absolutely no connotation as "second coming". It isn't very difficult to parse this out if one is interested.
In fact, the term "second coming" occurs as often as the other dispensational futurism terms such as "millenium" or "rapture" or "the great tribulation" ... never.
So wiki, when saying "second coming" in association with the word "parousia" is in total error.

Hey Doc,
(Bruceybabes lol. Hey Doc it hurts when I do this!)
The topic of "judgement" is a great topic all in all. I too, for nearly three years, kept trying to rectify the "presence" of Christ with "judgement" also as though one "has to be at the same "time" as the other. Matt 24 was especially trying until I realized that it is simply the account of AD 70 as also is the Book of Revelation. And as in both books, the "judgement" of God is spoken, then the gospel of salvation. Then more judgement, then more salvation. Life, death. Life, death. God always mixes His Blessings with judgement upon the flesh.
Why?
Because before we can receive the Blessings, we have to suffer the penalty of death and then the "judgement". "Judgement" is how we live our lives from the time of our baptism to the time of our last breath. We make the answer Now. That "last day" then, our fate is sealed by whether our life was as a sheep or a goat.
Before Jesus could enjoy the Glory, He had to suffer the death. Before we experience Christ's presence in us, we must die with Him and be raised up with Him. He has provided this for us as we walk in bodies of flesh, by giving us the rite of baptism.
Baptism is the beginning of judging and executing our flesh. Then after that is the continuance of our judgement of the flesh. Are we of Sodom? Are we of those messengers who left their first estate in Love of God in Numbers 16, to turn back to their own vomit as such? Are we as Pharoah and Egypt? Then we suffer that judgement right along with them. Are we as those who didn't receive the word of Christ that Noah spoke to them before the flood and were "taken" by the water and drowned? Then we suffer judgement identical to theirs. Which was/is, that "judgement in the last day". It’s pretty easy to see the judgement of the last day of those of Sodom and Gomorrah. We can read about it “when” it happened on that “last day”.
That is why those examples are brought up by Jesus and Peter and Jude and others. So we would "take heed" and enter into “judgement against the wicked” instead of being wicked and then partaking of their judgement right alongside with them”.
None of it is intended by God for us to fashion a doctrine of "futurism" of worldwide events.

Let's get to know "parousia/presence" of Jesus in us. The Blessings are incredible in knowing this meaning of the Lord to us. Then we can get into the word "bema/judgement". Suffice it to mention again, every man finds his own personal judgement at his last breath. In the other cases where judgement is spoken of, it is to "go the way of the world" into annihilation as our brother Tim has so expertly displayed in his scriptures on the “state of the dead”.

We are born into a corrupted society Doc, as you know.
Dispensationalism goes deep into our personal theology from a child. It is all around us. Man's religion of "futurism" substituted into the stead of Christ's "NOW ism" of "parousia"... How much we are deluded by it!
Anything we put into the future, aside from our "last day" when Jesus is "Apocalypsis" to us, is of the carnal mind and altogether an unprofitable delusion. If we still tend to believe that there is some kind of "physical" thing on this planet as "unfulfilled prophecy" it is just because we don't see it yet until our eyes are opened.
We tend to see God's fulfillment of things on this "planet" only because we are born blind to the "real things" of God. But we still look for it in the physical! That is why the carnal dispensationalists wholeheartedly swallow that those people who claim to be Israel in the middle east actually ARE Israel! But we know that is a delusion. We know WE are Israel. We can lose this forum website here for that one singular fact, if nothing else as you've pointed out.
The religion of "futurism" is quite definetly of "jewish fables" and we must extricate ourselves from it, as painful a delieverance that it can be.

The "real/literal" things of God are Spiritual and invisible and NOW in Eternity, and can only be seen once our eyes are opened. God prepares us for this from our becoming as a little child in Him at our beginning of our birth in Him. He gives us these physical types to prepare us to see the Spiritual reality of His immortal invisible Kingdom. That is why he gives us physical types, aka "shadows" in the temporary physical world to familiarize us of the eternal invisible things of God. Only the things of God are "real" or "literal" to me. Nothing else means a thing.
“Futurism” only means something to people who are still enslaved to some form of dispensationalistic futurism.

All physical things are temporary. We all know this as Bible students, unless we are dispensationalists. The old heavens and earth are passed away, replaced with our New Heavens and Earth of the New Creation in Christ. The "real/eternal" invisible Heavens and Earth. We are raised up out of baptism (the first resurrection) a "new creature" aka lit greek "new creation". Now in Heavenly places, no longer of this world, we are New Heavens and New Earth.

It took me years to see this my dears. I sure didn't expect to see this. I fought tooth and nail in fact after I did see it, because I couldn’t grasp that spiritual truth. I kept saying, "yeah but" and then attempt to force what I've been shown, back into my idea of "this planet fulfillment" like a good dispensational jew lol. So I have no illusions that anyone here will snap this up and believe it, lol, I sure hope not. I am nobody. Don't believe me, I twist no arms. But there it all is. Please read those "parousia" scriptures and discover the Ultimate Blessing realized,

(Luk 17:21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Blessings you wonderful siblings

PS, Since I posted this I’ve discovered some websites of some folk who understand these things as I do, who’ve done a lot better job than I of presenting it. But I recommend a personal endeavor. It is so much cooler when God reveals out of scripture than when another man gives me stuff. Nowhatimeanjellybean?

I must say I've never come across this view before Brucer. Is this whats known as full preterism?

It's fascinating my man. I'm not gonna consider myself a Dispy just yet, I mean..I dont really consider expecting a future phyical second coming and ressurection/judgement as being a disadvantage per se...

I'm not really rigid on my endtimes view and the 'Kingdom is within you' thingee and 'cometh not with observation' has made me think a little when I try and square that with a physical New Jerusalem with actual mansions and wotnot...

I know Jesus is with me...I have His Holy Spirit inside me, alls good...I'm not investing too much in my endtimes playbook as yet. Cam I be a partial preterist/ modified Amillenialist at the moment while we chat about this B-Man? I still kinda like the idea of Jesus actually coming back in Glory with every eye seeing Him.

I see the 'There shall not be left here one stone upon another' being about the destruction of the temple for sure. But the rest of Matt 24? Ya...I guess most of it makes sense.

So this verse...

(Matthew 24:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

...I guess you would say is not actually meant 'end of the world' but...more like uhm...end of the Jewish age? Correct?....if you wanted to tie it into AD70?

It may get a bit tricky here:

(Matthew 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Which Barnes Notes (having taken a Temple destruction view for all of this chapter) handles thus:


The sign of the Son of man - The "evidence" that he is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem. It is not to be denied, however, that this description is applicable also to his coming at the day of judgment. The disciples had asked him Mat_24:3 what should be the sign of his coming, and "of the end of the world." In his answer he has reference to both events, and his language may be regarded as descriptive of both. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or evidence of his coming was found in the fulfillment of these predictions. At the end of the world, the sign of his coming will be his personal approach with the glory of his Father and the holy angels, 1Th_4:16; Luk_21:27; Mat_26:64; Act_1:11.

All the tribes of the earth mourn - That is, either all the “tribes or people” of the land of Judea shall mourn at the great calamities coming upon them, or all the nations of the world shall wail when he comes to judgment. All the wicked shall mourn at the prospect of their doom, Rev_1:7. The cause of their wailing at the day of judgment will be chiefly that they have pierced, killed, rejected the Saviour, and that they deserve the condemnation that is coming upon them, Joh_19:37; Zec_12:12.

And they shall see the Son of man - The Lord Jesus coming to judgment. Probably this refers more directly to his coming at the last day, though it may also mean that the “evidence” of his coming to destroy Jerusalem will then be seen.

In the clouds of heaven - He ascended in a cloud, Act_1:9. He shall return in like manner, Act_1:11. “The clouds of heaven” denote not the clouds in heaven, but the clouds that appear to shut heaven, or the sky, from our view.
With power - Power, manifest in the destruction of Jerusalem, by the wonders that preceded it, and by the overturning of the temple and city. In the day of judgment, power manifest by consuming the material world 2Pe_3:7, 2Pe_3:10, 2Pe_3:12; by raising the dead Joh_5:29-30; 1Co_15:52; by changing those who may be alive when he shall come - that is, making their bodies like those who have died, and who have been raised up 1Th_4:17; 1Co_15:52; by bringing the affairs of the world to a close, receiving the righteous to heaven Mat_25:34; 1Co_15:57, and sending the wicked, however numerous or however strong, down to hell, Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46; Joh_5:29.

Great glory - The word “glory” here means the visible display of honor and majesty. This glory will be manifested by the manner of his coming Mat_26:64, by the presence of the angels Mat_25:31, and by the wonders that shall attend him down the sky.

So at best, Barnes has to give this verse a kinda dual prophecy feel. I dunno how you handle Matt 24:30 Bruce?

And in a similar way the next verse:

(Matthew 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For sure..'angels' can mean messengers that gather believers out of Jerusalem.....hmmm...dunno man>>? One end of heaven to the other really can only mean a big world event. I'd be interested to see your interpretation/explanation Mr.B.

Strangelove wrote:I'm not really rigid on my endtimes view and the 'Kingdom is within you' thingee and 'cometh not with observation' has made me think a little when I try and square that with a physical New Jerusalem with actual mansions and wotnot...

I know Jesus is with me...I have His Holy Spirit inside me, alls good...I'm not investing too much in my endtimes playbook as yet. Cam I be a partial preterist/ modified Amillenialist at the moment while we chat about this B-Man? I still kinda like the idea of Jesus actually coming back in Glory with every eye seeing Him.

I see the 'There shall not be left here one stone upon another' being about the destruction of the temple for sure. But the rest of Matt 24? Ya...I guess most of it makes sense.

So this verse...

(Matthew 24:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

...I guess you would say is not actually meant 'end of the world' but...more like uhm...end of the Jewish age? Correct?....if you wanted to tie it into AD70?

It may get a bit tricky here:

(Matthew 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Which Barnes Notes (having taken a Temple destruction view for all of this chapter) handles thus:


The sign of the Son of man - The "evidence" that he is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem. It is not to be denied, however, that this description is applicable also to his coming at the day of judgment. The disciples had asked him Mat_24:3 what should be the sign of his coming, and "of the end of the world." In his answer he has reference to both events, and his language may be regarded as descriptive of both. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or evidence of his coming was found in the fulfillment of these predictions. At the end of the world, the sign of his coming will be his personal approach with the glory of his Father and the holy angels, 1Th_4:16; Luk_21:27; Mat_26:64; Act_1:11.

All the tribes of the earth mourn - That is, either all the “tribes or people” of the land of Judea shall mourn at the great calamities coming upon them, or all the nations of the world shall wail when he comes to judgment. All the wicked shall mourn at the prospect of their doom, Rev_1:7. The cause of their wailing at the day of judgment will be chiefly that they have pierced, killed, rejected the Saviour, and that they deserve the condemnation that is coming upon them, Joh_19:37; Zec_12:12.

And they shall see the Son of man - The Lord Jesus coming to judgment. Probably this refers more directly to his coming at the last day, though it may also mean that the “evidence” of his coming to destroy Jerusalem will then be seen.

In the clouds of heaven - He ascended in a cloud, Act_1:9. He shall return in like manner, Act_1:11. “The clouds of heaven” denote not the clouds in heaven, but the clouds that appear to shut heaven, or the sky, from our view.
With power - Power, manifest in the destruction of Jerusalem, by the wonders that preceded it, and by the overturning of the temple and city. In the day of judgment, power manifest by consuming the material world 2Pe_3:7, 2Pe_3:10, 2Pe_3:12; by raising the dead Joh_5:29-30; 1Co_15:52; by changing those who may be alive when he shall come - that is, making their bodies like those who have died, and who have been raised up 1Th_4:17; 1Co_15:52; by bringing the affairs of the world to a close, receiving the righteous to heaven Mat_25:34; 1Co_15:57, and sending the wicked, however numerous or however strong, down to hell, Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46; Joh_5:29.

Great glory - The word “glory” here means the visible display of honor and majesty. This glory will be manifested by the manner of his coming Mat_26:64, by the presence of the angels Mat_25:31, and by the wonders that shall attend him down the sky.

So at best, Barnes has to give this verse a kinda dual prophecy feel. I dunno how you handle Matt 24:30 Bruce?

And in a similar way the next verse:

(Matthew 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For sure..'angels' can mean messengers that gather believers out of Jerusalem.....hmmm...dunno man>>? One end of heaven to the other really can only mean a big world event. I'd be interested to see your interpretation/explanation Mr.B.

docster.
it doesn't say the Kingdom of God is within you.

it says AMONG you, or in YOUR MIDST. meaning Jesus Himself was IT.
He had Come and was King. he was talkin' to the unbelievers (as usual).
'member He came lowly and riding on an ass.

as for not coming with observation, Jesus was RIGHT! none of them SAW it because they rejected Him. they were looking for a conquering king.

i still say literal visible appearing in Glory.

the rest is adding up.

Hi Zone,
You are in error dear sister, I am sorry to say it, but this is important for our glory!

(Luk 17:21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

"WITHIN" is greek "entos" (strong's 1787 εντος) and quite specifically and unequivically means "INSIDE". "Ev" is always "IN". "entos" is "within".

Zone, if you don't know that the Kingdom of God is within you, but think it is somewhere or sometime else, (futurism/dispensationalism) we really really need to talk my dear sister.
It was from that doctrine that I was saved. It was when I understood the Kingdom of God coming within me by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, is when I rushed to be baptized and saved and translated into the Kingdom of God.

Whoever doesn't believe this, believes what the Pharisees believed, which is why Jesus corrected them. They thought it was future physical Kingdom. They were wrong. So are you if you believe and look for a kingdom that "comes with observation". It will never happen.

Hey Doc

As you’ve mentioned Rev 1:7 a couple or so times I figured I better expound on that as it seems to be a contradiction for you.

(The universal reconciliation folks love that verse.)

In the O.T. Israel is given the repeated good news message that they would “see” the Coming of the Lord.

The key here is knowing who the clouds are.
The other key is knowing who it is who can “see”.
Both are covered totally in scripture.

(Heb 12:1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

(Pro 16:15) In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain.

(Isa 18:4) For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

(Isa 60:8) Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

(Jer 4:13) Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

(Eze 1:4) And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

(Eze 38:9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

(Dan 7:13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

(Psa 36:5) Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

(Psa 57:10) For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.

(Psa 68:34) Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.

(Psa 104:2) Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
(Psa 104:3) Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
(Psa 104:4) Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(Zec 10:1) Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

To make a point, here’s “clouds without water”;

(2Pe 2:17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

(Jud 1:12) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

But we clouds of His Water of Life, see this glory as in the clouds of our Temple bodies (sanctuary);

(Psa 63:2) To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Those “all” who can see Him, declare His glory

(Psa 97:6) The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

These are those ALL who “see”, those whose “eyes of the blind shall be opened” people;

(Isa 35:1) The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. (because of the water from the clouds)
(Isa 35:2) It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
(Isa 35:3) Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
(Isa 35:4) Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
(Isa 35:5) Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

The word that all flesh would see Him was specifically to Jerusalem Mt Zion;

(The universalists like this one too);

(Isa 40:5) And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

As you look in the next verses, He is speaking of Mt Zion/Jerusalem. It is always this way. Jesus is only sent to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. Those who confess being blind of them, are given to see WHO THEY are in Christ.

The entire earth knows about Jesus. But only that flesh whose eyes are opened SEE HIM COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF WITNESSES are the Israel of God.
It doesn’t “mean” every eye of every fetus that came to full term in the womb of a female human.

We know that only those who are given eyes to see, can see the Lord.

We know that Israel is only those who are given eyes to see as well as ears to hear.

Now then, when we get to Revelation, which talks about this same Israel saved, “every eye sees Him” as He “comes in the clouds”.

(Isa 62:2) And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

(Rev 3:12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

It is US! The Israel/New Jerusalem/Temple of our bodies “SEEING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS” the “every eye that sees”. (Those whose eyes aren’t opened sure never see the Lord. Ever.)

It is how the Lord has been coming for 2000 years now. In the clouds. The cloud of witnesses.

(Mat 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

WE are those of the Heavens;

(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is how we shower the earth with fruitful rain;

(Mat 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When the Lord comes in His Clouds of Glory, it is by Jesus disciples preaching the Kingdom of God unto all nations. Then is the “end”... (which is just around the corner I think).

The clouds of the Lord shower His Living Water;

(Joh 4:10) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

(Joh 4:14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

It is specifically His resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit in us that makes us clouds by which the waters go out from within our midst;

(Joh 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(Joh 7:39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This same element is in the epistles;

(Eph 5:26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

(Heb 10:22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

(Jas 3:11) Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
(Jas 3:12) Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

This water is one of the Three witnesses in the earth;

(1Jn 5:8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

It is the water we drink;

(Rev 21:6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

It then flows out from our Temple bodies as we preach the fruit of Christ;

(Rev 22:1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(Rev 22:2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So on it goes
We are the means by which the Lord comes in the clouds spreading the gospel by which every eye that is opened see Him.

It all has to fit, and it all has to be now, or else it means nothing at all. Just like dispensational futurism means nothing at all.

Blessings this day!
Bruce

Son of Israel wrote:2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I don’t know. I would have to have been there I guess. I can only guess it was the judahizers giving the Christians a hard time as always. I don’t see it as being “past already” whatever that means. Since Jesus IS the “resurrection”, it would be the same as saying that “Jesus is past already”, which doesn’t make any sense to me either. That places doubt that there was ever a “resurrected Jesus” I guess. I just don’t know for sure.

It looks to me like it means the error is thinking there is no future ressurection Bruce. That any ressurection that we Christians have is the spiritual one when the Holy Spirit enters us.

As these scholars seem to point out:

Gill

saying, that the resurrection is past already; and no other is to be expected; or that there was no future resurrection of the dead: their error was, as some think, that there is no other resurrection than that of parents in their children, who, though they die, live in their posterity; or than the resurrection of Christ, and of the saints, that rose at the same time; or rather, that there is no other resurrection than the spiritual one, or regeneration, which is a quickening of dead sinners, or the resurrection of them from the death of sin, to a life of grace

Clarke

Who concerning the truth have erred - They had the truth, but erred or wandered from it, saying the resurrection was already past, and thus denying the resurrection of the body, and, by consequence, future rewards and punishments; and this necessarily sapped the foundation of all religion: and thus the gangrene had, in reference to their unhappy votaries, a rapid and unchecked operation.

Barnes

Saying that the resurrection is past already - It is not known in what form they held this opinion. It may have been, as Augustine supposes, that they taught that there was no resurrection but that which occurs in the soul when it is recovered from the death of sin, and made to live anew. Or it may be that they held that those who had died had experienced all the resurrection which they ever would, by passing into another state, and receiving at death a spiritual body fitted to their mode of being in the heavenly world. Whatever was the form of the opinion, the apostle regarded it as a most dangerous error, for just views of the resurrection undoubtedly lie at the foundation of correct apprehensions of the Christian system.

And how do you handle this verse which seems to teach that we are to expect Jesus to come again bodily in the clouds:

(Acts 1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

agree doc.
i'm with you bruv

(Acts 1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He did. He came into His disciples at pentecost, Acts chapter 2. Just like He said He would. Its why He told them to gather in that upper room and await Him. His disciples received His Holy Spirit "water" and are the "clouds" as we've seen in scripture. The great cloud of witnesses. He came INTO/WITHIN them. It is how Christ comes to the world, "through the foolishness of preaching". His followers were sent into all the world as clouds with water as we've seen, and still are as we see. We've seen clouds 'without' water and we know them by name, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Baalim, etc. The Lord wasn't IN THEM.
But Paul, Peter, James, John etc, are filled with the Water of Christ's Holy Spirit and go forth as clouds as the latter rain as prophecied in those "LAST DAYS" of Acts 2 as Peter quotes Joel fulfilled in his quote.

As far as the different ideas men grasp at in trying to discern what Paul was dealing with in someone saying that "the resurrection is past already", it is all speculation and has nothing to do with anything I've put forth. I never said that "the resurrection is past". Nor do I anymore than those men you quoted have a clue what was meant either it appears. It certainly doesn't matter to me. It has nothing to do with what I presented.

What if someone were baptized into Christ tomorrow? How could the resurrection be "past" if people are still being raised up in the resurrection of Christ? It is a silly idea to think the resurrection is past, whatever that means.
The resurrection of Jesus is the ONLY way we are raised up into newness of Life. What happens to these mortal bodies at our death is moot. We already know that is covered in such scriptures as 1 John 3:2 or 1 Cor 15. But that isn't the topic of the "coming" of the Lord I am presenting. Let's not confuse ourselves here please! Let's just concentrate on the scriptures in which the Word "PAROUSIA" is contained if I may stress again...

I've done what I can. This is a topic of great Blessing. I've put a lot of energy into presenting it so that the questions don't come up. Every question presented by you or Zone has already been addressed prior in the presentation so all I can really do is re-send you back to my post. There is a lot of verses there that you need to read and become familiar with so that we can get on the same page. There isn't ever going to be another verse pop up somewhere that disagrees with the verses I presented so I heartily recommend dealing with the clear verses first that contain the word Parousia which is my subject, before getting into those verses using different words that seem to be futuristic. In any case, only the Lord can reveal in this as anything, so I leave it to Him and ya'll
Blessings you dears!

Son of Israel wrote:(Acts 1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He did. He came into His disciples at pentecost, Acts chapter 2. Just like He said He would. Its why He told them to gather in that upper room and await Him. His disciples received His Holy Spirit "water" and are the "clouds" as we've seen in scripture. The great cloud of witnesses. He came INTO/WITHIN them. It is how Christ comes to the world, "through the foolishness of preaching". His followers were sent into all the world as clouds with water as we've seen, and still are as we see. We've seen clouds 'without' water and we know them by name, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Baalim, etc. The Lord wasn't IN THEM.
But Paul, Peter, James, John etc, are filled with the Water of Christ's Holy Spirit and go forth as clouds as the latter rain as prophecied in those "LAST DAYS" of Acts 2 as Peter quotes Joel fulfilled in his quote.

As far as the different ideas men grasp at in trying to discern what Paul was dealing with in someone saying that "the resurrection is past already", it is all speculation and has nothing to do with anything I've put forth. I never said that "the resurrection is past". Nor do I anymore than those men you quoted have a clue what was meant either it appears. It certainly doesn't matter to me. It has nothing to do with what I presented.

What if someone were baptized into Christ tomorrow? How could the resurrection be "past" if people are still being raised up in the resurrection of Christ? It is a silly idea to think the resurrection is past, whatever that means.
The resurrection of Jesus is the ONLY way we are raised up into newness of Life. What happens to these mortal bodies at our death is moot. We already know that is covered in such scriptures as 1 John 3:2 or 1 Cor 15. But that isn't the topic of the "coming" of the Lord I am presenting. Let's not confuse ourselves here please! Let's just concentrate on the scriptures in which the Word "PAROUSIA" is contained if I may stress again...

I've done what I can. This is a topic of great Blessing. I've put a lot of energy into presenting it so that the questions don't come up. Every question presented by you or Zone has already been addressed prior in the presentation so all I can really do is re-send you back to my post. There is a lot of verses there that you need to read and become familiar with so that we can get on the same page. There isn't ever going to be another verse pop up somewhere that disagrees with the verses I presented so I heartily recommend dealing with the clear verses first that contain the word Parousia which is my subject, before getting into those verses using different words that seem to be futuristic. In any case, only the Lord can reveal in this as anything, so I leave it to Him and ya'll
Blessings you dears!

ok Son.
you've put a lot of work and love into your posts, i'm going to go back over them until i understand (not guaranteeing i'll agree, but i you have vast knowledg of the Word, and i love you)
zonest.

Son of Israel wrote:As far as the different ideas men grasp at in trying to discern what Paul was dealing with in someone saying that "the resurrection is past already", it is all speculation and has nothing to do with anything I've put forth. I never said that "the resurrection is past". Nor do I anymore than those men you quoted have a clue what was meant either it appears. It certainly doesn't matter to me. It has nothing to do with what I presented.

What if someone were baptized into Christ tomorrow? How could the resurrection be "past" if people are still being raised up in the resurrection of Christ? It is a silly idea to think the resurrection is past, whatever that means.

Sorry to labour on this point Bruce but...would you say that your personal ressurection from death is in the past already?

If there is no actual bodily second coming of Christ I could also do with an explanation of these verses:

(1 Peter 4:12) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
(1 Peter 4:13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

(James 5:7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

(1 Peter 1:13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

(Colossians 3:4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

(1 John 2:28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

(1 John 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Still keeping an open mind......kinda?

It’s ok Doc I enjoy it actually.
Zone you are Noble!

Doc,I can only stress again that the question comes from the same idea that Martha was mistaken about, thinking that the resurrection was “dispensational”. Of a different “time” than the PRESENT. She was mistaking that it was a “future event”.
That is what “dispensationalism” is. Other time frames.
Martha relegated the resurrection to a “time frame” not present. Until then, it was “future” because of O.T. hope. But no longer, because the O.T. hope is fulfilled in Christ. The resurrection was then and there.
But Martha still thought that the “resurrection” was yet to be in some “future” dispensation.
She was wrong in her concept and made a false statement as a result.

Anyone who thinks the resurrection is a “past” or a “future” event, is a “dispensationalist” and doesn’t hear what Jesus is saying.

Jesus corrected Martha when she thought the resurrection was;

1) an event
2) was in the future.

He corrected her with ultimate truth, and I simply repeat it here;

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus = resurrection.

PRESENT/ETERNAL TENSE.
in the greek it is called “punctiliar”, meaning something started at one point and continues forever.

Anywhere along that “forever” line of reality, people enter into “the first resurrection”. Which was when Christ came forth from the dead. It has been going on for 2000 years now. Your resurrection and my resurrection from the dead started at two different times on our personal calendar, yours more recently than mine as you’ve shared. But we have both been raised up in “that first resurrection” in Christ 2000 years ago. There is only ONE FIRST RESURRECTION. We read of it in the Gospels.

That is how I’ve entered into that first resurrection of Jesus;
His resurrection doesn’t stop, then start again lol. It is eternal.

I died in baptism, (Christ’s crucixion)

I was raised up out of the water, (Christ’s resurrection)

I received the Holy Spirit into me as the ASCENDED GLORIFIED RESURRECTED CHRIST COME. (which began at Pentecost)

Now I LIVE!

In His resurrection Life in Me.

Now.

Forever.

The second death, when my body dies, has no power over “me” now. It is then that I “see Him” in the Judgement determination of “Life”.

In the greek repeatedly, we have the words “Ex-anastasia Zoe” meaning “out-resurrection Life”. It is the Life of Jesus Himself dwelling in us. For we have come “out of the grave” when raised up in baptism. You know all the scriptures. Here is how Paul describes us Living in the Spirit of Christ Resurrected;

Young’s literal (Rom 6:3) are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?

We’ve died with Him. Then, as we are raised up,

(Rom 6:4) we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.

We walk in New Life!

(Rom 6:5) For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

In the greek it is especially clear that we walk in Ex-Anastasia Zoe, or “resurrection life” after sharing in His death.
We share in His death by crucifixion, illustrated by water baptism;

(Rom 6:6) this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

Raised up in His Life, we no longer serve sin.

We have died in the waters of baptism. Then we have been raised up in Newness of Life. Resurrection Life. CHRIST IN YOU. And HE IS eternal life. NOT AN EVENT. It is a state of being that is timeless. That is why we are comforted over and over that the grave has no power over us anymore.

If Christ is in me, and He IS the resurrection, then it isn’t an “event someday”. Are you with me so far? It is moment to moment Life In His Resurrection.

Your question was,

“would you say that your personal ressurection from death is in the past already?”

My answer is, from Christ’s point of view in His Word…
My resurrection life began in the past and I still Live in His “resurrection” Life now today, and I always will. When this body dies, that “second death” has no power over me, my “resurrection Life” lives right through physical death. Does that make sense? I rejoice in this every moment of every day! Wowzers.

I don’t look for ANYTHING else. This is final end time prophecy for ANYONE EVER who is in His resurrection life NOW;

(1Jn 3:2) beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;

Jesus = Resurrection Life.

As I’ve said, I was resurrected in Christ in the early 80’s, and I Live in His resurrection Life. I live in Jesus. I live in resurrection. I live in Jesus. I live in resurrection. I live in Jesus. I live in resurrection… It means the exact same thing.

Jesus = resurrection.

Now let’s ask your question substituting “Jesus” for “resurrection” and see if the question even makes sense…

“would you say that your *Jesus* is in the past already?”

See how the question is non-sensical? The question actually almost fits the strange idea of what was going on with the thessalonians.
How could my Jesus be in the past already? LOL!

To see with the mind of Christ is a revelation of scriptures shedding Spiritual revelation into us without attempting to comprehend it through carnal questions. We are to just let Him tell us, then reveal to us what He “means”. That’s all.

From a carnal standpoint, in this “space-time continuum” we try to force spiritual ultimatums into temporal timeframes. Then we frame a carnal question. By doing so, we will never ask the right questions and will never receive the right answers.

I’ve begun to suppose that it was the Sadducees who infiltrated the Thessalonian church, since they were the ones who didn’t believe in resurrection. Paul was overcoming that bad theology by telling the Thessalonians that it wouldn’t make sensce “to be baptised for the dead if there was no resurrection”… evidently those bad folk were saying that not only was the resurrection “past”, but also, as Paul was countering, “no resurrection”. It isn’t clear. But whatever was going on, it isn’t my issue. I’ll let someone smarter than me figure that out.

To answer another question you asked earlier Doc. The first Preterist I’ve met was LittlelambofJesus at CF not too long ago. I was immediately attracted to his writings because he comprehended all N.T. scriptures as the fulfillment of the O.T. scriptures. All that Jesus set forth to do, He did it and now, we are experiencing it. He did it all.

Where full Preterism doesn’t agree with scriptures is that He doesn’t see Christ coming at Pentecost. He sees it as AD 70 in its entirety. I only see AD 70 as Christ fulfilling His vengeance against the Babylonian whore Jerusalem as promised.
“Partial preterists” also see Jesus coming in AD 70, but allow for all sorts of personalized ideas of different prophecies as yet future. They are basically partial “futurists”.

I noticed Zone posted some fellow’s idea that there is still a future New Heavens and New Earth and a second coming. I would call that person also a “partial futurist”.

I don’t fit any of these camps since I see Christ’s Coming at Pentecost and dwelling in me which is the New Heavens and Earth. I only know a small handful of dear brothers and sisters who comprehend and worship Jesus in this as I do because of the difficulty in becoming altogether delivered out of futurism by knowing these things.

Any thing of “futurism”, robs us of what is Now.
If we think Jesus (aka “resurrection”) is to be relegated to a future time frame as an “event” utilizing man made terms like “second coming”, we are being robbed by the Jewish fables of dispensationalism.

That’s my story, and I’m stickin to it

Blessings in Christ Jesus the resurrection and the Life NOW TODAY dear ones!

Bruce

Strangelove wrote:If there is no actual bodily second coming of Christ I could also do with an explanation of these verses:

(1 Peter 4:12) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
(1 Peter 4:13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

(James 5:7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

(1 Peter 1:13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

(Colossians 3:4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

(1 John 2:28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

(1 John 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Still keeping an open mind......kinda?

Hey Doc!

Your last verse explains it all!

But to your question, since none of those scriptures suggests anything remotely akin of "a bodily second coming of Christ" there isn't much I can say except that they mean the same thing as;

(1Jn 3:2) beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;

"AS HE IS". First, what "body" does Jesus have now? Let's establish that.
We know that Jesus was "glorified". We know that He is IN US in this Glory, "forming us into His Image". We know that He is God, Everywhere present, all knowing, all powerful.

"WHO" and "HOW" and "WHERE" and everything else about God is who we are to be like after this flesh is put off, for God Himself is our inheritance"...

(Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Doc, do you think Christ has a different "body" other than this one spoken of over and over? Check it out;

(Eph 5:30) because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;

(Col 1:18) And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first,

(Rom 12:4) for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office,
(Rom 12:5) so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another.

(1Co 10:16) The cup of the blessing that we bless--is it not the fellowship of the blood of the Christ? the bread that we break--is it not the fellowship of the body of the Christ?
(1Co 10:17) because one bread, one body, are we the many--for we all of the one bread do partake.

(1Co 12:27) and ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

(Eph 1:22) and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him--head over all things to the assembly,

(Eph 1:23) which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all,

(Eph 3:6) that the nations be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in the Christ, through the good news,

(Eph 4:4) one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

(Eph 4:12) unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,

(Eph 4:16) from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.

(Col 1:24) I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,

(Col 3:15) and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful.

I know of no other body that Jesus comes in except for HIS BODY, which WE ARE.

When we see Him, after our flesh ceases to breathe, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump . We are changed into HOW HE IS NOW AND WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS. Such a Judgement is to sheep. So let's not be baaaaaad goats hehe.

Fun huh

Christians are referred to as His Body. Thats nice Bruce.

But I wonder if you could, just for fun , go through each one of my verses and explain how brethren..who are Christians and apparently have Christ in them, who are ABIDING in Him...can be waiting and watching for Him to appear, to be revealed.

Can you actually address each scripture plz. Thanks budski.

Son of Israel wrote:Doc,I can only stress again that the question comes from the same idea that Martha was mistaken about, thinking that the resurrection was “dispensational”. Of a different “time” than the PRESENT. She was mistaking that it was a “future event”.
That is what “dispensationalism” is. Other time frames.
Martha relegated the resurrection to a “time frame” not present. Until then, it was “future” because of O.T. hope. But no longer, because the O.T. hope is fulfilled in Christ. The resurrection was then and there.
But Martha still thought that the “resurrection” was yet to be in some “future” dispensation.
She was wrong in her concept and made a false statement as a result.

Anyone who thinks the resurrection is a “past” or a “future” event, is a “dispensationalist” and doesn’t hear what Jesus is saying.

Jesus corrected Martha when she thought the resurrection was;

1) an event
2) was in the future.

He corrected her with ultimate truth, and I simply repeat it here;

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus = resurrection.

Bruce...if Jesus wanted to correct Martha on this most important doctrine..then He would have said something like:

(Joh 11:25) NO! You silly woman., I am the resurrection , and the life: NOW! ....not on any future last day. There is no kind of ressurection to come.

As it is...I only see a confirmation in Jesus' words to Martha. No correction.

Son of Israel wrote:We have died in the waters of baptism. Then we have been raised up in Newness of Life. Resurrection Life. CHRIST IN YOU. And HE IS eternal life. NOT AN EVENT. It is a state of being that is timeless. That is why we are comforted over and over that the grave has no power over us anymore.

If Christ is in me, and He IS the resurrection, then it isn’t an “event someday”. Are you with me so far? It is moment to moment Life In His Resurrection.

I think its BOTH Bruce. So...its not like I'm missing out on the Christ in me thingee.

Son of Israel wrote:I don’t look for ANYTHING else. This is final end time prophecy for ANYONE EVER who is in His resurrection life NOW;

Are you joining us over here?:

The Error of Hymenaeus

Son of Israel wrote:Now let’s ask your question substituting “Jesus” for “resurrection” and see if the question even makes sense…

“would you say that your *Jesus* is in the past already?”

See how the question is non-sensical? The question actually almost fits the strange idea of what was going on with the thessalonians.
How could my Jesus be in the past already? LOL!

Ok so lets use the same logic in this peice of scripture:

(2 Timothy 2:18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that *JESUS* is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Lolz....as if anyone would make or try and preach an error like that. Everyone knew that either Christ is in us OR He is coming back for a second advent.

Can you join us in that thread please and explain if 'ressurection' means 'Jesus' in that verse too?

Son of Israel wrote:To see with the mind of Christ is a revelation of scriptures shedding Spiritual revelation into us without attempting to comprehend it through carnal questions. We are to just let Him tell us, then reveal to us what He “means”. That’s all.

Amazing that God would make all this stuff so difficult to understand that every single ancient Christian creed and every other Christian I've ever met got this wrong!

Can we use the word 'literal' instead of 'carnal'?

Son of Israel wrote:I’ve begun to suppose that it was the Sadducees who infiltrated the Thessalonian church, since they were the ones who didn’t believe in resurrection. Paul was overcoming that bad theology by telling the Thessalonians that it wouldn’t make sensce “to be baptised for the dead if there was no resurrection”… evidently those bad folk were saying that not only was the resurrection “past”, but also, as Paul was countering, “no resurrection”. It isn’t clear. But whatever was going on, it isn’t my issue. I’ll let someone smarter than me figure that out.

So you wont be joining us in that thread then? It seems like a damnable error that Paul is countering, I would say its everyones issue to get to the bottom of it.

Son of Israel wrote:To answer another question you asked earlier Doc. The first Preterist I’ve met was LittlelambofJesus at CF not too long ago. I was immediately attracted to his writings because he comprehended all N.T. scriptures as the fulfillment of the O.T. scriptures. All that Jesus set forth to do, He did it and now, we are experiencing it. He did it all.

Where full Preterism doesn’t agree with scriptures is that He doesn’t see Christ coming at Pentecost. He sees it as AD 70 in its entirety. I only see AD 70 as Christ fulfilling His vengeance against the Babylonian whore Jerusalem as promised.
“Partial preterists” also see Jesus coming in AD 70, but allow for all sorts of personalized ideas of different prophecies as yet future. They are basically partial “futurists”.

So...your not full preterist then? What exactly is the name of your view Brucey?

Son of Israel wrote:I don’t fit any of these camps since I see Christ’s Coming at Pentecost and dwelling in me which is the New Heavens and Earth. I only know a small handful of dear brothers and sisters who comprehend and worship Jesus in this as I do because of the difficulty in becoming altogether delivered out of futurism by knowing these things.

Any thing of “futurism”, robs us of what is Now.
If we think Jesus (aka “resurrection”) is to be relegated to a future time frame as an “event” utilizing man made terms like “second coming”, we are being robbed by the Jewish fables of dispensationalism.

Oh ok....there is no name for your system. Fair enough.

I still dont understand how I'm being robbed of anything. What am I missing out on if I believe in an endtimes bodily second advent? Lolz...I'm a DISPY!?

We've been linking the Earthly millenial reign to the talmud in recent threads and proving them to be Jewish fables. I wonder if you can do the same for a bodily, supernatural second coming of the messisah from heaven. As far as I know the talmud teaches the Messiach will be BORN on Earth and be totally human.

Well Docster, I was a "dipsy" when I had a futurist interpretation of scriptures. I didn't know it of course. It is always the natural first inclinations of people. The pharisees thought that too. Even Christ's disciples thought that in Acts one, until He made it clear in Acts 2 and the rest of the new Testament that it isn't a futuristic kingdom of earthly "natural" things.

And no, it isn't amazing at all that God said these things the way He did. He told us why;

(Mar 4:34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

If we want to know, He expounds all things to us privately. He opens our eyes to the scriptures in a private way. This stuff isn't for the blind;

(Luk 10:23) And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

(Luk 24:31) And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

(Luk 24:32) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

By the way, throw the talmud away. We need to get away from man's ideas. Remember, it is the Jews who financed scoffield's dipsy "future millenium" polluted ideas for their own "endtimes" delusion upon the world. Let us be delivered from that crap. It isn't becoming to a Christian to make reference to the talmud for any reason.

Curious though, since I've never met two people who agree on what a "bodily second advent" is and what happens then, what is your view on it?
Where will that happen?
When will that happen?
Why will that happen?
What is the "body" of this "bodily advent" of Jesus?!.
Is it flesh and blood?
What is the "advent". Is it like when He came in a "body" before?
Where does this supposed endtime "judgement" occur?
Is it visible to others?
Is it in the air?
On the earth?
Under the earth?
Somewhere out in space?
If we are to accept it as some kind of literal thing some "place", why don't we also accept "hell" as a "literal" place of eternal burning tortured folks with an antichrist and false prophet there screaming in agony also?
Why naturalize some things and not others?
Is it a pick and choose, mix and match of endtimes scenarios that anybody can jump in to with personal carnal ideas that fit them best? Is is also possible that is a big reason there are so many different religions is because they all argue over varying degrees of endtimes ideas?
And was there really a second shooter on the grassy knoll?

Since Christ lives within me, His Kingdom of God is within me, is He going to some day "pull out" of me and go somewhere else to do all this future bizarre sci fi stuff I'm hearing??
Since we know Jesus is "in Glory", Also knowing Jesus dwells within us, what purpose would He leave that glory in us, LEAVING US without glory (!!God forbid!!), for to re-inhabit some other body of some kind again?
Did He not get something right the first time? lol
Did He forget something?
Did He decide to completely overrule and ignore and bypass this basic tenant of scripture?;

(1Co 15:46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

ANYTHING that is "future and natural in theology" we know for an undisputed fact that it is a false dispensational interpretation. We can take that to the bank. That scripture can in fact, stand on its own to take down that idea.

You can use the word 'literal' if you like Doc. But I'll always ask you what you mean But I highly recommend against using an unscriptural term that can divert us from the Word. Such also as "earthly millenial reign". That also is a carnal connotation of terms that carries a complete package of "natural" error along with it.
So also is "second coming" an unscriptural term, carrying with it an entire encyclopedia of futuristic mix and match scenarios, each goofier than the next.

One more question,
What thing(s) of the Kingdom of God, did you at one time think was "natural" that you now know is "spiritual"?
Was it not a great revelation from Jesus guiding you in His word to reveal Himself to you in understanding that brought enlightenment? Or was it choosing a set of doctrines someone else wrote in a publishing at one time?
I have been attracted to know you Doc, because you have shown in your writings comprehension of spiritual things. Most dispensationalists ARE dispys because they can't comprehend spiritual reality and constantly get hung up on the "shadow type".
I understand that.
The very first thing I said when I began my presentation was that it took years for me to disseminate the information. I begged Jesus to know these things. Nobody else could give me a straight answer. But He did.
And I share that with you and all To Day
And again, I have no expectations about whether this is received. Only hope. It is a Blessing of Revelation of the Word of God of what was, what is and what is to come. And it is NOT a future bodily second advent.
I promise you.
Check it out
Loving you bro!
Bruce

Son of Israel wrote:By the way, throw the talmud away. We need to get away from man's ideas. Remember, it is the Jews who financed scoffield's dipsy "future millenium" polluted ideas for their own "endtimes" delusion upon the world. Let us be delivered from that crap. It isn't becoming to a Christian to make reference to the talmud for any reason.

Wait...what?! We've been showing the source of false teachings and JEWISH FABLES using the talmud. You completely ignored my question. Show me how a future bodily ressurection of the messiah and judgement is a Jewish fable please.

Son of Israel wrote:Curious though, since I've never met two people who agree on what a "bodily second advent" is and what happens then, what is your view on it?
Where will that happen?

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(Revelation 1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

In the clouds/air?

Son of Israel wrote:When will that happen?

(Matthew 13:39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

(Matthew 13:40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

(Matthew 13:49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


The end? Which is the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Son of Israel wrote:Why will that happen?

Lolz...huh? Because thats what scripture clearly teaches. (to me and every other Christian I've met....'cept for you!)

Son of Israel wrote:What is the "body" of this "bodily advent" of Jesus?!.
Is it flesh and blood?

It's something every eye will see. So it will be made up of stuff that is visable in the Earthly relm obviously, Dunno if you want the chemical composition or...?...?...?

Son of Israel wrote:What is the "advent". Is it like when He came in a "body" before?

It's like Him being revealed in the air in Glory just like scripture says.

Son of Israel wrote:Where does this supposed endtime "judgement" occur?

The only clue I can find is the GWT which seems to be in Heaven/Space.

Erm..I'll go for......Heaven.

Son of Israel wrote:If we are to accept it as some kind of literal thing some "place", why don't we also accept "hell" as a "literal" place of eternal burning tortured folks with an antichrist and false prophet there screaming in agony also?
Why naturalize some things and not others?

I DO accept hell as a real place but not where peeps are tortured forever but destroyed.

Son of Israel wrote:
Is it a pick and choose, mix and match of endtimes scenarios that anybody can jump in to with personal carnal ideas that fit them best? Is is also possible that is a big reason there are so many different religions is because they all argue over varying degrees of endtimes ideas?

Well, yeah I guess it is pick and choose. Using discernment and the whole of scripture. The varying ideas about endtimes I dont think is a big deal as long as folks get the basic doctrines correct.

Son of Israel wrote:
Since Christ lives within me, His Kingdom of God is within me, is He going to some day "pull out" of me and go somewhere else to do all this future bizarre sci fi stuff I'm hearing??

I'll go with...no....he's not going to pull out of you. I think Jesus can be inside you in spirit and bodily come in the clouds at the end. No biggie.

Son of Israel wrote:Since we know Jesus is "in Glory", Also knowing Jesus dwells within us, what purpose would He leave that glory in us, LEAVING US without glory (!!God forbid!!), for to re-inhabit some other body of some kind again?
Did He not get something right the first time? lol
Did He forget something?
Did He decide to completely overrule and ignore and bypass this basic tenant of scripture?;

It doesnt look like we agree on what that basic tenate of scripture is. Your on one side and pretty much everyone else is on the other.

Son of Israel wrote:
ANYTHING that is "future and natural in theology" we know for an undisputed fact that it is a false dispensational interpretation. We can take that to the bank. That scripture can in fact, stand on its own to take down that idea.

I'm not subscribing to that blanket statement. Sorry. Paul is simply talking about the rebirth of believers not about EVERYTHING EVER.

Son of Israel wrote:
You can use the word 'literal' if you like Doc. But I'll always ask you what you mean But I highly recommend against using an unscriptural term that can divert us from the Word. Such also as "earthly millenial reign". That also is a carnal connotation of terms that carries a complete package of "natural" error along with it.
So also is "second coming" an unscriptural term, carrying with it an entire encyclopedia of futuristic mix and match scenarios, each goofier than the next.

The word 'unscriptural' is an unscriptural term. Plz dont use it. Also futuristic, scenario and uhm....goofier.

Son of Israel wrote:
One more question,
What thing(s) of the Kingdom of God, did you at one time think was "natural" that you now know is "spiritual"?
Was it not a great revelation from Jesus guiding you in His word to reveal Himself to you in understanding that brought enlightenment? Or was it choosing a set of doctrines someone else wrote in a publishing at one time?

It was the bible? I guess they were doctrines written and published by the disciples of Christ?

Son of Israel wrote:
I have been attracted to know you Doc, because you have shown in your writings comprehension of spiritual things. Most dispensationalists ARE dispys because they can't comprehend spiritual reality and constantly get hung up on the "shadow type".
I understand that.
The very first thing I said when I began my presentation was that it took years for me to disseminate the information. I begged Jesus to know these things. Nobody else could give me a straight answer. But He did.
And I share that with you and all To Day

*sigh* well...I just refuse to believe that God's Word is so complex that only one person on Earth understands it properly. I was attracted to your writings at first because you seemed to have a great understanding of judaization and stuff...but...I'm afraid all of this is way out in left field.

Son of Israel wrote:
And again, I have no expectations about whether this is received. Only hope. It is a Blessing of Revelation of the Word of God of what was, what is and what is to come. And it is NOT a future bodily second advent.
I promise you.

You seem confident. Certain even. That always makes me wary.

Take care Bruce.

Son of Israel wrote:
By the way, throw the talmud away. We need to get away from man's ideas. Remember, it is the Jews who financed scoffield's dipsy "future millenium" polluted ideas for their own "endtimes" delusion upon the world. Let us be delivered from that crap. It isn't becoming to a Christian to make reference to the talmud for any reason.
Bruce

BRUCE!
Jesus referred to the Oral Traditions and the Leaven over and over.
i plan to continue to expose whats in that mess, since its being used against us - thats the source of all this junk.
no way i'm not going to keep watching what they teach and believe....one BIG reason is to be able to pull a poor soul from that fire if i can.
zone

Doc your being silly now.
Zone, above, I said not to use the Talmud as Doc referred to prove end time theories.
I'm really surprised with you Doc.
OK, time to move on. Take care.
In love always,
Bruce

Son of Israel wrote:Doc your being silly now.
Zone, above, I said not to use the Talmud as Doc referred to prove end time theories.
I'm really surprised with you Doc.
OK, time to move on. Take care.In love always,
Bruce

Bruce you're leaving?

Son of Israel wrote:Doc your being silly now.

What? I answered all your questions.

Son of Israel wrote:Zone, above, I said not to use the Talmud as Doc referred to prove end time theories.

I was proving how eroneous end times views are rooted in the talmud. Showing how they are possible jewish fables.

Son of Israel wrote:I'm really surprised with you Doc.

For being 'silly' or for not swallowing full preterism without a fight?

Son of Israel wrote:OK, time to move on. Take care.
In love always,
Bruce

Ok..bye then Bruce. It was.....interesting.

Here in the southern usa the most vocal if not the most in number are they who espouse the imminent pre trib rapture of the saints.  But one tiny question (among a host of others) leaves them speechless.  It is this:  How could Jesus have come back in an imminent pre trib rapture between the time Jesus told Peter he would die by crucifixion and the day Peter was laid in the grave?  See John 21:18,19, and II Peter 1:14,15.