Does Our Soul/Spirit Go to the Lord When We Die?

Timotheos wrote:I believe that the error of Hymanaeus was that he said our resurrection has already happened in a "spiritual" way. Kind of the same hooey we are hearing all the time now. "Your spirit is resurrected when you die, and that spirit lives forever in heaven."

I've never been much comforted by the funeral saying, "you are never really dead if you are in the hearts of the living." It's a cheap way of denying the resurrection. If Jesus doesn't raise us up alive when He returns, what are we doing this for? If Christianity is for this life only, we are to be pitied more than anyone else.

hi Tim.
does the spirit return to The Father upon death? or are you saying we remain in the grave until the resurrection?
sorry for not getting what you're saying.
zone

I don't see the evidence for a disembodied spirit that goes to heaven when we die. I think we are dead until we are resurrected alive again by Christ. I think we remain in the grave until the resurrection.

I think it was difficult for people to imagine that we will truly be alive again after death, so they imagined that part of us (a soul) will leave our bodies and float to heaven. This idea became so popular that now I am a heretic for saying that there is "merely" a resurrection from death on the last day.

Timotheos wrote:I believe that the error of Hymanaeus was that he said our resurrection has already happened in a "spiritual" way. Kind of the same hooey we are hearing all the time now. "Your spirit is resurrected when you die, and that spirit lives forever in heaven."

Is it just the 'spirit lives forever in heaven' bit that you have a problem with Timo? Coz I agree, we have to get our glorified bodies first. But when we die our spirit is commended to Christ no?

(Philippians 1:22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
(Philippians 1:23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

(2 Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(Acts 7:59) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

I know you've done this topic to death (p...p...p...pun) so you'll have some useful insight brudder.

i don't think you're a heretic Tim. i think we're all just trying to come to the truth.

are these actual believers/martyrs? or is it allegorical in some way?

Revelation 6

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

also:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Numbers 16:22
But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"

Psalm 146:4
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.



Barne's on Ecclesiastes 12:7

The spirit - i. e., The spirit separated unto God from the body at death. No more is said here of its future destiny. To return to God, who is the fountain Psalm 36:9 of Life, certainly means to continue to live. The doctrine of life after death is implied here as in Exodus 3:6 (compare Mark 12:26), Psalm 17:15 (see the note), and in many other passages of Scripture earlier than the age of Solomon. The inference that the soul loses its personality and is absorbed into something else has no warrant in this or any other statement in this book, and would be inconsistent with the announcement of a judgment after death Ecclesiastes 12:14.

then there's elijah who didn't die, and was taken to heaven:

2 King2 2:1
Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.

and enoch:

Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

and here are Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration:

Luke 9
The Transfiguration

28Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. 30And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure,^b which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. 34As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One;^c listen to him!” 36And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

I don't want to try to talk anyone out of their belief in human spirits. I just don't see the evidence for this in the bible.

Timotheos wrote:I don't want to try to talk anyone out of their belief in human spirits. I just don't see the evidence for this in the bible.

?

could you expand on that Tim...don't know what you mean.

if somebody brings forth truth, i'll recognize it. it may take awhile, but hopefully i will...

speak Tim, please

I'm so tired.

Spirit in greek is pneuma, and it means breath or wind. Soul in greek is psyche and it means something like the livingness of you. It is illogical to think of your livingness living on without a body to do the living. Dead bodies don't breathe, they don't have breath, so there is no "spirit" in them. The spirit can't leave the body, because the spirit is a function of the lungs, diaphram, etc.

God has life in Himself and can give life to whomever He pleases. We don't, so any life we have is a gift from God. The wages of sin is death right? Adam and Eve sinned, and then there was death in the world. Eventually they died. But Jesus said that He will raise up the dead (who are in their graves) on the last day, and He will give them life. This time, it will be eternal life for all who have had their sins forgiven. All who haven't accepted forgiveness of their sins will still have the penalty of death hanging over them. They cannot receive eternal life, because the wages of sin is death.

zone wrote:i don't think you're a heretic Tim. i think we're all just trying to come to the truth.

are these actual believers/martyrs? or is it allegorical in some way?

Revelation 6

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants^c and their brothers^d should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I think these guys sitting under the altar are part of John's Vision. John is trying to reveal something to us, and I don't think that it is the fact that there are spirit men hiding under the altar in heaven. (Sorry for the sarcasm, I hope it was mild) I think, maybe, perhaps, (see my wiggle words?!) John is trying to encourage christians who are being persecuted.

ETA: I should have said John is trying to reveal something to the churches he wrote to.

Timotheos wrote:I'm so tired.

Spirit in greek is pneuma, and it means breath or wind. Soul in greek is psyche and it means something like the livingness of you. It is illogical to think of your livingness living on without a body to do the living. Dead bodies don't breathe, they don't have breath, so there is no "spirit" in them. The spirit can't leave the body, because the spirit is a function of the lungs, diaphram, etc.

God has life in Himself and can give life to whomever He pleases. We don't, so any life we have is a gift from God. The wages of sin is death right? Adam and Eve sinned, and then there was death in the world. Eventually they died. But Jesus said that He will raise up the dead (who are in their graves) on the last day, and He will give them life. This time, it will be eternal life for all who have had their sins forgiven. All who haven't accepted forgiveness of their sins will still have the penalty of death hanging over them. They cannot receive eternal life, because the wages of sin is death.

ok. gotcha.
thanks.
i'll ask another question but answer it later when you're not tired.

so no one is with the Lord right now?

zone wrote:

ok. gotcha.
thanks.
i'll ask another question but answer it later when you're not tired.

so no one is with the Lord right now?

I don't know.
What did Jesus mean when He said "those who are in their graves will hear my voice and come out?" If they are with Him in heaven, why are they in the grave ready to come out at His call?

What did He mean when He said to the Popular Girl at the well, "God is Spirit and those who worship Him will worship in Spirit and in truth?"

I don't know what to think.

Timotheos wrote:
I don't know.
What did Jesus mean when He said "those who are in their graves will hear my voice and come out?" If they are with Him in heaven, why are they in the grave ready to come out at His call?

Maybe it was just His way of saying "The dead will appear" in a way peeps could relate?

....without going into the actual mechanics of where the physical remains are and where the soul/spirit is located?

Possibly at the second coming, those souls with Christ...immediately enter their newly raised glorified bodies...and it would indeed seem like those in their graves would come out.

If we contain Jesus, who is our Life, then this whole entire topic quietly slinks away.

They waited for the resurrection and the life in the O.T.

The resurrection and the life came;

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;

So why do we wonder if we have "resurrection life"?

He never leaves us nor forsakes us. He is with us always. He has sworn it with an oath. What is the question now?

We aren't "some other spirit" when our body dies to make us wonder what happens to the spirit in us blah blah blah.

We are Christ in us. He is the Eternal Holy Spirit of our Life. He is "who we are". When our body dies, it doesn't affect the Spirit of our Life, who IS CHRIST IN US THE HOPE OF GLORY. How many times does Christ need to be resurrected anyway?? Every time somebody's body dies?

Our body dying is the second death which has no power over us.

(Rev 2:11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Good news indeed

So really, what is the question anymore?

me again!
the question is....will i see Jesus?
i love you bruce, but i hope you're not The Lord's eyebrow.

i want to see Jesus.

I don't know what the Lord's eyebrow analogy is zone, or why you wouldn't want me to be it, whatever that means.

You can see Jesus now.
You will see Jesus when your body croaks as He is when you are like Him.

I promise

In the meantime, let us not be these people;

(Act 28:27) For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest, haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

But let's be these people until the last day;

(2Co 4:6) Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Here is an article by a teacher I admire, Greg Albright.
http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/ptmupdate/022211/1.html

I think he is right on, but I am still not sure of the intermediate state of souls in heaven. erm, they may be in heaven, I just don't know. Click the link, he says this better than I can. All of PTM is really good.

Timotheos wrote:Here is an article by a teacher I admire, Greg Albright.
http://www.ptm.org/uni/resources/ptmupdate/022211/1.html

I think he is right on, but I am still not sure of the intermediate state of souls in heaven. erm, they may be in heaven, I just don't know. Click the link, he says this better than I can. All of PTM is really good.

thank you Timo....looks good so far.