AntiDominion?

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:04 pm

For those who responded nagatively;

"In a politico-religious context, dominionism (also called subjectionism[1]) is the tendency among some conservative politically-active Christians, especially in the United States, to seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action. The goal is either a nation governed by Christians, or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law."

Using the same defintion, I pose this question;

Since you have rejected biblical law what should be the basis for governance?

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:07 pm

Personally Im curious to know what believers consider a better base than the scriptures, although I cant imagine how it could be possible.

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:11 pm

Erm....

NO?

(Do you want me to move this to a proper debate thread?)

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Strangelove wrote:Erm....

NO?

(Do you want me to move this to a proper debate thread?)

Yeah ,I didnt know it was on the wrong board.

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:27 pm

I dont think any non-dominionists have a problem with Biblical law.

I think the problem is trying to build a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law.

I mean, there will need to be written law....and enforcement of that law. It's basically like going back to Mosaic old covenant.

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:45 pm

Hitch wrote:I refer you to the Parable of the Talents

Wasn't the point of the parable that the wise ones who did well will eventually>>

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

...which happens AFTER Jesus comes?

Are you saying that the phrase "I will make thee ruler over many things:" means secular ruler over Earthly nations and peoples?.......and armies?

Hitch wrote:
and the ever elusive War of Conquest.

Was it really God's plan to leave the Caananites in power and have Israel 'under' the pagans ?

I dunno...I havn't got that far in the OT. Embarassed

Question: How are Christians doing in their mission to take over politics? Any inroads? Whats the plan? Suspect

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:40 pm

Question for Hitch:

Is there going to be persecution for Christians in the endtimes?

Or will the time just before Christs return be a Christian utopia?

by **strangelove** Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:45 pm

Merged with 'Antidominion' thread and moved to theology forum.

by reba Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

by reba Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Hold still till i catch up Sheesh

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:57 pm

Strangelove wrote:Question for Hitch:

Is there going to be persecution for Christians in the endtimes?

In case you missed it there is persecution now

Or will the time just before Christs return be a Christian utopia?

Christ will return at such a time the Father decides, it is likely this will be when the church ,as a structure or orchard if you like, is complete. Everywhere christianity is practiced life is better for the believer and non believer like, so it seems the general bent toward progress will continue.

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:00 pm

Strangelove wrote:I dont think any non-dominionists have a problem with Biblical law.

I think the problem is trying to build a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law.

I mean, there will need to be written law....and enforcement of that law. It's basically like going back to Mosaic old covenant.

So what is your answer? What are the alternatives you could support?

Since you have rejected biblical law what should be the basis for governance?

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 pm

Strangelove wrote:

Wasn't the point of the parable that the wise ones who did well will eventually>>

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

...which happens AFTER Jesus comes?

The were judged on what they accomplished with what they had been given.

Are you saying that the phrase "I will make thee ruler over many things:" means secular ruler over Earthly nations and peoples?.......and armies?

When one is faithful in the little things, he is granted more responsibility and reward as his experience and abilities expand.

I dunno...I havn't got that far in the OT.

tsk tsk

Question: How are Christians doing in their mission to take over politics? Any inroads? Whats the plan?

Well as I reported, my believing cousin is a judge on a bench that would have otherwise go to homosexual or at the least a pro-homosexual. Perhaps I am alone in thinking that is positive. Liberty University ,is granting degrees in Crmial Justice,Education,Nurseing and Business. I hope no one will actually use their education , I mean , christians are just not supposed to lead anything, right?

In fact all christian education should be closed and any believers in positions of leadership should be removed. No one should ever have to face a judge in court thinking the judge might be a ,,,,,christian ewwwww!!! Evil or Very Mad

Since others might read this I'll suggest a title, its a short read and its not usually associated with 'dominionism' .

The Great Evengelical Disaster, Francis Schaeffer

by Hitch Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:32 pm

Should a christian forum be operated by a christian believer?

Yes/no why?

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:27 am

reba wrote:Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Indeeed man has dominion over all the other CREATURES of the Earth. Not over his fellow man.

Hitch wrote:
In case you missed it there is persecution now

I didnt miss it. I see it. But you avoided the question.
Is there going to be persecution for Christians in the endtimes?

Hitch wrote:
Christ will return at such a time the Father decides, it is likely this will be when the church ,as a structure or orchard if you like, is complete.

So...seeing as we dont see any of this in the Gospel, tell me...at what point do you think the church will be complete?
Is it gonna be a certain percentage of the population in each country who are believers? 70%? 80? Or is it more about having Christians in positions of power in every nation on Earth? Are you looking for a one world governement run by Christians? Will that be when your alternative Great Commission will be complete?

Hitch wrote:
Everywhere christianity is practiced life is better for the believer and non believer like, so it seems the general bent toward progress will continue.

What? You mean like individual families? Tiny communities? Surely your not talking about nations? USA? Is that a model Christian country? Lolz!

Hitch wrote:
So what is your answer? What are the alternatives you could support?

Since you have rejected biblical law what should be the basis for governance?

Ya how 'bout this....we leave the secular governance and other WORLDLY matters to those people who are OF the world, and we continue to stand firm in the faith and keep evangelizing the Gospel to people. The ones who have the ears to hear will be pierced by the Gospel message and not by the end of a spear!

What happens to all the nonbelievers in your Christian utopia? Are they thrown in prison? Surely they're unbelief will not be tolerated as they will be breaking the written laws of the land!?

So Christians will become the persecuters? affraid

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:41 am

Strangelove wrote:
Indeeed man has dominion over all the other CREATURES of the Earth. Not over his fellow man.

I didnt miss it. I see it. But you avoided the question.
Is there going to be persecution for Christians in the endtimes?

Probably

So...seeing as we dont see any of this in the Gospel, tell me...at what point do you think the church will be complete?

When the Father has called all He foreknew

Is it gonna be a certain percentage of the population in each country who are believers? 70%? 80? Or is it more about having Christians in positions of power in every nation on Earth?

Beats me

Are you looking for a one world governement run by Christians? Will that be when your alternative Great Commission will be complete?
Explain 'alternative great commission '
What? You mean like individual families? Tiny communities? Surely your not talking about nations? USA? Is that a model Christian country? Lolz!
In general terms is life better today in the US that 100 years ago ?
Ya how 'bout this....we leave the secular governance and other WORLDLY matters to those people who are OF the world, and we continue to stand firm in the faith and keep evangelizing the Gospel to people.

So you prefer keeping pagans in power,correct?

The ones who have the ears to hear will be pierced by the Gospel message and not by the end of a spear!

Do you vote? If you do how do you justify the practice? [quote]

What happens to all the nonbelievers in your Christian utopia? Like I said earlier, the ignorance here and the willingness to display it surprizes me . Odd thing to say,do you have any basis for such a statement?

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:44 am

Hitch wrote:Well as I reported, my believing cousin is a judge on a bench that would have otherwise go to homosexual or at the least a pro-homosexual.

Thats it? Thats the plan? One judge? What are YOU doing personally in the world of politcs and the Immense Commission of taking over the world for Christendom? there must be a gameplan for the Dominionists? A new political party perchance? Any success with that in the past?

Hitch wrote:
Perhaps I am alone in thinking that is positive.

I think a Christian judge is a positive thing in and of itself. Its good for those who will benefit directly from it. But you need to put a Christian in every seat of power and authority in the country to fulfill yer commission and change the world. Hmmm...'Change'....hearing that alot lately.
Not......gonna....happen.

Hitch wrote:
Liberty University ,is granting degrees in Crmial Justice,Education,Nurseing and Business.

?? Great start ?? And everyone poppin' out of there with a degree is 1) Definatley a true believer and 2) Sure to get an influential job in the secular world??
Dunno if you noticed Hitchmeister but....the system is TOTALLY controlled by satans hoardes. Like...completely. There is NO way for honest Christians to take it over. You can call it a pessamistic overview if ya like.....to me its just realism. I dont see the need to anyway.

Hitch wrote:
I hope no one will actually use their education , I mean , christians are just not supposed to lead anything, right?

Theres no call for Christians to lead secular institutions or hold positions of authority over other men. Unless you can bring some scripture forward that says otherwise. Scripture pertaining to Christians would be preferable.

Hitch wrote:
In fact all christian education should be closed and any believers in positions of leadership should be removed.

Chritian leadership is fine if it's within the Christian community.

Hitch wrote:
No one should ever have to face a judge in court thinking the judge might be a ,,,,,christian ewwwww!!!

Since others might read this I'll suggest a title, its a short read and its not usually associated with 'dominionism' .

The Great Evengelical Disaster, Francis Schaeffer

You should listen to that sermon I posted. He's a Calvinist and a Spurgeon fan, You'll like him. He explains all this brilliantly. Christians in seats of influence is not evil itself but its not the answer to how we spread the Gospel. Give it a listen and tell me what you think. Find the error if you can. I'm not asking you to read a book...its just an hour long.

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:02 am

Strangelove wrote:
Thats it? Thats the plan? One judge?[/ What are YOU doing personally in the world of politcs and the Immense Commission of taking over the world for Christendom?

Encouraging believers so inclined to step up and shine the light they have been given.

there must be a gameplan for the Dominionists? A new political party perchance?

Might be a good idea

Any success with that in the past?

I think a Christian judge is a positive thing in and of itself. Its good for those who will benefit directly from it. But you need to put a Christian in every seat of power and authority in the country to fulfill yer commission and change the world.

Really And how do you know this ? Did you know the Puritiains in a America were never morfe than a small fraction of the population ?

Hmmm...'Change'....hearing that alot lately.
Not......gonna....happen.

?? Great start ?? And everyone poppin' out of there with a degree is 1) Definatley a true believer and 2) Sure to get an influential job in the secular world??

A littleboy is allowed to scream for what he wants an adult is required to put forth effort and learn ,as Jesuus taught in the parables, that some things, like the Kingdom of God, are realized slowly, after much time and great effort.

Dunno if you noticed Hitchmeister but....the system is TOTALLY controlled by satans hoardes. Like...completely. There is NO way for honest Christians to take it over.

I refer you to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares .

You can call it a pessamistic overview if ya like.....to me its just realism. I dont see the need to anyway.

Theres no call for Christians to lead secular institutions or hold positions of authority over other men. Unless you can bring some scripture forward that says otherwise. Scripture pertaining to Christians would be preferable.

I suggested Schaeffer's title below

Chritian leadership is fine if it's within the Christian community.

And where is pagan leadership scripturally preferred?

You should listen to that sermon I posted. He's a Calvinist and a Spurgeon fan, You'll like him. He explains all this brilliantly. Christians in seats of influence is not evil itself but its not the answer to how we spread the Gospel. Give it a listen and tell me what you think. Find the error if you can. I'm not asking you to read a book...its just an hour long.

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:04 am

Strangelove wrote:
Is there going to be persecution for Christians in the endtimes?

Hitch wrote:
Probably

Right uhmm...why would there be persecution for Christians in the endtimes if the world has been Christianized. Surely your Christian New World Order would never allow it?

Hitch wrote:
When the Father has called all He foreknew.
Beats me .

Right so you have absolutely no idea what your supposed to be doing in this mission to take over the world.
Ok guys...theres no plan we're just gonna wing it!
Dominion?? - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTieOCdHzmII_WLtuLUc8AvVAS8dq9sFLlc0Y5bH-EhSzViDOT7ML_zZM4

Dominion?? - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTieOCdHzmII_WLtuLUc8AvVAS8dq9sFLlc0Y5bH-EhSzViDOT7ML_zZM4

We'll start with some guys cousin as a judge and work it from there!

Hitch wrote:
So you prefer keeping pagans in power,correct?

They can do what they want with their Earthly power. It doesnt concern me. Give unto Ceaser what is his.

Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Hitch wrote:
Do you vote? If you do how do you justify the practice?

Nope. Never voted ever. Not even when I was unsaved. Dunno if you noticed the conspiracy section? confused

Hitch wrote:
Like I said earlier, the ignorance here and the willingness to display it surprizes me . Odd thing to say,do you have any basis for such a statement?

Huh? Are you gonna answer the question or not? What happens to non-Chrtistians in a world run by Christians BY LAW?

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:06 am

Hitch wrote: Encouraging believers so inclined to step up and shine the light they have been given. Might be a good idea Really? And how do you know this ? Did you know the Puritiains in a America were never more than a small fraction of the population ? A little boy is allowed to scream for what he wants an adult is required to put forth effort and learn ,as Jesuus taught in the parables, that some things, like the Kingdom of God, are realized slowly, after much time and great effort. This is especially true in teh case of Liberty, still a futurists organization, but one that has abandoned the 'dont polish the brass on a sinking ship:
'; mentality, you should try it I refer you to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares , Jesus does not agree with your assesment.. I suggested Schaeffer's title below And where is pagan leadership scripturally preferred?

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:17 am

Strangelove wrote:

Right uhmm...why would there be persecution for Christians in the endtimes if the world has been Christianized. Surely your Christian New World Order would never allow it?

Care to explain that?

Right so you have absolutely no idea what your supposed to be doing in this mission to take over the world.

Hmmm I didnt see your own detailed plan for global evengelization, Mr Kettle

Ok guys...theres no plan we're just gonna wing it!

We'll start with some guys cousin as a judge and work it from there!

Odd that even such a slight gain disturbs you.

They can do what they want with their Earthly power. It doesnt concern me.

yeah right

Give unto Ceaser what is his.

Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Nope. Never voted ever. Not even when I was unsaved. Dunno if you noticed the conspiracy scetion?

So you dont take your own advice ,,rendering unto Caesar... Paul expected slaves to work hard for their masters,as unto the Lord, it is foolish to think ,given our wealth and freedom, that we are not required to at the lest be good responsible citizens.

Huh? Are you gonna answer the question or not? What happens to non-Chrtistians in a world run by Christians BY LAW?

Well I would venture that much like today, christians would retain a deep seated and heavenly instilled love of justice and since christian are the children of the light, that would be willing to expend great amounts of energy to see Godly justice realized. Dont you?

by Adstar Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:18 am

Christians should have nothing to do with
Governing, policing, running jails or staffing the military.

We are not here to enforce Gods laws upon people. There is no nobility in following
the laws of God under the threat of a gun. It only makes people hate and resent
God and have a deep hatred for Christians.

It is totally counter productive to building the Kingdom in spirit. That takes
people accepting Jesus willingly without any form of governmental force.

Dominion theology is against the teachings of Jesus. He does not want us to
prostitute ourselves to the beast and be it's pawns.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:21 am

Hitch wrote:Encouraging believers so inclined to step up and shine the light they have been given.

Convenient. No actual plans to get into the cutthroat business yourself then?

Strangelove wrote:A new political party perchance?

Hitch wrote:Might be a good idea

Oh ya?! Any success with that tactic in the past?

Hitch wrote:Really And how do you know this ? Did you know the Puritiains in a America were never morfe than a small fraction of the population ?

Great...and how did that turn out? Is the USA a model Christian country? What went wrong? And why wouldn't it go wrong again?

Hitch wrote:A littleboy is allowed to scream for what he wants an adult is required to put forth effort and learn ,as Jesuus taught in the parables, that some things, like the Kingdom of God, are realized slowly, after much time and great effort.

The Kingdom of God cometh not by observation. Your comments please.

Hitch wrote:I refer you to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares .

Whats that got to do with politics?

Hitch wrote:I suggested Schaeffer's title below

Sorry. I dont read extra biblical titles by fallible men concerning basic doctrine. Show me a preacher, preaching this stuff FROM HIS BIBLE to his congregation and I might give it a listen.

Hitch wrote:And where is pagan leadership scripturally preferred?

Caesar? where is the call by Jesus or any of the Apostles to wrestle power from the pagan authorities?

by Adstar Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:24 am

I will explain it.

In the end times True Followers of Jesus will be persecuted and killed for
their witness to God. This is biblical, this is true.

Therefore those who will be persecuting them will not be true followers of
Jesus. But they will believe they are doing Gods work in killing true
Christians.

So with this in mind Dominionism if it succeeds will be the force that will be
killing true Christians at the end times. They shall be the ones who think they
will be doing God service in eliminating true Christians.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:25 am

Adstar wrote:Christians should have nothing to do with
Governing, policing, running jails or staffing the military.

We are not here to enforce Gods laws upon people. There is no nobility in following
the laws of God under the threat of a gun. It only makes people hate and resent
God and have a deep hatred for Christians.

It is totally counter productive to building the Kingdom in spirit. That takes
people accepting Jesus willingly without any form of governmental force.

Dominion theology is against the teachings of Jesus. He does not want us to
prostitute ourselves to the beast and be it's pawns.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Dominion?? - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfolE9h0drKwyv5L-5fb-bNdDi58hBRDdhX6Uxo8cPzaORAlQlwh8V5A

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:27 am

Adstar wrote:I will explain it.

In the end times True Followers of Jesus will be persecuted and killed for
their witness to God. This is biblical, this is true.

Therefore those who will be persecuting them will not be true followers of
Jesus. But they will believe they are doing Gods work in killing true
Christians.

So with this in mind Dominionism if it succeeds will be the force that will be
killing true Christians at the end times. They shall be the ones who think they
will be doing God service in eliminating true Christians.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And Christians AGAINST dominionism will obviously be public enemies no.1. There will be NO rocking the boat.

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:34 am

Strangelove wrote:
Convenient. No actual plans to get into the cutthroat business yourself then?

Im not a politician , but I am a voter.

Oh ya?! Any success with that tactic in the past?

Great...and how did that turn out? Is the USA a model Christian country?

Got something better

What went wrong? And why wouldn't it go wrong again?

You're a slow one, take a week or two and read through the parables of Matthew 13,

The Kingdom of God cometh not by observation. Your comments please.

see Mat 13

Whats that got to do with politics?

You claime the system is entirely in the hands of the enemy, Jesus is contrary, I'll wager he has a better understanding than you

Sorry. I dont read extra biblical titles by fallible men concerning basic doctrine. Show me a preacher, preaching this stuff FROM HIS BIBLE to his congregation and I might give it a listen.

I did you couldnt spare the time

Caesar? where is the call by Jesus or any of the Apostles to wrestle power from the pagan authorities?

Well its right next to the passage that says believers shouldnt be in politics, or military or any positions of leadership.

Perhaps you missed it but it is no longer the first century, and though you compalin like a spoiled teenager, our situation is far ,far better than anything in Paul's day. And with that comes reponsibilty, he said knowing ,it was wasted on one too good to vote....

by **strangelove** Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:40 am

Strangelove wrote:Right uhmm...why would there be persecution for Christians in the endtimes if the world has been Christianized. Surely your Christian New World Order would never allow it?

Hitch wrote:
Care to explain that?

Ya sure. You say Jesus will come when the world has been Christianized correct? You also say there will 'probably' be persecution of Christians in the endtimes? So my question was, how can there be persecution of Christians in a completely Christianized world. How does that work? Havn't you utterly failed in your mission if thats happening?

Hitch wrote:Hmmm I didnt see your own detailed plan for global evengelization, Mr Kettle

Oh sorry. It's right here:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Pretty simple eh?

Hitch wrote:So you dont take your own advice ,,rendering unto Caesar... Paul expected slaves to work hard for their masters,as unto the Lord, it is foolish to think ,given our wealth and freedom, that we are not required to at the lest be good responsible citizens.

Caesar is not my master. Jesus is my master. He told me to preach the Gospel. Thats what I'm doing. I have no responsibility to any government. Only to God. If you were in Germany in the 1930's would you be slaving hard for your Nazi rulers?

Hitch wrote:Well I would venture that much like today, christians would retain a deep seated and heavenly instilled love of justice and since christian are the children of the light, that would be willing to expend great amounts of energy to see Godly justice realized. Dont you?

So, what would Godly justice be for heathens who are running around talking about Islam and Buddhism and trying to convert everyone away from Jesus?

What have the eggheads at Liberty Uni come up with using all their MAN MADE law degrees and wotnot? What the plan? Whats next?

by reba Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:43 am

wow how very sad.

Adstar, do you use any of the benifits of the Governing, policing, running jails or staffing the military.

Do you expect other to obey traffic laws? To what degree do you really believe what you say? Get into a car wreck hope you dont seek a police report. The bad guys break into your home dont call the cops.
The government say in the form of a water district supplies the water to your home do you use it?

by Hitch Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:45 am

Adstar wrote:Christians should have nothing to do with
Governing, policing, running jails or staffing the military.

Chapter and verse please

We are not here to enforce Gods laws upon people. There is no nobility in following
the laws of God under the threat of a gun. It only makes people hate and resent
God and have a deep hatred for Christians.

It depends on waht that law is. If the law in queation is dont shoot me when you rob my house I sincerely hope a nice CHRISTIAN ploceman will enfore the law with dedly force if neccessary

It is totally counter productive to building the Kingdom in spirit. That takes
people accepting Jesus willingly without any form of governmental force.

Who has suggested forced ,conversions ,baptisms or anything of that nature?

Dominion theology is against the teachings of Jesus. He does not want us to
prostitute ourselves to the beast and be it's pawns.

straw

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Today when you buy gass you expect the state to enforce the implied contract that you get one gallon of gas for the price listed. That is , since you seem to be unaware, enforcing Mosaic Law on the public.

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