Re: Calvinism

by zone Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:33 pm

Timotheos wrote:I don't have a feeling for or against Calvinism.
I do have input on 2 Peter 3:9
I looked at the Byzantine NT and it contains the word ημας, God is patient toward us. But the USB4 and WH Greek NTs contain the word ὑμᾶς, God is patient toward you. I kind of like the Byzantine better, but many scholars prefer UBS4. The KJV Only crowd likes the Byzantine better, but they are (can I say the word idiots?). They only like the Byzantine because it is closer to the beloved Textus Receptus, not because the Byzantine Monks were more conscientious scribes.

YAY! LOVE YOU TIMO. Calvinism - Page 2 808784

we got a Greek Scholar in house.
perf!
hey doc & son you guys read hebrew?

by **strangelove** Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:09 pm

zone wrote:hey doc & son you guys read hebrew?

I can read it but that doesnt mean I understand what I'm reading ...Lolz....I speak it better.

Son.....ata yodaia ivrit?

by Son of Israel Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:10 pm

I believe in "predestination" of God too Doc.
But yeah, it is a knee jerk reaction of some to assume it means "Calvinism".
Calvin is the only reason why people have a problem with how God predestined things because he's an idiot (as well as a murderer).
He pushes it to a hyper ridiculousness for sure.

Strange how a murderer could take two verses out of Ephesians, that are beautiful otherwise, and turn the concept into a circus.

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Eph 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

by Son of Israel Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:15 pm

I don't read Hebrew Zone. I'm greek all the way. The LXX was the first century Bible and it was translated directly from the Old original Hebrew.
The Massoretic text is so full of changed jots and tittles that Jesus condemned, that it is pretty much worthless to go to for anything.
But all of the LXX quotes into the N.T. Koinea Greek are preserved nearly perfectly, and if not, it isn't the LXX, it is the N.T. Greek MS problems.

Off to breakfast, later taters Smile

by zone Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:25 pm

Three Common Objections to Election Addressed

Although it is certainly inexcusable, it is nevertheless to be expected that the world, lying in the power of Satan, should take offense at the doctrines of God’s free and sovereign grace in the gospel. But it is even less excusable, and certainly less understandable, that among professing evangelicals, the same sort of reaction is likely to occur.

True, evangelical Christians dress up their objections in different ways, viewing them as a vindication of God’s character, or even as an adherence to biblical truths; but the plain fact of the matter is that anyone whose eyes have been opened by the Spirit to understand the scriptures, if he is honest in his pursuit of biblical teaching, must admit that such foundational gospel principles as election are shouted in the clearest of terms throughout the entire gamut of scripture.

Hence, those Christians who are opposed to the doctrines (due to natural human ways of thinking), tend for the most part to skirt over exegetical and textual arguments, and immediately bring to bear certain logical arguments against the doctrines of Calvinism. This is not true of every non-Calvinistic Christian: but I think it is a fair observation for the bulk of Arminian Christianity in America.

From this group in particular, I have innumerable times heard the following three arguments against the precious and biblical doctrine of election: (1) God’s choosing us makes him an arbitrary and unjust dictator; (2) God’s choosing us destroys personal responsibility; and (3) God’s choosing us eliminates the motivation to evangelize the lost. In this brief article, I hope to demonstrate that these objections are not logical – and they are certainly not scriptural.

My desire is that these simple thoughts may be used by God to convince some of our dear Arminian brothers that their view of God is not biblical, and hence to give them a more accurate glimpse of the Lord in his sovereign majesty. Because to see him for who he is is to love him more deeply and passionately.
http://psalm45publications.com/articles/three-common-objections-to-election-addressed/#more-105

by ada Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:30 pm

JOHN CALVIN (orginally COHEN, then CAUIN, and finally CALVIN) WAS A CRYPTO-JEW
A crypto-Jew is a member of a Jewish community forced to convert to another religion and outwardly embracing it while secretly maintaining Jewish practices and contrary to general belief, Calvinism is of Jewish origin. It was deliberately conceived to split the adherents of the Christian religions and divide the people. Calvin's real name was Cohen and when he went from Geneva to France to start preaching his doctrine he became known as Cauin. In England, he became Calvin. Surprised? Don't be - this is just the tip of the iceberg!

The following from Watch Unto Prayer is quite interesting for those of you who follow the teachings of John Calvin which includes the "once saved, always saved" deception:

The Dominionists adhere tenaciously to the tenets of Calvinism or Reformed theology, which maintains that all of the end-time Bible prophecies were fulfilled by 70 A.D., with the destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, it only remains for the Christian Church to set up the Kingdom of God on earth before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The spiritual father of the Dominionists is Protestant Reformer John Calvin, who aspired to set up the “Kingdom of God” in Geneva, Switzerland during the Protestant Reformation. In his Fundamental Baptist newsletter, David Cloud has conveyed what the Kingdom of God looked like in Geneva:

“Calvin was vicious toward his enemies, acting more like a devouring wolf than a harmless sheep. Historian William Jones observed that ‘that most hateful feature of popery adhered to Calvin through life, the spirit of persecution.’ Note how he described his theological opponents: ‘...all that filth and villainy...mad dogs who vomit their filth against the majesty of God and want to pervert all religion. Must they be spared?’ (Oct. 16, 1555). He hated the Anabaptists and called them ‘henchmen of Satan.’ Four men who disagreed with him on who should be admitted to the Lord’s Supper were beheaded, quartered, and their body parts hung in strategic locations in Geneva as a warning to others. He burned Michael Servetus [at the stake] (for rejecting infant baptism and for denying Christ’s deity). Calvin wrote about Servetus, ‘One should not be content with simply killing such people, but should burn them cruelly.’” (FBIS, “The Calvinism Debate”)

How does a “Reformed” minister justify burning heretics at the stake, with the same ferocity the Catholic Popes exterminated entire heretical sects? There is evidence that the Rosicrucian societies, who were the resurfaced Templars in Great Britain, infiltrated the Reformation where they operated as agents provocateurs. By founding new “Reformed” denominations, these agents acted in most un-Christian ways in order to give Protestant Christianity a reputation for violence, just as their agents had formerly done so effectively in the Catholic Church. (See: The Reformation: Rosicrucian Connections) One New Ager, Jeff Nisbet disclosed their game plan in Atlantis Rising magazine:

“In one fell swoop, the Christian world was cleft in twain. No longer would Rome be able to raise great armies from its subject nations to crush heresies wherever the Papal finger pointed. There was no longer just one big boy on the block. Another had moved in. The mightiest church the world had ever known had been ‘divided’ and ‘conquered’.

“But the Reformed Church would not be allowed to remain squeaky clean. The life of Mary’s grandson, James VI, the first...king of both Scotland and England, would be threatened by a plot hatched by ‘witches’ on Halloween, 1590. The celebrated but trumped-up case of the ‘North Berwick Witches’ kick-started over a century of Scottish witch hunts, and proved that your average Presbyterian could be just as vindictive as your average Catholic when it came to fighting Satan's minions. While an equilibrium had been established between the two great Christian powers, neither can yet lay claim to being the saintliest, and each still has that heavy cross of guilt to bear. Another perfect doublecross, perhaps?” (Rosslyn Chapel Revisited)

One agent provocateur of the Rosicrucian societies was, in fact, John Calvin, who was a crypto-Jew and whose legacy of legalism and bloodshed brought reproach against Christianity which continues to the present day. This staggering piece of evidence — that Calvin was Jewish — was obtained from the proceedings of the B’nai B’rith Convention in Paris in 1936.

“Once the revolution had been decided upon, the Jewish plotters introduced Calvinism into England to split Church and State, and divide the people. Contrary to general belief, Calvinism is of Jewish origin. It was deliberately conceived to split the adherents of the Christian religions and divide the people. Calvin's real name was Cohen! When he went from Geneva to France to start preaching his doctrine he became known as Cauin. Then in England it became Calvin. History proves that there is hardly a revolutionary plot that wasn't hatched in Switzerland; there is hardly a Jewish revolutionary leader who hasn’t changed his name.
“At B'nai B'rith celebrations held in Paris, France, in 1936 Cohen, Cauvin, or Calvin, whatever his name may have been, was enthusiastically acclaimed to have been of Jewish descent (The Catholic Gazette, February, 1936)...

“‘We are the Fathers of all Revolutions, even of those which sometimes happen to turn against us. We are the supreme Masters of Peace and War. We can boast of being the Creators of the Reformation! Calvin was one of our children; he was of Jewish descent, and was entrusted by Jewish authority and encouraged with Jewish finance to draft his scheme in the reformation (which was to convince Christians it was alright to charge usury and other damnable heresies which are in violation of God’s Laws).” (Eustace Mullins, The Secret Holocaust)

The modus operandi of International Jewry is the dialectical process — sowing discord, polarizing the masses and playing both extremes off against one other. The animosities they generate render the masses incapable of recognizing the true conspirators and, even if they did, the rivalries would be so ingrained they would be unwilling to unite against the conspirators. This modus operandi is clearly stated in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: “Throughout all Europe, and by means of relations with Europe, in other continents also, we must create ferments, discords, and hostility. Therein we gain a double advantage. In the first place we keep in check all countries, for they well know that we have the power whenever we like to create disorders or to restore order.” (Protocol 7)

SOURCE: http://watch.pair.com/new-reformation.html

GALATIONS 1:1-9
ANOTHER GOSPEL?
"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2006/06/john-calvin-orginally-cohen-then-cauin.html

by **strangelove** Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:23 pm

ADMIN----MERGED WITH EXISTING 'Calvinism' TOPIC

Me and zone found this on a different website and I was gonna post something but I couldn't find any supporting evidence that Calvin was a Crypto-Jew.

"I have had much conversation with many Jews: I have never seen either a drop of piety or a grain of truth or ingenuousness—nay, I have never found common sense in any Jew."

- Calvin

by ada Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:15 pm

Hmm no evidence? I would disagree but besides that the most important part is that calvinism is conceived to destroy the true church and that he was a cold blooded murderer and money obsessed as a result the similarity to zionism.In fact he blesses jewish tradition.

Links:
Cohen..
http://www.solarsabbath.org/calvin.htm

The Huguenots and the Jews
http://sassienie.community.officelive.com/Documents/Who were the Huguenots.htm

THE JUDAISING OF CHRISTIANS BY JEWS
http://www.fatherfeeney.org/point/57-jul.html

Royal Lineage
http://www.shuartfarm.fsnet.co.uk/politics/t-dunford/stewart_royal_lineage.htm

Ted Pike on Calvinism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41URUhixBcg
JVLib friendly revealings
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0004_0_03871.html

Eutace Mullins
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/curse_of_canaan.pdf

Servetus murder

He burned Michael Servetus [at the stake] (for rejecting infant baptism and for denying Christ’s deity). Calvin wrote about Servetus, ‘One should not be content with simply killing such people, but should burn them cruelly.’” (FBIS, “The Calvinism Debate”)

by **strangelove** Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:24 pm

Did you wanna talk about some of the doctrines that people tend to associate to the word 'Calvinism'?

by ada Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:34 pm

Dr. Scott Johnson warnings.
You can find his site here.

video command

Thank you Susan
https://www.youtube.com/user/SEK4110

MAKE the CONNECTIONS: Rick Warren, Rupert Murdoch, John Piper, James White, John MacArthur, Steve Lawson, Eric Jon Phelps, Chris Pinto, Paul Washer, Mark Dice, Alex Jones, Chris White, KeithTruth, 52Blades, ChristianScholarship, ALL CALVINISTS who are ALL connected to each other and Warren is a member of the CFR and the United Nations, John Calvin tied to Geneva, Lucis Trust's headquarter's is in Geneva, and Calvinism is taking over with the HEAD of the movement a NEW AGE REFORMER just like ALL the church " allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"fraters" who were ALL Alchemists.

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Revelation 3:14-16

The World From Our Window: Rick Warren Giving Counsel to Jewish ...Dec 20, 2007 ... Rick Warren Giving Counsel to Jewish Leaders on How to Grow Their Congregations.
http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2007/12/rick-warren-giving-counsel-t...

THE REFORMATION:
http://watch.pair.com/reformation.html
ROSICRUCIAN CONNECTIONS
Today we hear frequent exhortations coming from Fundamental and Evangelical leaders that the Church needs a "new Reformation," or a second or third Reformation. For example, Rick Warren has stated:

"I intend to use the Purpose Driven movement to fulfill PEACE in a new reformation." (Florida Baptist Witness, May 6, 2004)

By "new reformation", Rick Warren means the following:

"Well, as I said, I could take you to villages that don't have a clinic... But they've got a church. In fact, in many countries the only infrastructure that is there is religion... What if in this 21st century we were able to network these churches providing the...manpower in local congregations. Let's just take my religion by itself. Christianity... The church is bigger than any government in the world. Then you add in Muslims, you add in Hindus, you add in all the different religions, and you use those houses of worship as distribution centers, not just for spiritual care but for health care. What could be done?

"Government has a role and business has a role and churches, house of worship have a role. I think it's time to go to the moon, and I invite you to go with us." (Time Magazine, Nov. 1, 2005)

"In the 1990s I trained about a quarter of a million pastors. It's now gone, as I said, to over 400,000... And we're talking about all different kinds of groups, including priests in the Catholic Church, and including rabbis... So anyway, then in the 21st century I said that now we're going global." (Speech to Religious Newscasters Association Convention in 2005)

Here we see that, despite the positive connotations attached to the word, "reformation" does not necessarily mean that the end result will be the spiritual enrichment of Christianity, in other words, a Christianity more faithful to Scripture. To "reform" may also mean "to form again," which is to restructure and, by implication, to change into a completely different entity. "Transformation" — another definition of "reformation" — is also a term commonly heard from today's Evangelical leaders. Given their unbiblical teachings, a "Transformation of the Church" by false teachers like Rick Warren would "transform" Christianity into another religion altogether, even if it retained the nominal label of "Christian."

Few Christians realize that plans for a future and final Reformation of the Church were developed by leading occultists of the 17th century Rosicrucian Enlightenment. The documentation we have presented on this web page represents our research into the Rosicrucian infiltration of the Protestant Reformation and the Rosicrucian plan for yet another Reformation of the Church. Our investigation was undertaken to determine if the Protestant Reformation was at the outset a work of the Rosicrucians for the purpose of dividing and conquering the Roman Catholic Church.

The following outline contains information gleaned from various sources, but primarily from the works of high level occultists, with special focus on the Rosicrucians. The Christian reader will find, as we did, some disturbing information in these passages.

by **strangelove** Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:59 pm

ada wrote:Hmm no evidence? I would disagree but besides that the most important part is that calvinism is conceived to destroy the true church and that he was a cold blooded murderer and money obsessed as a result the similarity to zionism.In fact he blesses jewish tradition.

Ok but is there in any error in the actual doctrines that are associated with the name Calvin that you wanted to show are destroying the Church? If so, what errors are they?

by ada Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:54 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Ok but is there in any error in the actual doctrines that are associated with the name Calvin that you wanted to show are destroying the Church? If so, what errors are they?

Ok brother i will try..

Jesus said Trust no man.We should trust and follow him allone.

Calvinists believe in predestination or election what leads to once saved always saved and therefor will never fail.
This is proud and therefor sin. If you are elected a gospel is not essential.Its the same as those who think that
Gods chosen do not really need Jesus because they are under the first covenant.
This has destroyed the church from within because she is divided how God really is.
Is he kind and compassionate as the bible clearly tell us that he claims us to be so.
Calvinists question that Gods look at your heart and chase you personally for devotion.
Did Calvin,Luther,Arminus,a Pope or any modern Church-leader die for you and could wash away any of your sin?
Calvinism doctrine may lead to a faith, that God might be a despot or a tyrant in nature.

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:42 am

ada wrote:Calvinists believe in predestination or election what leads to once saved always saved and therefor will never fail.

So you dont believe in predestination? Even though it's taught in the bible? Can you explain Rom. 8:30?

ada wrote:
This is proud and therefor sin.

Proud? I dont think so. More like comforting.

ada wrote:
If you are elected a gospel is not essential.

I think hyper-calvinists might have that view but not regular peeps who simply accept the doctrine of predestination. The Gospel is essential to the process. God speaks to us through his Word.

ada wrote:
Its the same as those who think that Gods chosen do not really need Jesus because they are under the first covenant.

A bit of an unfair parallel

ada wrote:
This has destroyed the church from within because she is divided how God really is.
Is he kind and compassionate as the bible clearly tell us that he claims us to be so.

Yes He is BUT: does He prepare some people as vessels of destruction and some as vessels of mercy?

ada wrote:
Calvinists question that Gods look at your heart and chase you personally for devotion.
Did Calvin,Luther,Arminus,a Pope or any modern Church-leader die for you and could wash away any of your sin?
Calvinism doctrine may lead to a faith, that God might be a despot or a tyrant in nature.

I dont understand this bit.

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:41 am

Ok brother,now that you have fragmented my posting.
You really believe that God had unconditional elected a small elite group of people to heaven
and the majority destined to hell before creation of mankind claiming this is funded by scripture
and Jesus died only for the elect? Come on ask your heart that this is not biblical at all.

You asked what about Romans 8:30 (or Ephesians 1:4?) i would ask you firmly what about

John 3:16 ?
For God so loved the world, that he agave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Or Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Or Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Or Timothy 4:10
For therefore awe both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

Or John 6:28–29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work othe works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 7:7–8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Who? Some elite (s)elected people? No whosoever believeth in him.
Does the Bible contradicts it self? We know that this can't be so.
Calvinism is another man made Gospel and leads to division of the Church.

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:49 am

ada wrote:Ok brother,now that you have fragmented my posting.
You really believe that God had unconditional elected a small elite group of people to heaven
and the majority destined to hell before creation of mankind claiming this is funded by scripture
and Jesus died only for the elect? Come on ask your heart that this is not biblical at all.

Who said Jesus died only for the elect? I didn't say that. Did Calvin? I've never read a word of his works so I wouldn't know.

Jesus' words seem to imply there will be a small amount of people who find the way to eternal life:

(Matthew 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As for your use of the word 'elite'. I would ask you, are you 'elite' because you are a true believer? Or are you simply a true believer and thats it?

ada wrote:You asked what about Romans 8:30 (or Ephesians 1:4) i would ask you firmly what about

Uhm.....I would like you to give me your interpretation of it please. Does it not teach the doctrine of election/predestination?

ada wrote:Does the Bible contradicts it self? We know that this can't be so.

Ok, lets take a look at your verses and see if they contradict this doctrine:

ada wrote:John 3:16 ?
For God so loved the world, that he agave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whosoever believith in him was predestined by God to do so. No contradiction.

ada wrote:Or Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (TRULY) was predestined by God. No contradiction.

ada wrote:Or Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Him that heareth and him that is athirst were predestined by God. No contradiction.

ada wrote:Or Timothy 4:10
For therefore awe both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

Jesus obviously isn't going to save ALL men to the Kingdom, I think we can both agree on that. So whats the meaning of this verse? Clearly theres a distinction between those who believe, and the whole world. It's similar to the verse that says Jesus died for the sins of the world. i.e. The whole world has the offer of saving Grace, but only a few will believe and be saved. And those few were predestined by God. Slight contradiction there but a clear distinction in the same verse so, no probs.

ada wrote:Or John 6:28–29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work othe works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Those who believed were predestined to do so. No contradiction.

ada wrote:Matthew 7:7–8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Those who ASK and SEEK and KNOCK were predestined by God to do so. EVEN THE FAITH which they have to do these things are a gift from God. Even faith is not mans work only God's work. No contradiction.

(Romans 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

ada wrote:Who? Some elite (s)elected people? No whosoever believeth in him.

Whosoever believeth in him were selected by God and predestined to do so. I wouldn't call them 'elite' personally but...whatever floats your boat.

(2 Thessalonians 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(2 Thessalonians 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note the necessity of the Gospel in the equation!

ada wrote:
Calvinism is another man made Gospel and leads to division of the Church.

I dunno about John Calvin and certain hyper-Cals which may very well cause division, but the doctrine of predestination/election is absolutely rock solid doctrine as taught in the Holy Bible but if you want to refute it then lets go.

by zone Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:11 pm

ada wrote:
Who? Some elite (s)elected people? No whosoever believeth in him.
Does the Bible contradicts it self? We know that this can't be so.
Calvinism is another man made Gospel and leads to division of the Church.

ada
i'm not "of calvin" either.
let's leave calvin out of this and just examine what the Scriptures say.

i don't go for 5 point TULIP DANDELION whatever.

but what do these passages mean?:

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

now, you (or i) can easily say we were not called out...that we made a decision for Jesus somewhere along the line, and God saw our longing heart and had mercy (actually Scripture says NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD).

but: this verse is ROCK SOLID that Jesus chose the 12. He is EXPLICIT that they did not in any way choose HIM. that He, rather CHOSE THEM:

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

so, knowing that we are not the 12, we can say, "well, that was THEM; or that was for a specific purpose"; or some other reason WHY He chose them and made a point of SPECIFICALLY letting them know they DID NOT choose Him. He didn't have to mention that at all.

and that is recorded, so that WE TOO WILL KNOW that they did NOT choose Him, rather He chose THEM.

so....ON THIS TESTIMONY by Jesus Himself, the notion that He does not CHOOSE is completely disqualified, even if we only ever apply it to the 12.
(keep in mind also that Judas was chosen, though he was called the son that goes into destruction).

THE 12:
some chosen to salvation.
one chosen for a purpose, but will perish.

??????

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:13 pm

All predestination or election is based on free WHOSOEVER WILL faith in Jesus Christ!
The blessings and actions are not unconditional meaning you surely could go astray and
finally could decide to worship the adversary or take the mark of the antichrist even if it may not likely be so.

God foreknew who will believe in Jesus but he will not determine your action to have faith, and let God in your heart, thats your part.
So its not so important how you start your life after salvation but how you finish it.
Zone John 6:44 and John 15:16 context refers to a certain key role of service as for Jesus or his disciples
not for a general salvation statement.

Matthew 24:13
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

by zone Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:02 pm

ada wrote:
All predestination or election is based on free WHOSOEVER WILL faith in Jesus Christ!
The blessings and actions are not unconditional meaning you surely could go astray and
finally could decide to worship the adversary or take the mark of the antichrist even if it may not likely be so.

God foreknew who will believe in Jesus but he will not determine your action to have faith, and let God in your heart, thats your part.
So its not so important how you start your life after salvation but how you finish it.
Zone John 6:44 and John 15:16 context refers to a certain key role of service as for Jesus or his disciples
not for a general salvation statement.

Matthew 24:13
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

so your salvation depends upon you.
does it depend upon how righteous you are?
how sinful/sinless?

Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice

1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,^a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,^b but on God, who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:16 pm

I am out of this debate.Hardcore advocating parts of the scripture by ignoring other fundamentals of Gods offer for all mankind is not my cup of tea.You are advocating double-mindedness making a conflict of opposites out of the simple message of the gospel.

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:27 pm

ada wrote:
I am out of this debate.

Lolz. That was quick.

Admit it ada. Election/assurance/predestination is solid doctrine. It's undeniable.

The love of many will wax cold indeed. But those who endure till the end are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD.

(1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I'm confident of my salvation. How about you zone? Since we know we're gonna be saved whateva...do you fancy coming round mine tonight for some drunkeness and wild partying? Laughing

(NOT!)

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:14 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Lolz. That was quick.

Admit it ada. Election/assurance/predestination is solid doctrine. It's undeniable.

The love of many will wax cold indeed. But those who endure till the end are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD.

(1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I'm confident of my salvation. How about you zone? Since we know we're gonna be saved whateva...do you fancy coming round mine tonight for some drunkeness and wild partying? (NOT!)

No i don't admit! I am total against of that kind of death cult .

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:23 pm

Part II

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:07 pm

Whats the gist of the videos?

How does he refute predestination? Cant you do it yourself?

Death cult? Lolz. Whats the harm in knowing that you will be kept till the end by the power of God?

Again...I'm not in the cult of Calvin. I've never mixed with any of his followers or read a word of his work. Lets thrash out the doctrines using scripture together and we'll get to the bottom of this.

But I want to talk to ada not Dr. Vernon McGee.

by ada Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:44 pm

You only point to parts of the scripture that supports your predestination, election want to believe faith by ignoring
other parts of scripture that clearly manifests that our
Lord died for all who call up His name and have faith and trust
in Him.So its an other gospel.A dialectical tool of jewish origin.

By the way did you delete a post again?

by **strangelove** Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:15 am

ada wrote:You only point to parts of the scripture that supports your predestination, election want to believe faith by ignoring other parts of scripture that clearly manifests that our
Lord died for all who call up His name and have faith and trust
in Him.So its an other gospel.A dialectical tool of jewish origin.

You posted scriptures, I answered every one of them to show how predestination works with them. I asked TWICE what you thought of Romans 8:30. You have still failed to address it.

God makes some vessels of wrath and others vessels of mercy. Is this true or false?

(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Romans 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Now, are YOU going to ignore parts of scripture that clearly manifest that our Lord has pre-prepared some for honour and some for destruction? Or are you going to address the scriptures like I've done with yours?

ada wrote:
By the way did you delete a post again?

Not recently no. If I did it was because you copied someones work and failed to cite the source.

by ada Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:11 am

Ok thanks than it was my fault.

by zone Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:01 pm

ada wrote:
I am out of this debate.Hardcore advocating parts of the scripture by ignoring other fundamentals of Gods offer for all mankind is not my cup of tea.You are advocating double-mindedness making a conflict of opposites out of the simple message of the gospel.

but ada, i do believe there is a general call to all of mankind (except to the reprobate).
i'm not hyper-cal, nor even calvinist.

by zone Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:03 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Lolz. That was quick.

Admit it ada. Election/assurance/predestination is solid doctrine. It's undeniable.

The love of many will wax cold indeed. But those who endure till the end are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD.

(1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I'm confident of my salvation. How about you zone? Since we know we're gonna be saved whateva...do you fancy coming round mine tonight for some drunkeness and wild partying? (NOT!)

LOL. ya docster.
the - salvation - is - the - Lord's - doing - let's - be - antinomian - thinga-ma-bobbee

by ada Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:58 am

Oh yea you deny calvinism for yourself but this forum is called calvinism isn't it brothers and sisters?
So it does not mater what you saying you are still in the doctrine if you defend its tenets.Or am i wrong?

Listen i don't want to hurt anyone feelings i am here to learn.And please don't laugh at me.Your "Lol" and "Lolz" shows a kind of conduct.
Studying the bible is not the only source of godly revelation its only a road map.It never reflect the whole fullness of Gods nature.
In accepting tenets of calvinism it may have harden someones hearts.Depending on general tenets tends to listen to the many experts
who are better educated and studied than yourself.So you are in a danger to merely listen to man than to listen what Jesus is saying directly
to your heart.
So the bible alone is not the true logos the true word of God.The true logos the true word of God is Jesus Christ, God himself.We should never make a competition between biblical law oriented tenets and the fullness of Gods being. The foremost order is in "vertically" looking for Him to know him more and more day by day.

by ada Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:53 am

Did He say everyone? Yes everyone!

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