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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by AVoice Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:27 pm
Sarah,
Saying that a person's deeds, (a person who believes, their deeds), have nothing to do with where they will spend eternity is what the "saved, not of works" gang are saying.
So then repentance cannot be required.
Do you want to change your position and say "saved, not of works except repentance"? Since without repentance a person cannot be saved, therefore repentence is a necessary work to be saved. Will you admit that repentance is a necessary work to be saved?
The truth is that Eph 2:8,9 is taken out of context in a very immature way by many "Christian" leaders. Works, like repentance are very much necessary to do to be saved. The context is showing that the changed (saved) state a believer finds himself is to be accredited to grace even though he consciously and willingly has obeyed and is obeying. Paul is exhorting that the saved need to give credit to God's grace working in them both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Someone please explain to Strangelove how that works. Just because a Christian willingly does from the heart and his own conscience the things Jesus wants, this does not mean these are his "own works". These are accredited to grace working in the believer; grace received as the result of believing. The believer gives God the glory for his new changed life; changed by grace, given from believing.
Saying that a person's deeds, (a person who believes, their deeds), have nothing to do with where they will spend eternity is what the "saved, not of works" gang are saying.
So then repentance cannot be required.
Do you want to change your position and say "saved, not of works except repentance"? Since without repentance a person cannot be saved, therefore repentence is a necessary work to be saved. Will you admit that repentance is a necessary work to be saved?
The truth is that Eph 2:8,9 is taken out of context in a very immature way by many "Christian" leaders. Works, like repentance are very much necessary to do to be saved. The context is showing that the changed (saved) state a believer finds himself is to be accredited to grace even though he consciously and willingly has obeyed and is obeying. Paul is exhorting that the saved need to give credit to God's grace working in them both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Someone please explain to Strangelove how that works. Just because a Christian willingly does from the heart and his own conscience the things Jesus wants, this does not mean these are his "own works". These are accredited to grace working in the believer; grace received as the result of believing. The believer gives God the glory for his new changed life; changed by grace, given from believing.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by SarahM777 Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:06 pm
Sorry because you ARE NOT getting the distinction between the two. You are NOT EVER going to be saved by any works. We are saved by faith alone. Even the works we do that are pleasing to God MUST start WITH FAITH. Even repentance starts with a MEASURE of faith. All works can do is show whether that faith is alive or not or real or not,but they ARE NOT the basis or vehicle by which we are SAVED.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by strangelove Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:18 am
AVoice wrote:Someone please explain to Strangelove how that works. Just because a Christian willingly does from the heart and his own conscience the things Jesus wants, this does not mean these are his "own works".
Why do I need that explaining to me? Where have I said that my good works are not accredited to God?
AV wrote:These are accredited to grace working in the believer; grace received as the result of believing. The believer gives God the glory for his new changed life; changed by grace, given from believing.
You have it so wrong it's untrue. Grace means a favor from God. As a result of God's Grace we believe because He draws us to Him and gives us faith. The Holy Spirit enters us spiritually which results in good works which God has ordained us to walk in.
How complicated is this?
Grace (an act of God) -> Faith (given to us by God by His Grace) -> Holy Spirit (given to us by God by His Grace) -> Good works (accredited to God because everything started with Him giving us the tools to do them).
You don't have "grace received as the result of believing"...that's totally backward. It starts with Grace.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by strangelove Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:29 am
AV wrote:The truth is that Eph 2:8,9 is taken out of context in a very immature way by many "Christian" leaders. Works, like repentance are very much necessary to do to be saved. The context is showing that the changed (saved) state a believer finds himself is to be accredited to grace even though he consciously and willingly has obeyed and is obeying. Paul is exhorting that the saved need to give credit to God's grace working in them both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
What?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It says right there..that being saved is.........not of works.
How about you read this:
Romans 3:20-28 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by VelikaBuna Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:03 am
"What?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It says right there..that being saved is.........not of works.
How about you read this:
Romans 3:20-28 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
This is talking about the works of LAW, not all works. Both faith and works are needed. Faith is a free gift (see the parable of the talents) but faith ALONE will get you nowhere without the resulting works which proceed out of our free will to do good works, otherwise our faith which is a free gift is like (see the parable of the seeds). Therefore for salvation both are needed and necessary, both faith and works. As St. Paul explains above, works of the law are not necessary, therefore we as Christians do not observe the old Jewish laws, but we do observe the moral laws as stated in the ten commandments.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It says right there..that being saved is.........not of works.
How about you read this:
Romans 3:20-28 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
This is talking about the works of LAW, not all works. Both faith and works are needed. Faith is a free gift (see the parable of the talents) but faith ALONE will get you nowhere without the resulting works which proceed out of our free will to do good works, otherwise our faith which is a free gift is like (see the parable of the seeds). Therefore for salvation both are needed and necessary, both faith and works. As St. Paul explains above, works of the law are not necessary, therefore we as Christians do not observe the old Jewish laws, but we do observe the moral laws as stated in the ten commandments.
Last edited by VelikaBuna on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mistake)
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by AVoice Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:08 am
So according to Strangelove repentance is not necessary to be saved?
The fact is that we are saved by works that grace enables us to do as the result of believing. Such as repentance, without which no man can be saved. The glory goes to his grace, freely given by believing. Grace has a definition. It is NOT what Strangelove thinks it is. Grace can be seen as it was seen in Jesus; "we beheld his glory...full of grace and truth". Grace is responsible for works of faith so to misuse Eph 2:8,9 and disconnect works from grace is the result of simply not understanding.
The fact is that we are saved by works that grace enables us to do as the result of believing. Such as repentance, without which no man can be saved. The glory goes to his grace, freely given by believing. Grace has a definition. It is NOT what Strangelove thinks it is. Grace can be seen as it was seen in Jesus; "we beheld his glory...full of grace and truth". Grace is responsible for works of faith so to misuse Eph 2:8,9 and disconnect works from grace is the result of simply not understanding.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by Angela53510 Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:48 am
Romans has to be read in context. When you pull the third chapter out, the one on sin and the evil it creates, you lose the whole message of Romans, which is grace saves.
"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works." Romans 11:30-32
I hope you notice that Israel fell short for one reason - because it did not pursue righteousness by faith in Christ, but fell short because they pursued works, by which no person is saved!
Grace is all that is needed. Works come out of grace.
I pity anyone that thinks we need to do works to be saved. It is a horrible road to travel, never knowing if what you have worked at is good enough. I am thankful to be able to say that Jesus paid it all for me.
"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith inthe powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." Col. 2:11-15
Nope, no works in that passage!
"For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Nope, no works in that passage!
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works," Hebrews 10:19-24
Finally, some works! But they come AFTER salvation. They are a result of Jesus death on the cross!
You simply cannot earn your salvation with works. One of the biggest lies and deceptive heresies out there!
"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works." Romans 11:30-32
I hope you notice that Israel fell short for one reason - because it did not pursue righteousness by faith in Christ, but fell short because they pursued works, by which no person is saved!
Grace is all that is needed. Works come out of grace.
I pity anyone that thinks we need to do works to be saved. It is a horrible road to travel, never knowing if what you have worked at is good enough. I am thankful to be able to say that Jesus paid it all for me.
"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith inthe powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." Col. 2:11-15
Nope, no works in that passage!
"For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Nope, no works in that passage!
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works," Hebrews 10:19-24
Finally, some works! But they come AFTER salvation. They are a result of Jesus death on the cross!
You simply cannot earn your salvation with works. One of the biggest lies and deceptive heresies out there!
Angela53510- Posts : 19
Join date : 2014-04-08
Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by VelikaBuna Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:59 am
Angela.
You have misunderstood just about everything you wrote. All it says is...do not divorce faith from works. Both are required for growth. Works alone or faith alone fall short. So anyone who claims that they are saved without both are wrong in their understanding. Without Jesus who accomplishes grace of salvation for us, salvation would be impossible no matter the works. Faith is not something stagnant, it is a gift like a seed that needs to grow unto salvation through good works and moral living. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp? Why all this ALONE reductionism, which is not supported by anything scriptural when understood properly. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works," Hebrews 10:19-24"
This says it plainly, one needs to improve and grow in faith through good works. One cannot say I got faith alone but no good works and be justified, because even Satan has faith alone, but he lacks good works. Good works are those works which one does for the glory of God with free will and even when they are difficult, our free will is always the key to good works, we are not zombies.
Read also the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation, how Jesus warns various churches who have faith already, but are falling short in their actions or works.
Most of the works condemned in the scriptures are the works of the law, since there was an initial confusion if the Christians were still under the law. So your examples are referring to the works of the Jewish law.
You have misunderstood just about everything you wrote. All it says is...do not divorce faith from works. Both are required for growth. Works alone or faith alone fall short. So anyone who claims that they are saved without both are wrong in their understanding. Without Jesus who accomplishes grace of salvation for us, salvation would be impossible no matter the works. Faith is not something stagnant, it is a gift like a seed that needs to grow unto salvation through good works and moral living. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp? Why all this ALONE reductionism, which is not supported by anything scriptural when understood properly. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works," Hebrews 10:19-24"
This says it plainly, one needs to improve and grow in faith through good works. One cannot say I got faith alone but no good works and be justified, because even Satan has faith alone, but he lacks good works. Good works are those works which one does for the glory of God with free will and even when they are difficult, our free will is always the key to good works, we are not zombies.
Read also the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation, how Jesus warns various churches who have faith already, but are falling short in their actions or works.
Most of the works condemned in the scriptures are the works of the law, since there was an initial confusion if the Christians were still under the law. So your examples are referring to the works of the Jewish law.
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Re: Whats the most Apostate thing You've Heard from a Christian?
by strangelove Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:24 pm
AVoice wrote:So according to Strangelove repentance is not necessary to be saved?
Absolutely!
And yet...all true Christians who have been saved......repent!
Doesn't that just make your head hurt AV?!
LOL
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The Two Most Apostate Things I Have Ever Heard
by outsidethecamp Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:08 pm
That when Jesus returns to the physical city of Jerusalem, all Jews "will see Him, whom they pierced" and be saved instantly. 
Begs a lot of questions, not the least of which is why won't any Gentiles be saved if this incredible event is going to take place? There are Gentiles living among Jews in Israel.
Also, that there are two people of God:
The Church of Jesus Christ and the geo-political, apostate nation called Israel in the Middle East.
Begs a lot of questions, not the least of which is why won't any Gentiles be saved if this incredible event is going to take place? There are Gentiles living among Jews in Israel.
Also, that there are two people of God:
The Church of Jesus Christ and the geo-political, apostate nation called Israel in the Middle East.
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