The Spirit of Babel (reality behind the scene)

Babel was the dividing of language which gave rise to religion, culture and tribes "And the Lord said behold, the people is one, and they have all one language"......... Gen11:6

Satan's whore, Mystery Babylon will cause all the people to 'speak in unity' in one (ecumenical spiritual language) in adoration of the Image of the beast. Rev13:8,15

The proponents of ecumenism say that in the new unification, it would not matter which God you worshipped just as long as you worshipped an image representing God. I do not believe that to be a literal Image to which a modern humanity renders worship, I see it as a 'spiritual image' established in the heart of men, The God of ones choice, even Self.

What most Christians seem to neglect or do not realise is that Babylon has not only evolved to be the Great economic power of the end-Times but that she is also very Religious. Listed among all her merchandise is the :Souls of Men" Rev18:13
In the doctrine of the sale of indulgences the souls of men are trafficked in Babylon.
The gods of ancient civilizations were always worshiped by imagery and always associated with the economical power of that civilization.

In every country in the world today, economic powers are holding meetings to establish Global systems with intent to Control the activities of every nation on earth.
All nations are in the grip/fold of Mystery Babylon. those who will not acknowledge her satanic highness and will not drink from the cup of her fornication, will suffer the same consequences, as did the Seed of the Woman in the dark Ages. Rev13:15

The beast has not changed; he has just faded into the background and still has all the powers of the "first beast" the power of the Lion, the Bear and the Leopard Daniel7

I agree Lou, the religious agenda is what the worldly powers are working towards. Money helps drive the agenda of course....its all connected.

Strangelove; Praise the Lord for agreement: sort of a rare thing these days!
Been in the wilderness for some 30 years now and loving it.....
Amen.

louthesaint wrote:
Babel was the dividing of language which gave rise to religion, culture and tribes "And the Lord said behold, the people is one, and they have all one language"......... Gen11:6

Satan's whore, Mystery Babylon will cause all the people to 'speak in unity' in one (ecumenical spiritual language) in adoration of the Image of the beast. Rev13:8,15

The proponents of ecumenism say that in the new unification, it would not matter which God you worshipped just as long as you worshipped an image representing God....

Yes!

Dude, you have got to listen to the Michael Heiser interviews on Gootube. Heiser shows scripturally exactly how ecumenism is in fact OT-style idolatry.

CCornelius wrote:
Dude, you have got to listen to the Michael Heiser interviews on Gootube. Heiser shows scripturally exactly how ecumenism is in fact OT-style idolatry.

From the look of his channel he seems rather....Missleresque?

Strangelove wrote:

From the look of his channel he seems rather....Missleresque?

Nothing like that. Heiser deals with history.

One of many passages Heiser writes about is Psalm 82, which reads,

1{A Psalm of Asaph.} God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

So God the Most high judges among the gods. This Psalm has been a big problem for those of us who believe there is only one God.

Mormons say this means people are themselves gods.
Atheists use this passage to assert that the Most High of the Bible is merely another mythical figure, presiding over a pantheon, like Zeus.

What Heiser accomplishes is to clear this verse up for evangelicals and add depth to biblical history following the Babel Tower disbursal.

When a Hindu henotheist says he must follow the god to which he is assigned, or the god will punish him, Heiser's answer is not "Oh, that's just a myth. Forget it and get on board with Christianity."

Instead, Heiser can tell the Hindu, "Yes, I believe you. A god was assigned to your people by the Most High. It's right here in the Christian Bible. Then the Most High condemned those gods. But the Most High also rescinded that assignment and bought mankind from those condemned gods with the blood of His Son Jesus.

There's a lot more to it than I write in this post, obviously. The Heiser interviews with Frank Turek are an excellent 101 on this subject. youtube DOT com/watch?v=ifNdJPgJATA

Heiser is not perfect. I disagree strongly with him on the age of the Earth, etc. Nonetheless, I'm tellin' ya, on this particular subject he's the only game in town. And he's killin' it.

CCornelius wrote:Nothing like that. Heiser deals with history.

One of many passages Heiser writes about is Psalm 82, which reads,

1{A Psalm of Asaph.} God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

So God the Most high judges among the gods. This Psalm has been a big problem for those of us who believe there is only one God.

Mormons say this means people are themselves gods.
Atheists use this passage to assert that the Most High of the Bible is merely another mythical figure, presiding over a pantheon, like Zeus.

What Heiser accomplishes is to clear this verse up for evangelicals and add depth to biblical history following the Babel Tower disbursal.

When a Hindu henotheist says he must follow the god to which he is assigned, or the god will punish him, Heiser's answer is not "Oh, that's just a myth. Forget it and get on board with Christianity."

Instead, Heiser can tell the Hindu, "Yes, I believe you. A god was assigned to your people by the Most High. It's right here in the Christian Bible. Then the Most High condemned those gods. But the Most High also rescinded that assignment and bought mankind from those condemned gods with the blood of His Son Jesus.

There's a lot more to it than I write in this post, obviously. The Heiser interviews with Frank Turek are an excellent 101 on this subject. youtube DOT com/watch?v=ifNdJPgJATA

Heiser is not perfect. I disagree strongly with him on the age of the Earth, etc. Nonetheless, I'm tellin' ya, on this particular subject he's the only game in town. And he's killin' it.

Blimey...even worse than Missler then.

Strangelove wrote:
Blimey...even worse than Missler then.

Well, okay, then we have some things to explain. For example, “elohim” in Psalm 82 cannot be a reference to the Trinity because God is berating them over how badly they have behaved. Christians say the plural form of “elohim” refers to the Trinity, and then educated Atheists rub that in our faces: Oh, really? Well, how come God is judging Himself?

Atheists can do that because they are not afraid to look squarely at a pantheon when they see it described. We Christians are afraid because we think it might undermine our doctrine.

We needn’t put up with that. What we need to do is read the Bible with historical perspective the ancients took for granted.

The usage of “elohim” is plural or singular depending on context. So we moderns take it as referring to the Trinity. And in fact that is correct. But “Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted: all of Alma Cogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Cogan”(Monty Python).

In the Bible all spiritual beings are referred to as elohim. When used in singular form, the word refers to God. When used plurally, it is used in reference to the Heavenly Host, dead (disembodied) people, cherubim, angels, fallen angels, etc.

For example, in our English translations, “elohim” is translated as “gods.” 1 Sam 28 reads,

13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

So what form is Samuel? The form of an elohim, translated “god.”

Over and over, elohim is used to reference any spirit with no body. Any unembodied spirit is an elohim, but only one Elohim is the Almighty Creator. When an Elohim is seen creating, it is always in context indicating singular usage. That means Almighty God, the Most High, the Creator.

When used in the plural, “elohim” is God plus His Heavenly Host, God’s spiritual entourage. Job 38, verses 6 and 7 say God laid the foundations of the Earth and all the Sons of God sang for joy. It’s those guys, God’s unembodied, Heavenly beings.

At Babel everyone got uppity with God. So He scattered them. Before the scattering of peoples at Babel, we see no idolatry. After that, idols are everywhere. People had become disinherited, kicked to the curb and turned over to lesser members of the Heavenly Host who are total screw ups. They didn’t want to cooperate with the Almighty, so fine. Get lost. It’s just like in 1 Corinthians 5:5, where Paul tells the church to hand bad apples over to the Devil.

The people scattered at Babel were thereafter under rule of other gods, outcasts of the Heavenly Host.

But God kept an ongoing relationship with Abram, by whose lineage God planned to buy back humanity from the devils to whom they now lawfully belong.

The NT refers to the “Ruler of this World,” meaning the Devil. Well, the Devil is indeed the ruler of everyone who, like him, is under the curse of death. Mankind joined the other team. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the conquering of that empire.

God doesn’t cheat. He could. He makes the rules. Whatever He does is by the book because the book belongs to Him. But God is making sure that everyone -- EVERYONE -- knows that He is correct, right down to the last legal nicety. At the End, there will no way to for anyone to argue that He was less than perfect in any way.

There’s nothing remotely heterodox about this view. It’s just standard Christian doctrine, only with the backstory included.

Most of us moderns don’t have the backstory. The ancients did; they understood this stuff because they were much closer to it chonologically. Heiser is fulfilling his role as an historian by clarifying details that have befuddled us. He’s not messing around with core salvation issues. That’s all the same. He is merely explaining elements of history that Sunday school shies away from.

If anything I've said here is wrong, please tell me. I want to know.

CCornelius wrote:
Well, okay, then we have some things to explain. For example, “elohim” in Psalm 82 cannot be a reference to the Trinity because God is berating them over how badly they have behaved. Christians say the plural form of “elohim” refers to the Trinity, and then educated Atheists rub that in our faces: Oh, really? Well, how come God is judging Himself?

Christians say?

I would never read that Psalm and think God is judging the trinity. That's absurd. I've never had an atheist bring up this chapter and rub it in my face.

I undestand Heisner has sold a lot of books. It looks to me like he profits from creating a strawman and then offering a key of knowledge to solve the issue.

Classic gnosticism really.

Strangelove wrote:
Christians say?

I would never read that Psalm and think God is judging the trinity. That's absurd. I've never had an atheist bring up this chapter and rub it in my face.

I undestand Heisner has sold a lot of books. It looks to me like he profits from creating a strawman and then offering a key of knowledge to solve the issue.

Classic gnosticism really.

(The link button doesn't work, and I've tried every means I can think of to get around the no-links restriction, so I've put in the names of articles.)

Well, no. That is not Gnosticism at all.

Gnosticism is the belief that Jesus came to save mankind from the psycho murderer god of the OT. Gnosticism teaches that God the Creator is a being named Yaldabaoth, the son of a feminine divinity named Sophia. In the Gnostic view, the Creator is insane and a mistake made by his mother. By extension, the created universe is a horrible mistake made by a lunatic god.

That's why Gnostics believe the flesh is inherently bad: Creation was never supposed to happen.

So, no, sorry, but that's just wrong.

Yes, Christians who deal with scripture in translation do say the word elohim refers to the Trinity. They resort to this because they know elohim is plural. Here are a whole bunch of Christian links saying just that:

"[Elohim] is used not to indicate a belief in many gods but to emphasize the majesty of the one true God. He is the God of gods, the highest of all. Christians may recognize in this plural form a hint of the Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" -- What Is Elohim? Biblical Meaning of God's Name -- link you cannot have

"Many trinitarian apologists will tell us that the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is plural because it shows that God is a trinity. For example: 'Among Trinitarian Christian writers it is [often] seen as evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, a plurality in the Godhead.' -- Examining the Trinity -- link you cannot have

"Whatever distinctions Scripture later reveals between Elohim, his Word, and his Spirit, they should not be taken as distinctions between the one God and something that is not God. They should be taken as distinctions within the one God himself." --Is the Trinity in Genesis 1? -- link you cannot have

"...[T]he term Elohim points to the infinite and incomprehensible essence of God, as well as to his multi-personal nature. -- Does Elohim Provide Evidence For God’s Uni-Plurality? -- link you cannot have


"The word Eloah, meaning "Mighty One," is the singular form. Elohim, meaning "Mighty Ones," is plural. And, indeed, there are two Mighty Ones, the Most High and the Word. But, collectively, as Elohim, the two are seen as one God." -- Elohim: The Plurality of God -- link you cannot have

So it is no straw man but a manifest fact that Christians say elohim means the Trinity. What these well meaning Christians are missing is that elohim is used in many other contexts to refer to any unembodied spirit.

Thus, God the Father, Son, and Holy spirit is properly referred to as "Elohim." And so are the shade of Samuel or any other dead man, the cherubium, the seraphim, Baal, Ra, a demon, ect.

This has nothing to do with doctrine. It has to do with grammar.

I'll let Monty Python say it again: “Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted: all of Alma Cogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Cogan”

in other words, elohim is the "universal affirmative" referred to by John Cleese, "but only some of the class of" elohim are God. Others of the class of elohim are the shade of Samuel, ect.

And yes, Christians get their butts kicked because of this inability to grasp a simple grammatical construction. Here is an example of that:

reddit -- link you cannot have


In this linked to debate, Christians fail to use the very simple observation that "elohim" is any unembodied being. There would have been no more to it. The debate would have been finished. They even invoke Heiser -- and then totally misunderstand him!

Here is Heiser's devastating critique of Mormon polytheism, which is free and which explain in more detail:

Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 1989–2011 -- link you cannot have

Well, grammar always came easily to me. Folks have been frustrated with my difficulty grasping math problems that were easy for them, so maybe the thing to do is let it go. It's sad, but at least some of them understand the basics:

1. Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. He was born in Bethlehem as predicted by prophecy.
3. His mission was to fulfill the law of God and pay the price for people like me who have failed to do so.
4. He rose from the dead, conquering death for all.
5. He sits at the right hand of God.
6. All power has been given to Him.
7. He will return and rule the Earth in person.

Well I'm a Christian, and I don't say.

And no one has ever rubbed it in my face. So as far as I'm concerned it's a straw man.