1 JOHN 1:8

1 JOHN 1:8

New International Version (©1984)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

New Living Translation (©2007)
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

English Standard Version (©2001)
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

International Standard Version (©2008)
If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we're not being truthful to ourselves.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And if we shall say we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If we say, "We aren't sinful" we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

American King James Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

American Standard Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Darby Bible Translation
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

English Revised Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Webster's Bible Translation
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Weymouth New Testament
If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts.

World English Bible
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Young's Literal Translation
if we may say -- 'we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;

the more i study apologetics; the more i listen to the lingo out there, the more distressing it is to hear this particular error. the longer i pay attention, the more i follow this error, i see it now as the single starting point of virtually all other errors.

ultimately i can not see any other destination than damnable heresy....it is evident that the people who were brought up in pragmatism and synergism may possibly never have heard the true Gospel.

this is more and more disturbing for me daily...i'm seeing all the sectarianism and bizarre cults pretty much stemming from this single issue. or at least its a common denominator.

can anyone who has REALLY been granted the Holy Spirit...Who testifies of all things relating to us and to Jesus Christ....can they REALLY openly declare they are without sin and still have the truth?

it seems completely incredible to me that anyone claiming to have been called to real salvation could stand on the ground that this verse is "satanic". yes, this is where these people go. they openly declare that anyone who would dare say what John said (under inspiration of The Holy Spirit!) is satanic, "making allowances for sin".

is John "making allowances for sin" or is he recording forever an extremely serious delusion?

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


it appears that after having deceived themselves, these souls then recognize each other, organize and are energized to go out to the churches and rail against the Holy Spirit's conviction and admonition in this verse; His teaching and inspiration concerning the condition of the Christian given to John in this verse.

God is Merciful and perhaps they'll be brought low and their eyes opened, but in the meantime i shiver to think how this error is effecting the new believer.

i reckon its really important to see if this verse means what it says....

i don't read any language other than English, so i have to rely on the study tools i have. if anyone actually reads and is fluent in the greek please correct anything you think is error.


King James Bible
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

http://biblelexicon.org/1_john/1-8.htm

....

KJV Lexicon

εαν conditional
ean eh-an': before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-)soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, (who-)so(-ever).

ειπωμεν verb - second aorist active subjunctive - first person
epo ep'-o: to speak or say (by word or writing) -- answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell.

οτι conjunction
hoti hot'-ee: demonstrative, that (sometimes redundant); causative, because -- as concerning that, as though, because (that), for (that), how (that), (in) that, though, why.

αμαρτιαν noun - accusative singular feminine
hamartia ham-ar-tee'-ah: a sin (properly abstract) -- offence, sin(-ful).

ουκ particle - nominative
ou oo: no or not -- + long, nay, neither, never, no (man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but.

εχομεν verb - present active indicative - first person
echo ekh'-o: (used in certain tenses only) a primary verb; to hold

εαυτους reflexive pronoun - third person accusative plural masculine
heautou heh-ow-too': him-(her-, it-, them-, also (in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons) my-, thy-, our-, your-) self (selves), etc.

πλανωμεν verb - present active indicative - first person
planao plan-ah'-o: to (properly, cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue) -- go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.;

και conjunction
kai kahee: and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words

η definite article - nominative singular feminine

ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

αληθεια noun - nominative singular feminine
aletheia al-ay'-thi-a: truth -- true, truly, truth, verity.

ουκ particle - nominative
ou oo: no or not -- + long, nay, neither, never, no (man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but.

εστιν verb - present indicative - third person singular
esti es-tee': he (she or it) is; also (with neuter plural) they are

εν preposition
en en: in, at, (up-)on, by, etc.

ημιν personal pronoun - first person dative plural
hemin hay-meen': to (or for, with, by) us -- our, (for) us, we.

http://interlinearbible.org/1_john/1-8.htm

...

<< 1 John 1:8 >>
1 John 1 Biblos Interlinear Bible

more context:

1 John 1
King James Version
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

http://kingjbible.com/1_john/1-8.htm

...

this appears to be getting more serious the greater the context.

some commentaries....

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
If we say that we have no sin - It is not improbable that the apostle here makes allusion to some error which was then beginning to prevail in the church. Some have supposed that the allusion is to the sect of the Nicolaitanes, and to the views which they maintained, particularly that nothing was forbidden to the children of God under the gospel, and that in the freedom conferred on Christians they were at liberty to do what they pleased, Revelation 2:6, Revelation 2:15. It is not certain, however, that the allusion is to them, and it is not necessary to suppose that there is reference to any particular sect that existed at that time. The object of the apostle is to show that it is implied in the very nature of the gospel that we are sinners, and that if, on any pretence, we denied that fact, we utterly deceived ourselves. In all ages there have been those who have attempted, on some pretence, to justify their conduct; who have felt that they did not need a Saviour; who have maintained that they had a right to do what they pleased; or who, on pretence of being perfectly sanctified, have held that they live without the commission of sin. To meet these, and all similar cases, the apostle affirms that it is a great elementary truth, which on no pretence is to be denied, that we are all sinners. We are at all times, and in all circumstances, to admit the painful and humiliating truth that we are transgressors of the law of God, and that we need, even in our best services, the cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ. The fair interpretation of the declaration here will apply not only to those who maintain that they have not been guilty of sin in the past, but also to those who profess to have become perfectly sanctified, and to live without sin. In any and every way, if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. Compare the notes at James 3:2.

We deceive ourselves - We have wrong views about our character. This does not mean that the self-deception is willful, but that it in fact exists. No man knows himself who supposes that in all respects he is perfectly pure.

And the truth is not in us - On this subject. A man who should maintain that he had never committed sin, could have no just views of the truth in regard to himself, and would show that he was in utter error. In like manner, according to the obvious interpretation of this passage, he who maintains that he is wholly sanctified, and lives without any sin, shows that he is deceived in regard to himself, and that the truth, in this respect, is not in him. He may hold the truth on other subjects, but he does not on this. The very nature of the Christian religion supposes that we feel ourselves to be sinners, and that we should be ever ready to acknowledge it. A man who claims that he is absolutely perfect, that he is holy as God is holy, must know little of his own heart. Who, after all his reasoning on the subject, would dare to go out under the open heaven, at midnight, and lift up his hands and his eyes toward the stars, and say that he had no sin to confess - that he was as pure as the God that made those stars?

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
If we say that we have no sin - This is tantamount to 1 John 1:10 : If we say that we have not sinned. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and therefore every man needs a Savior, such as Christ is. It is very likely that the heretics, against whose evil doctrines the apostle writes, denied that they had any sin, or needed any Savior. In deed, the Gnostics even denied that Christ suffered: the Aeon, or Divine Being that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus, according to them, left him when he was taken by the Jews; and he, being but a common man, his sufferings and death had neither merit nor efficacy.

We deceive ourselves - By supposing that we have no guilt, no sinfulness, and consequently have no need of the blood of Christ as an atoning sacrifice: this is the most dreadful of all deceptions, as it leaves the soul under all the guilt and pollution of sin, exposed to hell, and utterly unfit for heaven.

The truth is not in us - We have no knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus, the whole of which is founded on this most awful truth - all have sinned, all are guilty, all are unholy; and none can redeem himself. Hence it is as necessary that Jesus Christ should become incarnated, and suffer and die to bring men to God.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
If we say that we have no sin,.... Notwithstanding believers are cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, yet they are not without sin; no man is without sin: this is not only true of all men, as they come into the world, being conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity, and of all that are in a state of unregeneracy, and of God's elect, while in such a state, but even of all regenerated and sanctified persons in this life; as appears by the ingenuous confessions of sin made by the saints in all ages; by their complaints concerning it, and groans under it; by the continual war in them between flesh and spirit; and by their prayers for the discoveries of pardoning grace, and for the fresh application of Christ's blood for cleansing; by their remissness in the discharge of duty, and by their frequent slips and falls, and often backslidings: and though their sins are all pardoned, and they are justified from all things by the righteousness of Christ, yet they are not without sin; though they are freed from the guilt of sin, and are under no obligation to punishment on account of it, yet not from the being of it; their sins were indeed transferred from them to Christ, and he has bore them, and took them and put them away, and they are redeemed from them, and are acquitted, discharged, and pardoned, so that sin is not imputed to them, and God sees no iniquity in them in the article of justification; and also, their iniquities are caused to pass from them, as to the guilt of them, and are taken out of their sight, and they have no more conscience of them, having their hearts sprinkled and purged by the blood of Jesus, and are clear of all condemnation, the curse of the law, the wrath of God, or the second death, by reason of them; yet pardon of sin, and justification from it, though they take away the guilt of sin, and free from obligation to punishment, yet they do not take out the being of sin, or cause it to cease to act, or do not make sins cease to be sins, or change the nature of actions, of sinful ones, to make them harmless, innocent, or indifferent; the sins of believers are equally sins with other persons, are of the same kind and nature, and equally transgressions of the law, and many of them are attended with more aggravating circumstances, and are taken notice of by God, and resented by him, and for which he chastises his people in love: now though a believer may say that he has not this or that particular sin, or is not guilty of this or that sin, for he has the seeds of all sin in him, yet he cannot say he has no sin; and though he may truly say he shall have no sin, for in the other state the being and principle of sin will be removed, and the saints will be perfectly holy in themselves, yet he cannot, in this present life, say that he is without it: if any of us who profess to be cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ should affirm this,

we deceive ourselves; such persons must be ignorant of themselves, and put a cheat upon themselves, thinking themselves to be something when they are nothing; flattering themselves what pure and holy creatures they are, when there is a fountain of sin and wickedness in them; these are self-deceptions, sad delusions, and gross impositions upon themselves:

and the truth is not in us; it is a plain case the truth of grace is not in such persons, for if there was a real work of God upon their souls, they would know and discern the plague of their own hearts, the impurity of their nature, and the imperfection of their obedience; nor is the word of truth in them, for if that had an entrance into them, and worked effectually in them, they would in the light of it discover much sin and iniquity in them; and indeed there is no principle of truth, no veracity in them; there is no sincerity nor ingenuity in them; they do not speak honestly and uprightly, but contrary to the dictates of their own conscience.

Vincent's Word Studies
That we have no sin

Ὅτι that, may be taken merely as a mark of quotation: "If we say, sin we have not." On the phrase to have sin, see on John 16:22, and compare have fellowship, 1 John 1:3. Sin (ἁμαρτίαν) is not to be understood of original sin, or of sin before conversion, but generally. "It is obvious that this ἔχειν ἁμαρτίαν (to have sin), is infinitely diversified, according to the successive measure of the purification and development of the new man. Even the apostle John does not exclude himself from the universal if we say" (Ebrard).

Heathen authors say very little about sin, and classic paganism had little or no conception of sin in the Gospel sense. The nearest approach to it was by Plato, from whose works a tolerably complete doctrinal statement might be gathered of the origin, nature, and effects of sin. The fundamental idea of ἁμαρτία (sin) among the Greeks is physical; the missing of a mark (see on Matthew 1:21; see on Matthew 6:14); from which it develops into a metaphysical meaning, to wander in the understanding. This assumes knowledge as the basis of goodness; and sin, therefore, is, primarily, ignorance. In the Platonic conception of sin, intellectual error is the prominent element. Thus: "What then, I said, is the result of all this? Is not this the result - that other things are indifferent, and that wisdom is the only good, and ignorance the only evil?" ("Euthydemus," 281). "The business of the founders of the state will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which has been already declared by us to be the greatest of all - they must continue to rise until they arrive at the good" ("Republic," vii., 519). Plato represents sin as the dominance of the lower impulses of the soul, which is opposed to nature and to God (see "Laws," ix., 863. "Republic," i., 351). Or again, as an inward want of harmony. "May we not regard every living being as a puppet of the gods, either their plaything only or created with a purpose - which of the two we cannot certainly know? But this we know, that these affections in us are like cords and strings which pull us different and opposite ways, and to opposite actions; and herein lies the difference between virtue and vice" ("Laws," i., 644). He traces most sins to the influence of the body on the soul. "In this present life, I reckon that we make the nearest approach to knowledge when we have the least possible communion or fellowship with the body, and are not infected with the bodily nature, but remain pure until the hour when God himself is pleased to release us. And then the foolishness of the body will be cleared away, and we shall be pure, and hold converse with other pure souls, and know of ourselves the clear light everywhere, which is no other than the light of truth" ("Phedo," 67).

We find in the classical writers, however, the occasional sense of the universal faultiness of mankind, though even Plato furnishes scarcely any traces of accepting the doctrine of innate depravity. Thus Theognis: "The sun beholds no wholly good and virtuous man among those who are now living" (615). "But having become good, to remain in a good state and be good, is not possible, and is not granted to man. God only has this blessing; but man cannot help being bad when the force of circumstances overpowers him" (Plato, "Protagoras," 344). " How, then: is it possible to be sinless? It is impossible; but this is possible, to strive not to sin" ("Epictetus," iv., 12, 19).

We deceive ourselves (ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν)

Lit., we lead ourselves astray. See on Mark 7:24; see on Matthew 27:63, Matthew 27:64; see on Jde 1:13. Not only do we err, we are responsible for it. The phrase only here in the New Testament. For the verb as applied to deceivers of various kinds, see Matthew 24:4; Revelation 2:20; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 12:9; Revelation 20:3. Compare πλάνοι deceivers (2 John 1:7); πλάνη error (Jde 1:11; 1 John 4:6).

The truth

The whole Gospel. All reality is in God. He is the only true God (ἀληθινός John 17:3; see on John 1:9). This reality is incarnated in Christ, the Word of God, "the very image of His substance," and in His message to men. This message is the truth, a title not found in the Synoptists, Acts, or Revelation, but in the Catholic Epistles (James 5:19; 1 Peter 1:22; 2 Peter 2:2), and in Paul (2 Corinthians 8:8; Ephesians 1:13, etc.). It is especially characteristic of the Gospel and Epistles of John. The truth is represented by John objectively and subjectively.

1. Objectively. In the person of Christ. He is the Truth, the perfect revelation of God (John 1:18; John 14:6). His manhood is true to the absolute law of right, which is the law of love, and is, therefore, our perfect pattern of manhood.

Truth, absolutely existing in and identified with God, was also, in some measure, diffused in the world. The Word was in the world, before as after the incarnation (John 1:10. See on John 1:4, John 1:5). Christ often treats the truth as something to which He came to bear witness, and which it was His mission to develop into clearer recognition and expres​sion(John 18:37). This He did through the embodiment of truth in His own person (John 1:14, John 1:17; John 14:6), and by His teaching (John 8:40; John 17:17); and His work is carried out by the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13), sent by God and by Christ himself (John 14:26; John 16:7). Hence the Spirit, even as Christ, is the Truth (1 John 5:6). The whole sum of the knowledge of Christ and of the Spirit, is the Truth (1 John 2:21; 2 John 1:1). This truth can be recognized, apprehended, and appropriated by man, and can be also rejected by him (John 8:32; 1 John 2:21; John 8:44).

2. Subjectively. The truth is lodged in man by the Spirit, and communicated to his spirit (John 14:17; John 15:26; John 16:13). It dwells in man (1 John 1:8; 1 John 2:4; 2 John 1:2), as revelation, comfort, guidance, enlightenment, conviction, impulse, inspiration, knowledge. It is the spirit of truth as opposed to the spirit of error (1 John 4:6). It translates itself into act. God's true children do the truth (John 3:21; 1 John 1:6). It brings sanctification and freedom (John 8:32; John 17:17). See on John 14:6, John 14:17.

http://biblecommenter.com/1_john/1-8.htm

...


"Lit., we lead ourselves astray.
See on Mark 7:24; see on Matthew 27:63, Matthew 27:64; see on Jde 1:13. Not only do we err, we are responsible for it. The phrase only here in the New Testament. For the verb as applied to deceivers of various kinds, see Matthew 24:4; Revelation 2:20; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 12:9; Revelation 20:3. Compare πλάνοι deceivers (2 John 1:7); πλάνη error (Jde 1:11; 1 John 4:6)."

i deleted a series of rants last night, mainly because it felt like airing another forum's dirty laundry. but i need to be able to look at examples of the thinking of these people who are dwelling on this issue habitually, they're completely unbalanced.

but with all the jangling, it sounds biblical and people begin to absorb it - don't we all want to be pleasing to God and livingly righteously? yes we do...

so is there error in a statement such as below?:

ex:

"We as Christians cannot continue to live in sin. If this is what you really believe, then what is your argument? In fact what is the fruit of your message to me and other who believe we cannot continue "habitually sinning"? If this is what your truly believe, why would you tell someone who believes, I must obey God, repent of my sins, and not live in sin, and keep His commands, so I can go to heaven, that he is false, and believes in himself, and Not Christ? Why would you want to convince someone that they are sinning by believing they must obey God and repent of their sins because he told them to?"

.....

is this the Gospel?:

"I must obey God, repent of my sins, and not live in sin, and keep His commands, so I can go to heaven"

what's the heart of the problem repeatedly with these people?

where is Jesus in their teachings?

"he is false, and believes in himself, and Not Christ?"

Geneva Study Bible
{5} If we say that we have no sin, we {e} deceive ourselves, and the {f} truth is not in us.

(5) There is none but need this benefit, because there is none that is not a sinner.

(e) This fully refutes that perfectness of works of supererogation (doing more than duty requires, the idea that excess good works can form a reserve fund of merit that can be drawn on in favour of sinners) which the papists dream of.

(f) So then, John speaks not thus for modesty's sake, as some say but because it is so indeed.

People's New Testament
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. To say that we have reached a sinless state in which we no longer need the blood of Christ to cleanse us is a deception. This language is in square opposition to the claims of the Perfectionists of all ages.

insert popular perfectionist mantra:

when asked: "have you sinned, do you sin"?

the self-deceived with the holier-than-thou Pharisee 'preaching' says:

"I was double minded for many years until I came to a realisation of what the Gospel message actually was.

I was broken on the rock of Jesus Christ and I thus forsook all my known sin. I now live a crucified life daily not yielding my body to sin. I walk according to the Spirit yielding to its leading.

Jesus Christ saved me from being enslaved to sin and I am now, through His power, to walk in the light.

I still make mistakes and misjudgments and am growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, learning how to carry myself, make righteous judgment, and how to better approach people to learn and teach. Yet these mistakes and misjudgments are not presumptuous sins and I thus walk by faith in my Saviour Jesus Christ."

.......

same tired old blather. recall Sproul:

"An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

IF WE THINK WE ARE BECOMING PERFECT, THEN WE ARE FAR FROM BECOMING PERFECT.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance."

......

not yeilding the body to sin.
cool. now crucify all the ungodly thoughts and words.
tighten up that perfect obedience to God's perfect standard of daily, seamlessly, according TO LAW for the rest of your life....you still won't make it because of your past corruption.

since the cleansing of Christ through confession isn't needed by these guys, they're walking around with loads of unconfessed sin. piling up and piling up. unconfessed and unaknowledged.

what's wrong with their understanding of walking in the light?

1 John 1
Walking in the Light
5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

admitting and confessing sin, and receiving forgiveness and cleansing is PART OF WALKING IN THE LIGHT.

if you're NOT doing those things because you think you are without sin, you are not walking in the light, but are in darkness.

its pretty clear.

Wesley's Notes

1:8 If we say - Any child of man, before his blood has cleansed us. We have no sin - To be cleansed from, instead of confessing our sins, 1Jo 1:9, the truth is not in us - Neither in our mouth nor in our heart.

.......

WESLEY

https://christian-wilderness.forumvi.com/t483-wesley#6956

"...Tomkins quotes at length “a most extraordinary letter [from John Wesley] to Charles in 1766” in which “he bares his soul in the most bleak and moving way:”

In one of my last [letters] I was saying that I do not feel the wrath of God abiding on me; nor can I believe it does. And yet (this is the mystery), I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore I am only an honest heathen … And yet, to be so employed of God! And so hedged in that I can neither get forward nor backward! Surely there was never such an instance before, from the beginning of the world! If I ever have had that faith, it would not be so strange. But I never had any other evidence of the eternal or invisible world than I have now; and that is none at all, unless such as faintly shines from reason’s glimmering ray. I have no direct witness (I do not say, that I am a child of God, but) of anything invisible or eternal.

And yet I dare not preach otherwise than I do, either concerning faith, or love, or justification, or perfection. And yet I find rather an increase than a decrease of zeal for the whole work of God and every part of it. I am borne along, I know not how, that I can’t stand still. I want all the world to come to what I do not know (p. 168; italics mine)."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. The confession of sins is a necessary consequence of "walking in the light" (1Jo 1:7). "If thou shalt confess thyself a sinner, the truth is in thee; for the truth is itself light. Not yet has thy life become perfectly light, as sins are still in thee, but yet thou hast already begun to be illuminated, because there is in thee confession of sins" [Augustine].

that we have no sin-"Have," not "have had," must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still. Observe, "sin" is in the singular; "(confess our) sins" (1Jo 1:9) in the plural. Sin refers to the corruption of the old man still present in us, and the stain created by the actual sins flowing from that old nature in us. To confess our need of cleansing from present sin is essential to "walking in the light"; so far is the presence of some sin incompatible with our in the main "walking in light." But the believer hates, confesses, and longs to be delivered from all sin, which is darkness. "They who defend their sins, will see in the great day whether their sins can defend them."

deceive ourselves-We cannot deceive God; we only make ourselves to err from the right path.

the truth-(1Jo 2:4). True faith. "The truth respecting God's holiness and our sinfulness, which is the very first spark of light in us, has no place in us" [Alford].

Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
Verses 8-10

Here, I. The apostle, having supposed that even those of this heavenly communion have yet their sin, proceeds here to justify that supposition, and this he does by showing the dreadful consequences of denying it, and that in two particulars:-1. If we say, We have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us, v. 8. We must beware of deceiving ourselves in denying or excusing our sins. The more we see them the more we shall esteem and value the remedy. If we deny them, the truth is not in us, either the truth that is contrary to such denial (we lie in denying our sin), or the truth of religion, is not in us. The Christian religion is the religion of sinners, of such as have sinned, and in whom sin in some measure still dwells. The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. 2. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us, v. 10. The denial of our sin not only deceives ourselves, but reflects dishonour upon God. It challenges his veracity. He has abundantly testified of, and testified against, the sin of the world. And the Lord said in his heart (determined thus with himself), I will not again curse the ground (as he had then lately done) for man's sake; for (or, with the learned bishop Patrick, though) the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, Gen. 8:21. But God has given his testimony to the continued sin and sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient effectual sacrifice for sin, that will be needed in all ages, and to the continued sinfulness of believers themselves by requiring them continually to confess their sins, and apply themselves by faith to the blood of that sacrifice. And therefore, if we say either that we have not sinned or do not yet sin, the word of God is not in us, neither in our minds, as to the acquaintance we should have with it, nor in our hearts, as to the practical influence it should have upon us.

II. The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, v. 9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer's business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, v. 9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. 53:11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it.

amazing essay by Robert Candlish (PDF) on 1 John 1:8

http://archive.org/stream/firstepistleofjo01cand#page/56/mode/1up

...

this is a long treatise, in old english style.
but if you have time to read page 50 to 58 at least, per the subject 1 John 1:8, he touches upon not only the CONDITION for actually being permitted to, or welcomed to "walk in the light" - CONFESSION of our sin...

he discusses how it is this privilege - openess toward God, transparency toward Him regarding our sinfulness (the only possible way provided by God for us to "walk in the light and have fellowship with Him, even as He is in the light, since He is Light) that brings our assurance and joy and peace: confession of our faults and sins IN ORDER TO BE CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SO THAT WE MAY INDEED WALK IN THE LIGHT CLEAN!

"if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."


1 John 1
The Word of Life

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make oura joy complete.

Walking in the Light

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from allb sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

.....

its clear that John is warning against both the delusion that The Lord will simply overlook our sin without confession; AND that our claim to be without sin is as bad, since again there is NO CONFESSION and transparency (honesty) with Him!

so we see an unalterable CONDITION of walking in the light is that we do so in honesty and without hiding/shame/fear/lying about our condition, rather the condition is that we CONFESS our sin, trusting and believing that "the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." and "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

......

so, for those who claim to have mortified themselves, stopped all sin (yes, this is our goal and DOES become more and more within reach as we continue to confess and be honest with Father); this passage in 1 John is in DIRECT contradiction to their claims of "walking in the Spirit" or walking in the light BECAUSE THEY ARE WITHOUT SIN!

no, we are invited to walk in the light, to come out of darkness, showing that we are children of God, that we do not now fear Him, that we in fact BELIEVE HIM and TRUST Him and have faith in THE SHED BLOOD OF CHRIST and our ability to be cleansed when we are honest and confess in order to be continually cleansed.

thank You Father....thank you Jesus Our Lord and Our Redeemer.

......

i'm so pleased to belong to my Lutheran church.
Luther was just a man and far from perfect. but our services are Confessional - we confess that we are sinful, and seek cleansing every Sunday as a Body, and daily as christians in our prayers.

i like the HONESTY and openness of the Lutherans that we are relying upon the Righteousness of God for our salvation and our sanctification. make no mistake - continuing in the old ways is denounced, and we are expected to live the new life. but lutherans know we're all in the same condition - reliant upon THE GOD MOST MERCIFUL!

each Sunday, part of our liturgy is:

Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

this is so cool, i'm going to start a thread in Apologetics for it...simple english.
there's much more, but here's the part on 1 John 1:8, in context.


How can I be sure?
An Easy English Bible Version and Commentary (2800 word vocabulary) on the Book of 1 John

Chapter One
The Word of life (1 John 1:1-4)

v1 We declare this to you about the Word of life. The Word existed before the world began. This is what we have heard. We have seen it with our eyes. We watched it. We touched it with our hands. This is about the Word of life. v2 The person who gives life came. He showed this life to us. We saw it and we are witnesses to it. We declare to you that this is *eternal life. It was with the *Father. It has now appeared to us. v3 This is what we saw. This is what we heard. We declare it to you also. We want you to share in this life together with us. It really has united us with the *Father and with his son Jesus Christ. v4 We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

Verse 1
John wrote this letter about Jesus, who is the Word of life
The ‘Word of life’ is the *Lord Jesus. And the ‘Word of life’ also means the message of the *gospel. John wrote about the *Lord Jesus. And he wrote about the life that Jesus gives. This life is for those who believe. The Word produces life. This is about the good news of Jesus Christ who is the life.

The Word, that is the *Lord Jesus, always existed. He was alive before time and the world began. Christ and the message of life came from God. This was God’s purpose from before *creation. The *Lord Jesus came into the world to achieve this purpose.
John and those who were with him knew the *Lord Jesus. They had heard what he said. They had listened to what he taught. They were with him. They actually saw him. They watched him. They saw all that he did. They lived with him for 3 years. They knew that Jesus was a real human person.

Some people denied that God really came as a human person. But he did come. He is Jesus Christ. John says that they have had a real experience of him. Jesus Christ was God with them here on earth.

Verse 2
Jesus came from God to show us real life
The *Lord Jesus came from God. He became a real man. He showed us what real life is. Real life is life in the spirit. He has that life and he came to give it to us. This is *eternal life. God gives it to those who believe in his Son.

John was a witness to this life. The life was with the *Father. Jesus showed that life to us. John and those who believed in the *Lord Jesus saw this real life. They had received it. They proved that the message is true.

What they saw was *eternal life. God gives this life. John knew that he had this life now. And this life will never end. John wants to share this life with the readers of his letter. This life is in the *Lord Jesus. Those who know Jesus have this life.

The *Lord Jesus, who is life, was with God the Father. But he came to us and he showed us this life. These witnesses have received this life from God. *Eternal life comes from God the Father.

Verse 3
When we believe God’s message, we join God’s family
Those who first believed spoke. They described what they had seen. They repeated what they had heard. The Word of life (that is, Jesus) appeared to them. And we need to believe in him. They heard what he said. We too need to hear what he says. And we need to believe it. The message of life in the *Lord Jesus was not only for them. John declares it to those who read his letter. All people can now see and hear God’s truth in Jesus. To know Jesus is to receive the life that God gives by him.

The message of the *gospel is that people may believe in Jesus. Those who believe will receive *eternal life. That life comes from God. They will share the same life that John and his friends had. They will know that they have a new life with God. They also can become good friends by having the same life. They will join with John and his friends in the family of God.

This life unites Christians with God who is the Father. It unites them with Jesus the Son of the *Father. Jesus is one with the *Father. Therefore, he also is God as the Father is God. There is one God but three persons. The third person is the Spirit of God.

Verse 4
John wrote this letter as if he were an agent for all those other witnesses. ‘These things’ are all that is in the letter. He writes so that both he and the readers may have much joy. It would give them all much joy if they believed the message of the *gospel. The purpose of the letter is that the readers would share the same life as John and his friends. God gives this *eternal life to those who believe in his Son.

God is *light and we should walk in the *light (1 John 1:5-10)
v5 This is the message that we have heard from him. And we declare it to you. God is *light. There is no *darkness at all in him. v6 We may say that we share this life with God. But if we walk in *darkness, we are telling a lie. We would not be doing what is right and true. v7 Instead, we should live in the *light, as God is in the *light. Then we share in life with each other. And the blood of God’s Son, Jesus, washes all our *sins away.

v8 We may say that we have no *sin. If we say this, we lie to ourselves. There is no truth in us. v9 We must confess our *sins to God. If we do, he will be kind to us. He will forgive us all our *sins. And he is right to do so. He will make us *clean from all the wrong things that we have done. This is what he has promised to do. v10 We may say that we have not *sinned. But such words suggest that God has lied. Anybody who says this has not believed his word at all.

Verse 5
God is perfect. So people who know God must not do evil deeds.
John did not invent the message. He says that he received it from the *Lord Jesus. The *Lord Jesus taught those who were with him. He showed them how to know God. He then sent them to teach this to other people. In this way, these people may know God as well. This is the message that John heard from the *Lord. He declared that God is *light.
God is *light by nature. As light shines, so God shows himself. All light comes from God. God created it. John uses the word *light to mean all that is good, *holy and right. This message shows something about God’s character. God is good. He is always right, and *holy. God, who is *light, sees all things. We can hide nothing from him. John uses the word *darkness to mean evil acts, *sin and error. There can be nothing bad in God. He is perfect and he can do nothing wrong.

Some people may turn from the *light. They love *darkness more than the *light. This is because their actions are evil (John 3:19-21). There can be no *darkness in God. Those people who do evil acts cannot share life with God. Those who believe God must live in the *light.

Verse 6
People who do evil things do not share God’s life
John now shows how this message should affect our lives. In the next five verses, there are three false things that some people say (verses 6, 8 and 10). After each of these false things, John shows us what the truth is (1:7, 9; 2:1). The effect of what they say is that *sin does not affect them. So, it does not matter what we do. They say that they are united with God. But they continue to *sin.

The *Lord Jesus gives a new life to those who believe. This life is from God. This life is unity with God. But there can be no unity between *light and *darkness.

A person may say that he lives with God. But if that person does evil acts, then he lies. His actions are not right. Those actions are *darkness and not *light. That person is like someone who walks in *darkness. *Darkness and *light cannot be in unity. That person does not share the life from God.

The false teachers said that they walked in the *light. However, what they did were works of *darkness.

They did not do what was right. They did not obey the truth. John believes that the test of truth is not just belief. Truth is not only in what we say. Our belief will affect what we do. We show our belief in God by good and right acts.

Verse 7
God has provided a remedy for our *sins
There is a contrast here. The person who does the wrong things lives in *darkness. But the person who does the right things lives in *light. This is how God wants us to live. He wants us to believe the *gospel. And we should live to please him. God is *holy. He always does what is right. God is in the *light because he is *light. To live in the *light is to be true to God. This is to live in the same manner as God lives.

Real Christians live in the *light. They believe in the *Lord Jesus Christ. They all share the same life. This unity among Christians shows that they belong to God. They are united with each other. They are united with God. John desires that the readers will come into that same unity.

The word ‘blood’ here means the death of Jesus. The *Old Testament says that the life is in the blood. Jesus gave his life for us. By his death, Jesus has taken away our *sins. He removes all *sin from us. But we must believe in him. Nobody can be perfect while he is here on earth. But God forgives those who believe. He makes them *clean from all *sin.
God has made the remedy for our *sin. By this, he can make us *clean from all *sins. So, we can keep our unity with him. This remedy is the blood of his Son Jesus Christ.

Some people taught that the human Jesus was not the Son of God. They taught that the human Jesus died. However, they said that God the Son did not die. John makes it plain that Jesus as God the Son did die for our *sins.

Verse 8
People who deny their *sin are lying to themselves
Some people said that they did not need the *Lord to remove their *sin. They thought that they did not have any *sin. This is not true and is itself a *sin.
We may say that there is no *sin in us. That would be false. It would be to say that we are already perfect.

Those who say this have chosen to forget their *sin. They refuse to agree that all people have *sinned. It is human to *sin. They do not live by the truth that God has shown us. They deny the basic fact of their *sin. Truth as a principle of life is not in them. They do not share in the reality of God. Jesus showed us that God is the truth. The truth of God is not in these persons.

Verse 9
God forgives us when we confess our *sins
In contrast to them are those people who say that they have *sinned. *Sin is something that affects all our lives. But *sin does not have to spoil our unity with God. We should say that we have *sinned. We should confess our *sins to God. When we do so, God will forgive us.

God has promised to forgive us and he will keep his promise. He cannot just forget our *sin as if it was not there. He is good and *holy. *Sin cannot remain with him. He had to remove it from his people.

God achieved this by putting all our *sin on the *Lord Jesus. The *Lord Jesus took the punishment for our *sin. He died for this purpose. Now God can forgive those who confess their *sins.

God forgives our *sins and he makes us *clean as well.

We must confess all the *sins that we know about. Then God will forgive us. He makes us completely *clean. He takes from us all the wrong things that we do not yet know about. Those things that we do not know will not damage our unity with God.

Verse 10
People who deny their *sin do not believe God’s word
Some people say that they have not done anything wrong. They have not *sinned. But God says that all have *sinned. This is the reason that Jesus had to come. He came to die for the *sins of all people. If we had not sinned, Jesus would not have died. What God has said would not be true.

Those who say that they have not *sinned cut themselves off from God. They have not believed the word of God. They do not know the *Lord Jesus. They have not believed the truth of the *gospel. They cannot have the new life that the *Lord Jesus gives. He gives this life to those who trust in him.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/1john-lbw.htm

...


of special note at the end of that section: Arminianism is very unfortunate indeed. so is Perfectionism.

We can be confident that we have *eternal life
John is coming to the end of his letter. He gives his purpose for all that he has written so far. He wants all the Christians to be sure about life. They have the true life in Christ. He feels that they lack confidence about this. He wants them to know that they do have *eternal life. He wants to increase their trust and confidence in Christ.
*Eternal life is not just a future life that has no end. It is life of a better quality, which we can live now. We are sharing in the life of Christ.
To believe in the name means to trust the person. They trust Jesus who is the Son of God.

SIN
We should pray when another Christian *sins
Christians are not perfect and they do *sin. When we see a Christian *sin, we should pray about it. We have a duty in love to look after such a person. It should be our natural reaction to pray. This is for *sins that do not cause death.

The promise is that God will answer the prayer. He will give life to the person who has *sinned. He will forgive the *sin. There is a part of death in all *sin. *Sin in a Christian breaks the unity with the *Lord. That person needs God to forgive the *sin. Then the unity with the *Lord will return.

Death and life here refer to the spirit of the person. There is a *sin, which brings death to the human spirit. This *sin refuses to agree that Jesus is the *Christ, the Son of God. The person who does this *sin does not trust in Christ. He does not receive life from Christ. Such a person refuses to believe what the person knows to be true. To continue in this *sin will lead to death. John does not advise us to pray for those who do this *sin. He doubts that such prayer will have good results. He does not forbid such prayers. But he does think that they are a waste of time.

Verse 17
All wrong thoughts and actions are *sin
John has made a distinction between *sins. Some lead to death and some do not lead to death. This does not mean that some sins are worse than other sins. The false teachers may have taught that not all wrong actions are *sin. But all wrong thoughts and actions are *sin. All *sins are serious. We must not think that any are not bad.

Verse 18
God will help Christians not to *sin
Those who have been born of God are Christians. Those who become Christians must stop *sinning. They will not continue to *sin as they did in the past. This is the test of the truth in them. They hate *sin and they try to please God. It is not that they never fail. But they will not *sin as a manner of life.

Jesus the Son of God looks after his children. He will keep us safe and protect us from the devil. He will not allow *Satan to damage us. He will not let *Satan gain control over us. He will not let *Satan lead us back into *sin.


*Gospel