Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?

by **strangelove** Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:12 am

Anyone got Hoffers new book yet?

Is it out?

Also wanted:

Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism A History of Conflict by Jonas E. Alexis

by Grandpa Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:21 am

I was told by a Pastor that God's Plan failed in the garden of Eden. The Pastor said that God meant for Adam to be perfect but Satan ruined His Plan.

I argued with him for about an hour and he seemed to change his position to God's Plan doesn't fail but the people in it can cause it to change...

I still disagreed with him but let it sit with agreeing to disagree.

by zone Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:20 pm

LOL Gramps.....ya.
God's Plan got knocked off the rails a ton of ways.
i mean, when the jews rejected Him, the plan went careening wildly UNTIL - He came up with the idea of the Plan B church.

sheesh

by zone Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:22 pm

Strangelove wrote:Anyone got Hoffers new book yet?

Is it out?

Also wanted:

Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism A History of Conflict by Jonas E. Alexis

no doc.but i'm fixin' to send him some money for all the free reading and stuff.
maybe i'll order it.

by SarahM777 Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:59 am

This is a new one for me. Someone actually wanted to use a Bible study on Galatians by a man who is Chassidic,mystic,Orthodox Jew and Christian. Never mind the fact he also uses the Talmud and Mishna to provide the historical background for the study. Shocked

by zone Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:33 pm

SarahM777 wrote:This is a new one for me. Someone actually wanted to use a Bible study on Galatians by a man who is Chassidic,mystic,Orthodox Jew and Christian. Never mind the fact he also uses the Talmud and Mishna to provide the historical background for the study.

arga. lemme guess....

is it about needing a temple cuz Jesus hasta rule from it? and israel is the favored nation?

by SarahM777 Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:24 pm

zone wrote:

arga. lemme guess.... is it about needing a temple cuz Jesus hasta rule from it? and israel is the favored nation?

I don't think so. I think she's Hebrew Roots. (You have had run ins before with her) Rolling Eyes

The thread is called "A New Look at Galatians"

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/88768-new-look-galatians.html

by Angela53510 Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:20 am

Everything that woman writes is poison. She only knows one verse from the Bible somewhere in Psalm 119, which has totally "transformed" her thinking about how the OT is more important than the NT. And that the Old Covenant has to be literally followed, in addition to believing in Christ.

Hebrew Roots just drive me crazy! I'm glad Zone and others introduced me to this heresy. It was not taught at Seminary. We just learned the ancient heresies. Well, in fact, this is an ancient heresy, as Paul so clearly writes in Galatians.

I'm just not sure how anyone could look at even one verse of Galatians and come up with needing to follow the law. That is a kind of irony I don't appreciate!

by zone Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:46 am

well ang, it's HUGE. before it was known as HR, it was dominant in the WWCG ("legitimizing" it [not] in evangelicalism) before anyone knew of the HR thing. you had the messianic movement which came out of the jesus movement.

i see all that as against NT instruction and against all Christ died to change. we're not supposed to be distinguishing and pitting one group against the other in Christ. yet HR does. Dispy theology does it too (slandering the church as teaching non-existent "replacement theology"). the churhc is the church is the church.....the Lord's people jew & gentile.

the HR thing is anti-gentile which is unbiblical.

before the messianic movement converted jews simply identified as christians! and in the process, as Jesus told us would happen to all of us, we had to leave our (hostile) families, etc. but today you have people groups from all walks making divisions the Lord died to extinguish.

because jews formerly just identified as christians, we have the misguided belief among HR proponents that there's this great awakening in the jewish world to Christ that didn't exist before 1948 or such nonsense. jews simply USED TO call themselves Christians!

oh well....to each their own. but when it enters NT doctrine and starts to look for ways to CHANGE what is written, houston we got problems. the don't stop at cultural lifestyles. it turns into CHRISTIANS ARE UNDER THE LAW. but you know that.

lol.

i have found that virtually all the HR ppl and such believe what the dispies do - that we are returning to a mosaic system with jews (true israel supposedly....lol) as the ruling nation. what gentile believers are doing i have no clue - lol.

if they could see the amil position, and grasp that the few OT passages they drag to our future are long fulfilled, maybe this silliness would stop.

by SarahM777 Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:06 pm

And just at the time you think they can't come up with something else that goes against scripture,sure enough they do. Just had a man say that we are NOT to celebrate the Lord's supper but that we as Christians are suppose to celebrate the Passover and the feast of unleaven bread. Now we're suppose to go against one of Jesus commands? Really? Mad

by AVoice Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:50 am

One of the most destructive heresies plaguing believers is the demonic assertion that what they do, their works, their actions as believers, will have nothing to do with where they will end up for eternity.

by zone Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:20 am

AVoice wrote:One of the most destructive heresies plaguing believers is the demonic assertion that what they do, their works, their actions as believers, will have nothing to do with where they will end up for eternity.

Voice, i actually agree with you. our actions as believers are spelled out in the sheep and goats judgment.
but what you may not have noticed is that the sheep and goats are separated by what KIND they are first, before their works are mentioned.
and what Jesus SAYS is that the goats did NOT care for the sick naked and imprisoned - His brothers.

by Angela53510 Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:27 am

One of the most destructive heresies plaguing the church today is the lie that we must do works to be saved.

We are saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross, Then because of the love God showed us, we are urged from within by the Holy Spirit to take care of others, the sick, those in prison etc.

Voice, you seem to be very confused about theology and what the Bible says about salvation. My thought is to read the Bible, and let the Words of God speak to you. Instead of spouting the dogma of your church.

by zone Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:35 am

Angela53510 wrote:One of the most destructive heresies plaguing the church today is the lie that we must do works to be saved.

We are saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross, Then because of the love God showed us, we are urged from within by the Holy Spirit to take care of others, the sick, those in prison etc.

Voice, you seem to be very confused about theology and what the Bible says about salvation. My thought is to read the Bible, and let the Words of God speak to you. Instead of spouting the dogma of your church.

voice is clinging to RCC dogma.
i'm afraid the Titanic has sunk.

Voice, i know you have been trained to distrust protestantism....but don't mistake "evangelicalism" which IS mostly apostate and ignorant for reformed or non-catholic ideas.

you know your church formally repudidated the doctrine of purgatory.

by SarahM777 Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:49 am

Angela53510 wrote:One of the most destructive heresies plaguing the church today is the lie that we must do works to be saved.

We are saved because of Christ's finished work on the cross, Then because of the love God showed us, we are urged from within by the Holy Spirit to take care of others, the sick, those in prison etc.

Voice, you seem to be very confused about theology and what the Bible says about salvation. My thought is to read the Bible, and let the Words of God speak to you. Instead of spouting the dogma of your church.

And how often is it missed what Jesus,Paul and John tied it altogether with? It always goes back to love. It is so clear and so simple even a little child can understand it. Smile

1 John 4

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Jesus says that they will know we are His disciples by the LOVE we have one for another.

Love is the plumb line.

by AVoice Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:20 am

Yes, love does things. And love does NOT do things. What we do determines who our father is, as Jesus laid out to the Pharisees, who were hypocrites. Grace enables us to live righteously in love. And love will speak the truth even if it hurts.
The delusion that what we do has nothing to do with where we will spend eternity is EXACTLY what Satan wants people to believe.

by SarahM777 Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:09 am

Sorry but that is the same mistake that a lot of people make. We are DECLARED righteous by faith and faith alone. And that goes all the way back to Genesis. Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Many people do good deeds but they are NEVER declared righteous because of unbelief. Jesus even says to many who are casting out demons etc DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU. Time after time after time Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their UNBELIEF. No where in the Bible can you find where works will declare anyone righteous. It's NOT there.

Anytime the Bible speaks of works it is AN OUTCOME of faith. It is the point that James is trying to make. If one has saving faith then what comes out should be works,if one does NOT have works then one needs to EXAMINE themselves to make sure they are in the faith in the first place. Works CAN NOT SAVE YOU.

by AVoice Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:50 pm

My context is obviously works that are done by a believer who is sound in their faith. Preaching that a believer must become circumcised is an example of a believers work who is not sound in their faith.
The declaration of righteousness is coupled with the anticipation that the person will henceforth do what is right. That declaration as spoken to Abraham had a fulfilment when he did right. The defeatist modern gospel loses sight of the fact that there is substance behind when God grants justification by faith; there will be a fulfilment of that declaration, hence a man (a believer) is justified by works and not by faith only.
You say I made a mistake. Then you should be able to identify it.

by SarahM777 Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:23 am

Go back and read Genesis 15,that is what Paul is quoting. There is not one thing that God required of Abraham at that point because it was dependant on God

Genesis 15

15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:
“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.[b]”
2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

God told Abraham he would have an heir of his own flesh and blood and he believed God and it credited to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS. There is NOT ONE WORK AT ALL IN THERE.

by AVoice Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:04 am

Are you denying that there is a fulfilment by good works of the decree that righteousness is accounted to the person upon whom the decree is made?
Just answer yes or no.

by SarahM777 Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:10 am

AVoice wrote:Are you denying that there is a fulfilment by good works of the decree that righteousness is accounted to the person upon whom the decree is made?
Just answer yes or no.

Umm your question is so jumbled I can't make heads or tails of it. Please rephrase it.

by AVoice Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:43 pm

Righteousness was accounted to Abraham for his faith. Was there a fulfilment of that accounting? In other words, did his actual righteous obedience afterward equate to being a fulfilment of the righteousness accounted to him? Are you denying that the actual righteousness he did afterward was a fulfilment of the fact that righteousness that had been accounted to him?
Yes or no?

by SarahM777 Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:22 pm

Huh????? Again the question is not clear,it is stated in such a way that it comes as a trap question.

by **strangelove** Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:15 pm

AVoice wrote:Are you denying that there is a fulfilment by good works of the decree that righteousness is accounted to the person upon whom the decree is made?
Just answer yes or no.

Say what?

by AVoice Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:50 pm

²¹Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
²²Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
²³And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

His obedience manifested the fulfillment of the scripture that says Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:07 am

Yes, faith brings forth some good works that God Himself has planned for us. So what?

by SarahM777 Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:48 am

AVoice wrote:²¹Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
²²Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
²³And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

His obedience manifested the fulfillment of the scripture that says Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

First you have taken that verse OUT OF CONTEXT. When you do that you mess up what their point really is.

Jame 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?

James is very clear that it is FAITH that saves. His point is if one has a living,breathing saving faith it will be seen by the FRUITS of that faith. What he is not saying is that one is SAVED by their works.

by AVoice Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:52 pm

So a person need not repent in order to be saved.
James' initial question is can faith alone save without any work. The answer, after a series of examples to make it so simple for the reader, is an overwhelming NO. He concludes by saying 'ye see then brethren how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only'.
The question can faith alone save is answered with, no, justification is by faith AND works. Faith first, followed by the works that a sound faith produces. Being saved and being justified are used by James as synonyms.
Paul did not contradict this. Paul warns that we will receive according to our works. Jesus did the same thing. Peter as well. God is not a respecter of persons. How we live determines where we go for eternity. It is amazing that this foundational principal of Christianity is denied by those embracing a Nicolaitane style doctrine. It is no wonder that Jesus hates that doctrine.

by SarahM777 Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:33 pm

AVoice wrote:So a person need not repent in order to be saved.
James' initial question is can faith alone save without any work. The answer, after a series of examples to make it so simple for the reader, is an overwhelming NO. He concludes by saying 'ye see then brethren how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only'.
The question can faith alone save is answered with, no, justification is by faith AND works. Faith first, followed by the works that a sound faith produces. Being saved and being justified are used by James as synonyms.
Paul did not contradict this. Paul warns that we will receive according to our works. Jesus did the same thing. Peter as well. God is not a respecter of persons. How we live determines where we go for eternity. It is amazing that this foundational principal of Christianity is denied by those embracing a Nicolaitane style doctrine. It is no wonder that Jesus hates that doctrine.

Didn't say that people don't need to repent. But even BEING able to repent starts at FAITH. Paul is very clear that WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Your repentance means NOTHING without faith. Works WITHOUT faith do NOT please God either. Faith MUST be there in order to please God in the FIRST PLACE. Works that please God COME OUT OF FAITH.

by **strangelove** Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:18 pm

And we can't even take credit for our faith. That's something God gives every man his measure of.

All glory to God.

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