The Two Israels of Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26

On another Christian forum someone said that John the Baptist and Elijah will
represent Israel during the tribulation period. The tropic was who are the
Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

I know to a church member now, this will sound radical. But which
Israel are you talking about when you say John the Baptist and Elijah
will be for Israel during the tribulation period?

Paul says in Romans 9: 6-8 that "For they are not all Israel, which
are of Israel...That is, They which are the children of the flesh.
these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are
counted for the seed."

He contrasts Old Covenant Israel with New Covenant Israel in Galatians
4: 24-26 and says the covenant from Mount Sinai, which is the old
Covenant for the children of the flesh, which he calls the Jerusalem that is
in bondage with her children. He refers to the Jerusalem "which is
above is free, which is the mother of us all" as Jerusalem under the
New Covenant. "Jerusalem" in this passage is the same as Israel. He
could have used Israel rather than Jerusalem.

The problem for many or most in the churches today is that they are
following theology rather than scripture. Which means they are not
following the doctrine of Christ as explained in II John 1: 9-11.
Christ died on he cross to transform the old Israel - the children of
the flesh in bondage - to the new Israel reborn in him.
Dispensationalism fundamentally confuses the distinction between the
two Israels.

hello northwye!
welcome.

great post, and most of us here agree that believing israel became the Church into which the the gentiles were grafted.

we also agree that Dispensational theology is a grevious error that is causing so much trouble today. see threads on the subject all over the place and we could use more input...post away!

re:

I know to a church member now, this will sound radical. But which
Israel are you talking about when you say John the Baptist and Elijah
will be for Israel during the tribulation period?

maybe you feel led to start a thread on the 2 witnesses, perhaps in Bible study? that would be great.......i've wondered if the 2 witnesses are actually FOR "israel" (present jerusalem), or prophesying AGAINST her, and so are killed.

whoever they are, it does say they are killed in Jerusalem.

again, welcome to the Wilderness.
zone

hi dude...totally agree with your OP.

If only more Christians were not obsessed with making an idol of the sand situated in Palestine.

The Kingdom of God...is now. Is covering the entire Earth...in spirit.

There is no more and will be no more physical Kingdom of God.

Welcome to the forum mate.

Doc.

[b]zone

Oh, boy, I did write a draft on the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. But because there is not much text there that leads into an interpretation, one can easily get into speculation or conjecture on what it means.

I focused on Revelation 11: 4-5, and thought this is an Old Covenant form of judgment.

[/b]In Luke 9: 52-55 a village of the Samaritans did not receive Christ,
and so James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven and burn
them up. "And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said,
Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and
consume them, even as Elias did 55. But he turned, and rebuked them,
and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save
them. And they went to another village."
John 10: 10 says "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill,
and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they
might have it more abundantly."
He is saying that the "thief" which is Satan and his human followers
want to steal, kill and destroy, and this is the spirit that James and
John had in wanting to burn up
that village of the Samaritans. Christ came to a dark and violent
world to bring it spiritual life.
An example of the type of judgment that James and John wanted to be
done to the village of the Samaritans - which can be found under the
Old Covenant - is when Elijah
called fire down from heaven to burn up Jezebel's 450 prophets of Baal
and 400 prophets
of the groves in I Kings 18: 19-38.
Beyond this much, I am not now sure how to interpret other verses of Chapter 11. Verse 18 saying that God should destroy them that destroy the earth is interesting in view of the possibility now that HAARP might be used to cause great earthquakes and even tornadoes. I saw a post recently on Facebook giving a link to an article that claims NASA has somehow or other suggested that HAARP might have been used to set off the great earthquake in Japan. There was a 3.9 earthquake about 35 miles east of where I live in Missouri, and one guy reported seeing lights moving in the sky during the shaking in the early hours of June 7th which stopped as soon as the shaking stopped. it didn't wake me up 35 miles away.

WOW.
thanks northwye!

yes....i've wondered about the son of perdition's deceiving of the people on the earth, "he maketh fire come down from heaven in the sight of men".....etc

maybe when they set up an altar in Jeru and sacrifice an animal, "fire" would down "from heaven" on it, perhaps the world says OH! IT IS THE LORD!???

anyways, that's a cool study. thanks!

i guess we'll have to wait and see.
zone

northwye wrote:Verse 18 saying that God should destroy them that destroy the earth is interesting in view of the possibility now that HAARP might be used to cause great earthquakes and even tornadoes. I saw a post recently on Facebook giving a link to an article that claims NASA has somehow or other suggested that HAARP might have been used to set off the great earthquake in Japan. There was a 3.9 earthquake about 35 miles east of where I live in Missouri, and one guy reported seeing lights moving in the sky during the shaking in the early hours of June 7th which stopped as soon as the shaking stopped. it didn't wake me up 35 miles away.

Yup,

we got HAARP covered here:

Japan Earthquake - More HAARP Madness?

And here:

H.A.A.R.P - High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program

Next stop could be the New Madrid Fault Line. They have been doing 'exercises' there. Madrid Fault Warnings

zone wrote:WOW.
thanks northwye!

yes....i've wondered about the son of perdition's deceiving of the people on the earth, "he maketh fire come down from heaven in the sight of men".....etc

maybe when they set up an altar in Jeru and sacrifice an animal, "fire" would down "from heaven" on it, perhaps the world says OH! IT IS THE LORD!???

anyways, that's a cool study. thanks!

i guess we'll have to wait and see.
zone

Maybe thats what all this is about:

Fake UFO Over Jerusalem? Project Bluebeam?